Changes to Peter Pan's Flight at Magic Kingdom

OG Runner

Well-Known Member
Mr. Toad doesn’t die and go to hell. The strength of the Fantasyland dark rides was that they didn’t just follow the movies exactly.
Really? Then why make the change now? The ride has been in operation for over 50 years with that scene included.
They not only changed the scene but the overall appearance of the "individuals" in the scene. Nice try but that was
kind of a "lazy" response.
 

aladdin2007

Well-Known Member
I’m not sure if this has been addressed, but the “Fire, Mr.Smee!” command from Hook on the small pirate ship (which hasn’t worked for months) was still not working this morning when I rode.

Has it been permanently eliminated?
good question, have a feeling it has, anyone know? ...did you like the new scene?....I feel it looks nice but it is bothering to me now its not from the original movie.
 

Bocabear

Well-Known Member
If there's one thing this attraction could really use, it's a complete redo of the sound design.
I would agree with that... The voices sound like placeholder dubs....which I guess someone said they were... It never sounded right. Maybe creating sound zones with different tracks ... Best case would be something like Shanghai did... that sound and score for the attraction is excellent....
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
Like I said, in a private space between friends and family, we can understand the context of jokes, but for a business or for a public setting like a theme park aimed to children, it makes perfect sense to remove offensive references rather than hoping people get it. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
I understand and agree with your point.
I still disagree. It's why standup comedy was one of the last areas where people could say things that in other formats would be disavowed... People can take in context and intent if they want to. And in formats like art or theme parks... you can actually explain things with people instead of acting like its presence alone is going to cause the rot of civilizaiton.

I find the lack of comprehension or dialog on topics far more destructive. The lack of knowledge, not the mocking of someone, is what causes harm.
I understand where your point is coming from.

I will be 53 at the end of this month. When I was a kid, the societal consciousness did not see red “Indians” as offensive. In fact, native Americans were still often portrayed as “enemies.” Hey kids, play cowboys & Indians where you pretend to shoot each other. That was the norm. That was the lore.

Walt did not set out to make racist or racially insensitive films. That’s just how it was. Native Americans did not have enough of a voice yet to have their objections heard, much like with sports mascots. Also, they are not a monolith - some apparently either don’t mind, or not enough to bring it up.

I could be offended by mob caricatures of Italians. Some Italian Americans are. I’m not particularly worried about it as I’ve seen it portrayed so far.

What I’d like to get across to younger folks is while you can intellectually learn new things, when you’ve grown up in 20+ years of what’s “acceptable” or not, and that shifts, it’s not easy to completely erase the way you were brought up.

There are gay people who have internalized homophobia because of what they were taught growing up, even though they know, intellectually, it’s nonsense. So we can see it goes beyond flipping a switch sometimes.

The European ethnicities used to make fun of each other in a more familial or good natured (but still stereotypical) way, but it was more biting against black, Hispanic, and Native Americans. Let’s be real about that.

We grew up navigating all that. Stereotypes were the default, not the exception. We referred to people as black, red, and yellow (and much worse.) The n-word was still on TV (and cable didn’t exist yet.)

You can understand something without condoning it, and while acknowledging it’s no longer socially acceptable - for valid reasons.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
Really? Then why make the change now? The ride has been in operation for over 50 years with that scene included.
They not only changed the scene but the overall appearance of the "individuals" in the scene. Nice try but that was
kind of a "lazy" response.

Do you think people shouldn’t learn?

If you met a friend everyone called “small fry,” and you called them that for years, and then they confided in you that it makes them feel bad…wouldn’t you stop saying it? Isn’t that the decent thing to do?

Looking at a catalog dating back to when we as a society were less aware of and sensitive to certain things, and attempting to correct that, is the decent thing to do. It’s also smart if you want your business and art to remain relevant.
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
I would agree with that... The voices sound like placeholder dubs....which I guess someone said they were... It never sounded right. Maybe creating sound zones with different tracks ... Best case would be something like Shanghai did... that sound and score for the attraction is excellent....
I think have some "take off" music leading into the first city scene based on You Can Fly; thereafter, utilize one continuous orchestral loop based on Second Star to the Right, but introduce different instruments at different parts of the ride, like tubular bells over Big Ben and the city, harps around the Mermaid Lagoon, shamanic drums at the Neverland Tribe, an accordion at the pirate ship, a tick-tock to the beat at the crocodile, etc. Then just extend the length of the dialogue tracks so that you're not hearing the same exclamations multiple times.
 

OG Runner

Well-Known Member
Do you think people shouldn’t learn?

If you met a friend everyone called “small fry,” and you called them that for years, and then they confided in you that it makes them feel bad…wouldn’t you stop saying it? Isn’t that the decent thing to do?

Looking at a catalog dating back to when we as a society were less aware of and sensitive to certain things, and attempting to correct that, is the decent thing to do. It’s also smart if you want your business and art to remain relevant.
It was a damn animated movie. It wasn't a statement on society or a comment on their race. So should we start remaking every movie that is over 50 years old and then destroying the originals. Societal norms change but it doesn't mean history can be rewritten.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
It was a damn animated movie. It wasn't a statement on society or a comment on their race. So should we start remaking every movie that is over 50 years old and then destroying the originals. Societal norms change but it doesn't mean history can be rewritten.
Yes, it’s an animated movie, not “history.”

Nobody is destroying it.

It wasn’t meant to be a comment on their race, but it was, because of a lack of awareness on the part of the creators.

You can love, appreciate, and respect an artist while acknowledging something they did that was socially acceptable at the time hasn’t aged well.

But once you acknowledge it, why would you continue to promote the thing that hasn’t aged well? Why would you keep calling your friend small fry?

It’s a lot easier to edit the attraction than the movie. Why subject native Americans to exaggerated stereotypes of themselves while they are out trying to enjoy a theme park? No one loses anything by changing it, but some people will avoid that feeling you get when others think it’s ok to portray you like that in public. That’s worth it.

I’ve been subjected to that in different ways. I remember trying to enjoy myself shopping in a record store (my happy place) in California during the height of the gay marriage debate - another situation where older sensibilities haven’t aged well. I’m gay and was married, and had to listen to random people shopping for records who just started trashing gay people and gay marriage, including all the distortions and nonsense. I tried to keep shopping and ignore it, but couldn’t help feeling upset. At the very least, it ruined my planned good time.

I politely asked them to stop. They took a beat, and one said, “You can’t tell us what to talk about.” I said, “Of course I can’t, that’s why I’m asking you nicely. I’m just shopping for music, hoping to not be put down the whole time.” They stopped.

You can’t make that kind of request on a theme park attraction; and if you did, nothing could be done about it.

So it was absolutely the right thing to do to modify the attraction. That should be obvious. And it should be no big deal to you.
 

Mr. Sullivan

Well-Known Member
The new scene did not appear in the movie, which is what the ride has always represented. It is just another attempt by Disney to rewrite their history, because they are afraid someone could not deal with the depiction of Native Americans (Indians) from a 1953 animated movie. Honestly, I go not really care. It doesn't change the ride any more than Tiana's changed Splash Mountain.
They're not changing their history. All of the stuff with the natives is still in the movie. It isn't going anywhere. They've in fact put a disclaimer before it in most modern releases making a note that stuff within hasn't aged well precisely so they don't have to edit it out of the movie.

What they've done here in the ride is no changing of history. They simply made an alteration to a scene in a ride in a theme park that attractions more than 17 million people annually, many of whom are going to be Native American people who shouldn't have to be faced with a racist caricature of their people on their $7,000 Disney vacation.

Theme park rides are not films. Whereas a film is intended to be a snapshot of a moment that is frozen in the moment it was made, theme park rides are an adaptable, physical medium. They're made to be changed and should change as times do and people get more educated. No one designs a theme park attraction thinking it's not going to have any sort of updating or changing for the entire duration of it's lifespan. Even Walt Disney himself didn't think that. He tinkered and changed things around often after a ride was opened to find something he liked better.

But really, this is not a new or even recent thing. One of the animators of Peter Pan has acknowledged that they knew how they were depicting Natives in the film was not right even then and he has called it a large regret of his career. This conversation has been happening for literal decades, and they just now in 2024 made any sort of direct acknowledgement of it.

I have my own opinions on the new scene, but frankly, it's not my place to debate it because I'm not a Native American, nor am I related to any. I'm a white man. What I say or think about it really doesn't matter. What real Native individuals think about it is what matters, and truly I think it's best that we don't argue with how they wish to speak about how their own people are represented.
 

Bocabear

Well-Known Member
Epcot Native American or Indigenous Peoples Pavilion? Showcase culture art and history... Replace the Refreshment Outpost with a pavilion featuring an interactive museum, Shops, restaurant and QS. Live entertainment dancing and storytelling.... It could be beautiful..
 

Raineman

Well-Known Member
I find it interesting to compare the reactions from this change to the redhead scene change in PoTC a few years ago. This change is being lauded as being more "historically accurate" than the original. But the redhead scene change on Pirates made the scene less historically accurate, but some people were applauding that change-pirates were not nice people, and did engage in human trafficking (and did not waste time selling chickens). So we really have to decide-do we want historically accurate attractions based on animated films, or do we want fantasized depictions? It seems a bit hypocritical to say one is ok but the other is not.
 

Ice Gator

Well-Known Member
That's because deep down the discourse is actually about whether or not you are okay with change.
which is ripe coming from Disney park fans of all people who preach about progression and Walt never wanting the parks to become museums

This one is just funny to me because they literally just replaced the Native American scene with another Native American scene. I’m lost at what the problem is or how the old one was better as a scene that lasts 5 seconds in a 2 minute ride.
 

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