Changes to Peter Pan's Flight at Magic Kingdom

[Dear Prudence]

Exceeds expectations but if you’re looking for problems, you’ll find them.

You don't even have to look that hard, they're glaring lol

 

[Ghost93]

The Tiger Lily is fine but the rest of the characters do not fit the artistic style and stick out like a sore thumb and look completely out of place. Just Tiger Lily on her own would have sufficed, or just removing the scene and replacing it with a brand new one would have worked fine. The whole ride is completely dated and needs gutting and redoing in the style of Shanghai's or Tokyo's Fantasy Springs Peter Pan ride anyway.

I agree about the whole ride being dated. I think the gist of the ride is fine, but all of the animatronics need to be swapped out and it needs new lighting and effects.

 

[Sneaky]

Exceeds expectations but if you’re looking for problems, you’ll find them.

The wdwmagic way!

 

[Disneyfan1234]

Is the ride supposed to still be a ride through the movie? Where is her Dad? We don’t meet a grandmother in the movie. Is she still in the boat with Captain Hook some he kidnapped her? Are we wanting it to be a modern depiction or a ride through of the 1950s movie?

 

[Dear Prudence]

Is the ride supposed to still be a ride through the movie? Where is her Dad? We don’t meet a grandmother in the movie. Is she still in the boat with Captain Hook some he kidnapped her? Are we wanting it to be a modern depiction or a ride through of the 1950s movie?

I haven't seen the live action remake, but maybe it's based on this?

The 1950s movie got one thing and one thing only correct, and that was Tiger Lily's UNBOTHEREDness when Hook is interrogating her. She is unbothered and refuses to speak. If that's not the most Algonquin Girl Sh*t I've ever seen....

 

[Mr. Sullivan]

Everybody's arguing about whether or not it's offensive, but the fact of the matter is the new characters look like garbage.

Are you really saying these brand new figures look somehow worse than the stumpy, big nosed, ugly ones from the 70s?

 

[SpectroMagician]

"This section of the ride has faced criticism for its outdated and stereotypical depictions of Native American characters."

Well we literally have photographs of native americans looking exactly like the the ones that were there before. So if by "outdated" you mean accurate for the time of the story but not how current natives look then I guess so.... Apparently accurate historical depictions are no long ok at Disney and only completely modern ones are. There was nothing at all negative in how it showed them in the scene before.

If they spent some money on actually making rides like Tiana actually run instead of stuff like this then the parks may not be empty right now.

 

[Clamman73]

Hmmmm…it’s nice but they changed the beating of the drum beat.

 

[Sneaky]

You all were complaining they would remove them and they still remained? Why are you still unhappy?

 

[bwr827]

You all were complaining they would remove them and they still remained? Why are you still unhappy?

Par for the WDW Magic course.

 

[Sneaky]

Par for the WDW Magic course.

Watch as some people on this site make muppetvisions possible demise somehow about splash mountain and Tiana, like they do with everything.

 

[ThePhoenicians]

"This section of the ride has faced criticism for its outdated and stereotypical depictions of Native American characters."

Well we literally have photographs of native americans looking exactly like the the ones that were there before. So if by "outdated" you mean accurate for the time of the story but not how current natives look then I guess so.... Apparently accurate historical depictions are no long ok at Disney and only completely modern ones are. There was nothing at all negative in how it showed them in the scene before.

If they spent some money on actually making rides like Tiana actually run instead of stuff like this then the parks may not be empty right now.

The photos you cite, and many of the ones most Americans have in their mind of what Natives look like, are often a heavily romanticized view of Native life and weren't accurate to the time they were taken. The most famous example of this is by the photographer Edward Curtis, a non-Native.

This article shares some really interesting nuance about the context for these photos. It's important to keep this in mind when we use these as examples to show or talk about Natives.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I'm usually team "everyone is too sensitive about everything and most of this stuff doesn't need to change" but this one seems... fine?

 

[Erdago]

You all were complaining they would remove them and they still remained? Why are you still unhappy?

Because any fandom isn’t a monolith and for every problem (presuming everyone will even agree there is a problem) will have a spectrum of ideal solutions, and any option by Disney could only appeal to certain subsections. For example, no matter how well done this replacement would or would not be, it would still be too much of a change for someone who feels any changes are too much and that the new version wouldn’t neatly fit into the attraction the way the originals do (for better or worse). Meanwhile, Disney keeping in a cartoon generalization of the Indians likely would be little comfort to those who feel that the best solution is to remove the Indians, and feel that even a less inappropriate version won’t be that much better. Does strong execution of an idea help sway some on different sides, sure. However, there will always be those who fundamentally don’t like the concept, and execution likely would do little for them.

Note: This isn’t meant to say any side is inherently right or wrong, or that any particular person is correct or incorrect in their feelings. Neither is this a call out about anything with Peter Pan (I’m only using this ride as we’re in this thread, you could easily replace it with countless cases). Every case has their own nuances, and all sides have both reasonable people with nuanced and reasonable expectations, obnoxious trolls who only ruin discourse, and many other states in between. The end point is that as long as Disney does something that requires any creative changes, this dissent will always exist.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Okay, I realize that there's a knowledge gap here for most folks, and as a Native person, I understand this isn't everyone's wheelhouse, but one of the issues here is people don't understand where stereotypes begin and end. What looks benign to most folks or an upgrade to most folks isn't. Because so much of what people "know" or think of Native people is rooted in myth and stereotypes. What looks respectfully done to non-Native people is a joke to a Native person. I'm very hard to be patient with this, but this isn't that much better than before. This is just a "nicer" stereotype. If this were done to any other ethnicity, people would be screaming. (And I am not putting up ethnicities against each other, I don't play that, I am just pointing out the hypocrisy.)

And, trust me, I understand, this isn't everyone's wheelhouse. We have a whole holiday in the US dedicated to the weird Happy Meal picnic myth. Most people do not know any Native people. I am trying to be gentle and meet people where they are.

Also, Tiger Lily is supposed to be doing Fancy Shawl, not ice skating. Which would be more obvious if they had done it right.

You seem to be confused about Animation as a genre. Myth and stereotype is the whole point. Things are over-simplified *on purpose.* It's a storytelling technique as old as Agamemnon and Gilgamesh and Deer Woman, and older. It's not something that Europeans imposed on other cultures as a form of colonialism, it's a universal part of EVERY culture's storytelling tradition.

Oh and the "First Thanksgiving at Plymouth" was a real thing and it was a feast and celebration that happened for three days in November 1621. Oh and feast of gratitude are ALSO pretty universal across cultures.

 

[voodoo321]

You all were complaining they would remove them and they still remained? Why are you still unhappy?

Remove them and change out the scene entirely if you must. I disagree, but by altering it in the fashion that they did tarnishes a simple yet beautiful ride that works, and is very popular, because of the combination of the ride system, pacing and art direction that matches the work of the animators from the classic movie cohesively throughout.

Instead the hacks of modern Disney chose to put their stamp on it disregarding the work of people, like Ward Kimball, which they should be studying and not scribbling over.

 

[haveyoumetmark]

"This section of the ride has faced criticism for its outdated and stereotypical depictions of Native American characters."

Well we literally have photographs of native americans looking exactly like the the ones that were there before. So if by "outdated" you mean accurate for the time of the story but not how current natives look then I guess so.... Apparently accurate historical depictions are no long ok at Disney and only completely modern ones are. There was nothing at all negative in how it showed them in the scene before.

If they spent some money on actually making rides like Tiana actually run instead of stuff like this then the parks may not be empty right now.

Have you taken a look at the recent attendance data that just came out? I’d hate to ignore the facts just because they contradict whatever narrative you’re attempting to push here…

 

[wdwmagic]

If they spent some money on actually making rides like Tiana actually run instead of stuff like this then the parks may not be empty right now.

Well Magic Kingdom is the number 1 most visited theme park in the world, but that is for another thread.
Disney Parks Dominate 2023 TEA-AECOM Global Attendance Report, EPCOT Sees Significant Growth

 

[Minthorne]

I’m just upset they still haven’t added mermen.

 

[Comped]

The photos you cite, and many of the ones most Americans have in their mind of what Natives look like, are often a heavily romanticized view of Native life and weren't accurate to the time they were taken. The most famous example of this is by the photographer Edward Curtis, a non-Native.

This article shares some really interesting nuance about the context for these photos. It's important to keep this in mind when we use these as examples to show or talk about Natives.

Even that article uses very carefully shot photos as other examples of what modern Indian look like. The photos you look down on weren't fabricated. They weren't given new clothes, or told to do anything different than they normally would. Was it 100% accurate? I doubt it, but then again, nothing ever is. They're certainly better than the alternative, which is to have no photos of them at all... People will learn to appreciate something they can see far more than if they cannot. Doesn't hurt the argument made behind them (wanting to preserve groups of people with dwindling numbers and traditional ways of doing things, for future generations who likely wouldn't be so lucky), if the photographer was white, Indian, or any other race or demographic. Most people don't complain historians are mostly old white dudes...

You seem to be confused about Animation as a genre. Myth and stereotype is the whole point. Things are over-simplified *on purpose.* It's a storytelling technique as old as Agamemnon and Gilgamesh and Deer Woman, and older. It's not something that Europeans imposed on other cultures as a form of colonialism, it's a universal part of EVERY culture's storytelling tradition.

Oh and the "First Thanksgiving at Plymouth" was a real thing and it was a feast and celebration that happened for three days in November 1621. Oh and feast of gratitude are ALSO pretty universal across cultures.

The rock at Plymouth sucks though. At least according to people who went there. I grew up in MA and somehow never went on a trip there.