Changes at DTD

[lazyboy97o]

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim that Disney lies and that PI closed because of poor management.....

That proof is provided through the mechanism of reputation. Disney is not going to openly discuss the motivations. The people who have talked about those motivations do so without stating sources, as they are confidential, but have built a reputation that encouraged and built the trust of others. A continually hostile and arrogant tone does not work towards this end. All that said, the local area paper did report on Downtown Disney executives visiting with Schussler Creative and even has video of the event.

 

[Evil Genius]

Okay lets break down what you said...

Look at restaurants...many times the bar area makes money but the food area does not...so instead of closing down just the dining area they close the whole restaurant down...that is a better analogy than a mall since in a mall they are all separately run and independent shops where as in PI they are all owned and operated by the same people.

So you named three people who have no real claim to their OPINIONS. I want real sources....

Civil? I made a claim supported by facts and yet you attacked using no facts. I am right, i really dont care if you dont believe me because you guys remind me of typical Internet folk who believe anything that a website tells you....

That's the sticking point however...you haven't presented any actual facts. You're tossing anecdotal evidence around and proclaiming it as the gospel but you've yet to cite anything that can be seen as hard proof.

Whereas others have cited confirmed WDW insiders with fantastic track records that frequent these boards and have been around for ages.

Here are some facts:

1) PI attendance was in fact declining. TDO removed the entrace ticket and attendance increased...to a degree. However it created a mish mash of guests that probably didn't need to mingle. I.E. inebriated club goes and families with children.

2) Over the declining years it was clear TDO had left PI to flounder with out much upkeep. The clubs were begining to show more and more signs of run down and nothing was being done to refurbish them.

3) There was a large demand for more family oriented offerings at DTD and the prime realestate was the decling PI. The clubs were closed and new plans were emplemented that including many third party businesses.

 

[wm49rs]

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim that Disney lies and that PI closed because of poor management.....

That's always wise, taking your fight to the moderators....

And no one said TDO was lying, or that is was poor management which were the sole causes for PI closing down. I think eveyone here is in agreement that it was finances that brought about the demise. But when someone says they have facts of gang activity and drunkeness being causes as well, asking for evidence to support them is a reasonable request.

 

[s8film40]

It doesn't really matter if attendance was down. The fact is it was really good at one point if it dropped it was due to poor management. Replacing the clubs with a bold new vision (whenever it comes) but not replacing the management that drove the business into the ground will still have the same effect. The type of business really doesn't matter it's the ability to run a business that really matters.

If the attendance at MK drops are we to assume that people just don't like that kind of entertainment and the right decision is to close it down.

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

Okay lets break down what you said...

Look at restaurants...many times the bar area makes money but the food area does not...so instead of closing down just the dining area they close the whole restaurant down...that is a better analogy than a mall since in a mall they are all separately run and independent shops where as in PI they are all owned and operated by the same people.

So by the same logic, shouldn't they just have shut down all of Downtown Disney?

So you named three people who have no real claim to their OPINIONS. I want real sources....

No, I quoted three posters who have some access to the inner workings of the Disney organization who have shared their knowledge of this situation with us.

Civil? I made a claim supported by facts and yet you attacked using no facts. I am right, i really dont care if you dont believe me because you guys remind me of typical Internet folk who believe anything that a website tells you....

I don't think I've really attacked, have I? I just am supporting what I think is the most likely scenario. Is it not possible that leadership can become incompetent and short-sighted? I certainly can't believe that they intended to leave Pleasure Island mostly empty for years. I think they should have at least known that was a possibility, and if so, they should have taken a different approach to redeveloping the Island. It all just falls within the pattern of decision-making from over the past fifteen years or so.

And you have not supported your claim with facts, as you have not provided us with any proper data.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Also, why would they close the supposedly only two profitable ventures that also happen to be venues that do not typically encourage people to get overly drunk and attract a gang element?

Great point. If gang bangers were hanging out at PI, I can guarantee they weren't spending their time watching improv at AC and CW.

Disney could have closed down all the booty-shaking joints and preserved a well-themed entertainment area that also offered patrons the chance to get blotto, but instead tossed out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[PixarfortheWin]

Great point. If gang bangers were hanging out at PI, I can guarantee they weren't spending their time watching improv at AC and CW.

Disney could have closed down all the booty-shaking joints and preserved a well-themed entertainment area that also offered patrons the chance to get blotto, but instead tossed out the baby with the bathwater.

Then they would have backlash for closing the clubs that are more youth oriented...again it is like a restaurant..PI as a whole WAS a single entity that had failing parts so they tried anew...too bad it was during a recession or you would see more shops opened up....blaming management is wrong because it was the GUEST who caused the problem...

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Empty vessels and all that...............

 

[Wilt Dasney]

PI as a whole WAS a single entity that had failing parts so they tried anew

If a person has a cavity, you don't shoot him in the head. You pull the tooth. (THIS IS A HORRIBLE ANALOGY, BUT I'M NOT CHANGING IT.)

You're right that Disney decided to treat PI as one piece. That doesn't mean that was the only decision available to them.

 

[PixarfortheWin]

If a person has a cavity, you don't shoot him in the head. You pull the tooth.

You're right that Disney decided to treat PI as one piece. That doesn't mean that was the only decision available to them.

It had one budget, it had one group of managers...it in effect was one entity

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

If a person has a cavity, you don't shoot him in the head. You pull the tooth.

Worst... dentist... EVER. :lol:

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Worst... dentist... EVER. :lol:

Yeeeah, it occurred to me after I posted it that a filling might be more appropriate in that case. :lookaroun

 

[Wilt Dasney]

It had one budget, it had one group of managers...it in effect was one entity

I guess I don't see why this is even worth arguing. Even if you're right, where was it written in stone that nothing about the arrangement could ever change?

Are you seriously arguing that it would have been impossible for Disney to preserve AC and CW by just...ya know, changing the budgeting and personnel practices for the area? Your argument seems to hinge on an assumption that once a company makes up a set of operating procedures, it's powerless to change them. I guess I'm having trouble seeing why that should even be treated as a serious position. :shrug:

 

[wm49rs]

I guess I don't see why this is even worth arguing. Even if you're right, where was it written in stone that nothing about the arrangement could ever change?

Are you seriously arguing that it would have been impossible for Disney to preserve AC and CW by just...ya know, changing the budgeting and personnel practices for the area? Your argument seems to hinge on an assumption that once a company makes up a set of operating procedures, it's powerless to change them. I guess I'm having trouble seeing why that should even be treated as a serious position. :shrug:

Especially when some of that budget would have been needed for increased security. You know, to handle all of the additional gang members infesting PI......

 

[lazyboy97o]

It had one budget, it had one group of managers...it in effect was one entity

One must ask, why was this structure maintained when reality was so different? When even the parks and their various lands, attractions, shops and restaurants were all moved away from this greater whole unit model, why was Pleasure Island maintaining this structure?

 

[lazyboy97o]

I guess I don't see why this is even worth arguing. Even if you're right, where was it written in stone that nothing about the arrangement could ever change?

Are you seriously arguing that it would have been impossible for Disney to preserve AC and CW by just...ya know, changing the budgeting and personnel practices for the area? Your argument seems to hinge on an assumption that once a company makes up a set of operating procedures, it's powerless to change them. I guess I'm having trouble seeing why that should even be treated as a serious position. :shrug:

I think one of the biggest issues would have been pricing. Entrance could not be purchased on an individual basis, but the demand at the higher price point was there. Disney would need to find a way to maintain the perceived value of the purchase.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I hate to nit pick but wouldnt failing to properly manage a changing business dynamic indicate failures in management at every level?

Obviously not cause its a fact its the guests fault.

 

[Horizonsfan]

I hate to nit pick but wouldnt failing to properly manage a changing business dynamic indicate failures in management at every level?

Obviously not cause its a fact its the guests fault.

Wow that's a good point, you'd think with all the TDO despisal around here someone would of pointed that out before now.

I tip my hat to you sir.

 

[PixarfortheWin]

I guess I don't see why this is even worth arguing. Even if you're right, where was it written in stone that nothing about the arrangement could ever change?

Are you seriously arguing that it would have been impossible for Disney to preserve AC and CW by just...ya know, changing the budgeting and personnel practices for the area? Your argument seems to hinge on an assumption that once a company makes up a set of operating procedures, it's powerless to change them. I guess I'm having trouble seeing why that should even be treated as a serious position. :shrug:

The backlash they would of gotten for keeping AC and CW would of been big...i tend to wish they would of kept those two but it would seem strange to keep two clubs and still talk about "listening to the opinions of the guests" and close the others.