Changes at DTD

[lazyboy97o]

West Side was destined to underperform. By allowing DTD to become divided it created a fundamentally flawed business model. It just didn't serrve Disney's WDW core audience/customer base in a way that was as successful as it should have. Hopefully it will soon live up to its potential, which is substantial. PI had the effect of dragging down other areas or limiting their potential.

If Pleasure Island was the ball and chain, then why is that not where bus service was discontinued? Discontinuing bus service to the West Side meant that people going to Cirque du Soleil, DisneyQuest, a show at the House of Blues, etc. could not just take the bus directly to the end of the West Side and skip the rest. Disney was trying to force these people to walk through the West Side and see what was there. If Pleasure Island was the weak point, Disney would have discontinued that bus service, hoping to get people to pass through, or get them to use the buses to avoid the area so that it could quickly and easily be redeveloped. Even now, with nothing there, Disney continues to maintain bus service to Pleasure Island, while the West Side bus depot sits there doing nothing.

 

[jt04]

So, now we've gone from a "bold new vision" for PI to "Hopefully it will soon live up to its potential." Quite the verbal backflip there.....

Not sure I get your point since you didn't bother to explain it (typical of your postings). As I have said many times, "BNV" is Disney's term. Whether they live up to it or not is up to them. Sorry if you don't read subtlety well. Not my problem.

 

[jt04]

If Pleasure Island was the ball and chain, then why is that not where bus service was discontinued? Discontinuing bus service to the West Side meant that people going to Cirque du Soleil, DisneyQuest, a show at the House of Blues, etc. could not just take the bus directly to the end of the West Side and skip the rest. Disney was trying to force these people to walk through the West Side and see what was there. If Pleasure Island was the weak point, Disney would have discontinued that bus service, hoping to get people to pass through, or get them to use the buses to avoid the area so that it could quickly and easily be redeveloped. Even now, with nothing there, Disney continues to maintain bus service to Pleasure Island, while the West Side bus depot sits there doing nothing.

I did not say PI was the weak point. The entire concept as a whole was flawed. Obviously.

A PI type concept as a stand alone should work quite well. And I think you will see it some day.

 

[wm49rs]

Not sure I get your point since you didn't bother to explain it (typical of your postings). As I have said many times, "BNV" is Disney's term. Whether they live up to it or not is up to them. Sorry if you don't read subtlety well. Not my problem.

Actually, Bold New Vision was the expression for all of DtD, not just Pleasure Island. But, since you've seem to run with the concept for one particular area, and defended it poorly, asking for an explanation is only called for. Especially with your track record of making statements which often don't come to fruition (How's the bid process for the light rail coming along in Florida?).

 

[Lucky]

OT, but anyway...

The ancient Greeks thought the world as round and Eratosthenes calculated the Earth's circumference in 240 BCE.

Later, St. Augustine promoted the sphere idea and then in the Middle Ages, the idea was fairly widespread.

Basically, it is a common misconception that the people's of antiquity all thought that the Earth was flat. Yes, some did, but it was not the prevailing opinion in any time that I can find.

What made Columbus different in his time was not that he thought the Earth was round, but that he underestimated the true size of the sphere. If he had agreed with the (roughly accurate) consensus opinion at the time on the Earth's size, he never would have been stupid and reckless enough to try sailing west to reach "India." Sometimes it pays to be ignorant.

 

[kapeman]

What bold new vision?



My mistake then, thanks! :wave:

No big deal. Just trying to dis spell the occasional common misconception.

 

[lazyboy97o]

As I have said many times, "BNV" is Disney's term. Whether they live up to it or not is up to them. Sorry if you don't read subtlety well. Not my problem.

Actually, you had to be reminded that this was Disney's term, as you thought you had coined it.

I did not say PI was the weak point. The entire concept as a whole was flawed. Obviously.

A PI type concept as a stand alone should work quite well. And I think you will see it some day.

No, a stand alone facility will not work. That is why Pleasure Island was built where it was built. That whole idea of nightlife works together with clubs, music, drinks, shopping and dinning. It is why Disney wanted to expand its adult oriented offerings and built the West Side.

 

[jt04]

Actually, you had to be reminded that this was Disney's term, as you thought you had coined it.

Please


No, a stand alone facility will not work. That is why Pleasure Island was built where it was built. That whole idea of nightlife works together with clubs, music, drinks, shopping and dinning. It is why Disney wanted to expand its adult oriented offerings and built the West Side.

Yes, it would work.

 

[zulemara]

Actually, you had to be reminded that this was Disney's term, as you thought you had coined it.


No, a stand alone facility will not work. That is why Pleasure Island was built where it was built. That whole idea of nightlife works together with clubs, music, drinks, shopping and dinning. It is why Disney wanted to expand its adult oriented offerings and built the West Side.

While I agree with your viewpoint, the West Side was created as a knee jerk reaction to Citywalk. Disney freaked out and built it with poor design and then turned around and shut down PI because WS wasn't/isn't getting the business the clients want.

 

[71jason]

No, a stand alone facility will not work. That is why Pleasure Island was built where it was built. That whole idea of nightlife works together with clubs, music, drinks, shopping and dinning. It is why Disney wanted to expand its adult oriented offerings and built the West Side.

I can't believe it myself, but I kind of agree with JT on this. I don't think the original PI borrowed that much infrastructure from the MP--and it was definitely sold as its own animal, with separate shops/restaurants catering to a different market than the MP. (Not that MP had much of an identity back then.) The gates and the marketing kept it from being just an extension of MP.

Also, a stand-alone area does a better psychological job of keeping kids out. Which I think everyone can agree works better for nightlife.

What I don't believe is that Disney is willing to commit the enormous sums of money necessary to build a new nightlife area.

 

[Figment1986]

While I agree with your viewpoint, the West Side was created as a knee jerk reaction to Citywalk. Disney freaked out and built it with poor design and then turned around and shut down PI because WS wasn't/isn't getting the business the clients want.

West side opening date: 1997

Citywalk Orlando opening date: 1999
Citywalk Hollywood opening date: 1993

Maybe it was a knee jerk reaction seeing universal announced the whole concept years in advanced and they could see hollywoods set up, or it was just they had an opportunity to open a Disneyquest, make a deal with virgin, open a cirque show of their own, and have a deal with house of blues... all in the same spot :shrug:

 

[zulemara]

West side opening date: 1997

Citywalk Orlando opening date: 1999
Citywalk Hollywood opening date: 1993

Maybe it was a knee jerk reaction seeing universal announced the whole concept years in advanced and they could see hollywoods set up, or it was just they had an opportunity to open a Disneyquest, make a deal with virgin, open a cirque show of their own, and have a deal with house of blues... all in the same spot :shrug:

exactly, it's the same reason DHS was rushed into opening and is a mess from a design standpoint. Disney was afraid the citywalk would be like hollywood would be setup and created the West Side and wanted to beat Universal to the punch. Unfortunately, Universal got the last laugh. The combination of shops, restaurants, and night life works very well there and their business is booming(specifically citywalk not necessarily the parks prior to WWOHP)

 

[lazyboy97o]

I can't believe it myself, but I kind of agree with JT on this. I don't think the original PI borrowed that much infrastructure from the MP--and it was definitely sold as its own animal, with separate shops/restaurants catering to a different market than the MP. (Not that MP had much of an identity back then.) The gates and the marketing kept it from being just an extension of MP.

Also, a stand-alone area does a better psychological job of keeping kids out. Which I think everyone can agree works better for nightlife.

What I don't believe is that Disney is willing to commit the enormous sums of money necessary to build a new nightlife area.

Distinct and isolated are two different concepts. Pleasure Island was distinct, but not separated. The Marketolace provided early hour shopping and dining options. The common parking lot and connecting walkways made it easy to start your night at the Marketplace and end at Pleasure Island. The clubs could be intermixed with the shops, to prevent one area from being totally unoccupied during the day, but the types of clubs would have to be different. Pleasure Island was designed as a whole, with people expected to hop between clubs. Clubs mixed about would have to be more of their own destination.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Actually, you had to be reminded that this was Disney's term, as you thought you had coined it.

Please

The record speaks for itself.

OK, I see the problem. Dude (and this is very important) "Bold new plan" are my words NOT Disney's. And I'm certainly not a spokesman for Disney.

Disney has never said anything about what they are planning. I don't force my opinion on anyone. I'm just expressing myself. :lol:

:wave:

 

[xdan0920]

Pleasure Island was once a great place. The Westside was never a good idea. I am not sure that the West Side was the downfall of PI. I think the downfall of PI was a lack of freshness. In the nightlife business people need to see something new, something exciting. Disney rested on its laurels and paid the price.

CityWalk is a perfectly conceived entertainment district. That has so far been able to stand the test of time.

 

[71jason]

Distinct and isolated are two different concepts. Pleasure Island was distinct, but not separated. The Marketolace provided early hour shopping and dining options. The common parking lot and connecting walkways made it easy to start your night at the Marketplace and end at Pleasure Island. The clubs could be intermixed with the shops, to prevent one area from being totally unoccupied during the day, but the types of clubs would have to be different. Pleasure Island was designed as a whole, with people expected to hop between clubs. Clubs mixed about would have to be more of their own destination.

I don't entirely disagree, but I'm just saying, as it originally existed, PI really was not as connected as it ended up being. I still think a separate, even isolated, all-nighttime area is a viable option. The slight increase in infrastructure cost would be justified by avoiding the clash of "family-friendly" and "nightlife" activities that ended up being one of PI's major downfalls.

BTW, I think one lesson we can draw from West Side's intial failure (or the fact that Portabello and Fireworks Factory never quite made their mark) is that not many people are looking to "transition" from daytime fun or even dinner to nighttime fun. It's a neat theory, but it just doesn't seem to work.

Pleasure Island was once a great place. The Westside was never a good idea. I am not sure that the West Side was the downfall of PI. I think the downfall of PI was a lack of freshness. In the nightlife business people need to see something new, something exciting. Disney rested on its laurels and paid the price.

CityWalk is a perfectly conceived entertainment district. That has so far been able to stand the test of time.

Freshness was definitely an issue for Motion; but keep in mind many visitors only came once every couple years. And places like 8-Traxx and the AdvClub were kind of immune to this truism.

The West Side led to the main downfall of PI--tearing down the turnstiles. WS businesses wanted more traffic. By turning Hill Street into a stroller thruway, it ruined the "outdoor street party" atmosphere that made PI so special, more so than even the individual clubs. It also gave the bean counters the cover they needed to remove the live bands/dancers, fireworks, and shotgirls--further destroying the atmoshphere.

Re: CityWalk. Have you ever been Sunday thru Wednesday. The thing about PI is it could still draw at least a small crowd on weeknights; CW has yet to do this that I've seen.

 

[jt04]

The record speaks for itself.

Wow! I guess they do read these boards.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't entirely disagree, but I'm just saying, as it originally existed, PI really was not as connected as it ended up being. I still think a separate, even isolated, all-nighttime area is a viable option. The slight increase in infrastructure cost would be justified by avoiding the clash of "family-friendly" and "nightlife" activities that ended up being one of PI's major downfalls.

BTW, I think one lesson we can draw from West Side's intial failure (or the fact that Portabello and Fireworks Factory never quite made their mark) is that not many people are looking to "transition" from daytime fun or even dinner to nighttime fun. It's a neat theory, but it just doesn't seem to work.

At their recent best, it seems that the clubs were just barely profitable. Adding in the costs of security, parking, transportation, etc. and the venture as a whole would be in the red.

West Side is comprised of many venues that were themselves the nighttime draw. It is a bit much, I think, to expect a person to go see La Nouba, a concert or a movie and head off to the clubs. The area is too heavily dominated by items that are a singular draw that failed to feed the shops along the main drag.

 

[jt04]

The record speaks for itself.

Oh wait....

http://orlando.about.com/od/entertainment1/a/pleasureisland_5.htm

:ROFLOL:

 

[lazyboy97o]

Oh wait....

http://orlando.about.com/od/entertainment1/a/pleasureisland_5.htm

:ROFLOL:

I am not so sure what you are laughing at? That Press Release is eactly what you forgot about.

I'm pretty sure it's my phrase. I'd find it fascinating to find out otherwise however!