Al Lutz: Tom Staggs stepping back and reconsidering many aspects of FLE

DisneyParksFan1

Active Member
We keep failing to mention Legoland in this debate. But Legoland choose a builder today. Same folks that built TWWoHP. So, I think any thought TDO had of scaling back the FLE is now canceled. Not that I think TDO has any say whatsover in the FLE. If anything the FLE got a bigger budget. I thought the pace of construction was becomming a bit frenzied. I think Legoland is what has Disney execs "panicked".

BTW, I think Legoland always posed a bigger threat to WDW than Potter since it was announced. Yeah, I said it!

Hope that's right.

Anyway, so apparently all that will be worked will be the east side of the FLE. Tom Staggs got his way on all of his concerns and are being addressed according to Lee. I sure can't wait for them to finally tell us what in the world it is that they are doing!
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Hope that's right.

Anyway, so apparently all that will be worked will be the east side of the FLE. Tom Staggs got his way on all of his concerns and are being addressed according to Lee. I sure can't wait for them to finally tell us what in the world it is that they are doing!

The announcement by legoland has changed my opinion a bit and now I think all this turmoil in the rumor mill may have been generated by Disney responding to Legoland rumors. So, I think Disney is pushing to get Beast and Mermaid open before Legoland opens. That is consistant with the rumors. FLE "east" also went back to the drawing board because of the Legoland rumors (I'm betting Legoland may be getting a bigger budget than previously thought) and Disney wants to have something in direct response to Legoland at the MK. That is why Steve said we would be happy. I'm pretty sure the FLE budget was increased and new attractions added in response. Time will tell.
 

DisneyParksFan1

Active Member
The announcement by legoland has changed my opinion a bit and now I think all this turmoil in the rumor mill may have been generated by Disney responding to Legoland rumors. So, I think Disney is pushing to get Beast and Mermaid open before Legoland opens. That is consistant with the rumors. FLE "east" also went back to the drawing board because of the Legoland rumors (I'm betting Legoland may be getting a bigger budget than previously thought) and Disney wants to have something in direct response to Legoland at the MK. That is why Steve said we would be happy. I'm pretty sure the FLE budget was increased and new attractions added in response. Time will tell.

I sure hope your right!

And idk if this helps the whole M&G's controversy but here's a new update from Orlando Theme Park News.

http://orlandoparksnews.blogspot.co...andoThemeParksNews+(Orlando+Theme+Parks+News)

This pic made me wonder, what are they digging for? For the utilidor or...?
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member

DisneyParksFan1

Active Member
I am sure some of the digging will be for the utilidors... Maybe they will also be digging to get some foundation finally started daggit!!! lol..

Yes, finally. So the M&G's are happening. The only changes will be to the east side. PH got the axe, so I'm thinking it will be replaced by something new. I wonder what though.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
The announcement by legoland has changed my opinion a bit and now I think all this turmoil in the rumor mill may have been generated by Disney responding to Legoland rumors. So, I think Disney is pushing to get Beast and Mermaid open before Legoland opens. That is consistant with the rumors. FLE "east" also went back to the drawing board because of the Legoland rumors (I'm betting Legoland may be getting a bigger budget than previously thought) and Disney wants to have something in direct response to Legoland at the MK. That is why Steve said we would be happy. I'm pretty sure the FLE budget was increased and new attractions added in response. Time will tell.

jt, you may be on to something about Legoland... Here comes yet another theme park that has the potential to pull guests away from Disney World for a day or two.. add WWOHP and SeaWorld, and there are now 3 to 4 days that can be taken away from WDW vacations... Also, Legoland will cater to kids and families, and that is the market Disney aims for as well.. universal, not so much.. they tend to want the teens and adult thrill seekers, but will gladly take families...

And ya know, Steve tells us we will be happy, yet Lee says he only knows BatB, LM, and the M&Gs are happening, but doesn't know about the outcome of the east part of the expansion... How can we be happy if no one has a clue, or even wants to give us a little clue about any replacement that may or may not have been greenlit???

yes, this whole FLE thing has being unnecessarily frustrating...
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
Yes, finally. So the M&G's are happening. The only changes will be to the east side. PH got the axe, so I'm thinking it will be replaced by something new. I wonder what though.

Well, let's see... Raven said we'll be happy... Steve says we'll be happy.. Lee says he knows nothing of what will become of the east part of the expansion, the M&Gs are happening, and he knows of no other additions to the western part of the expansion... juan said he'll know on Sunday... I think someone else said they will know this week what the final plans are...

I'm just totally fried over this entire slop we call FLE...
 

DisneyParksFan1

Active Member
jt, you may be on to something about Legoland... Here comes yet another theme park that has the potential to pull guests away from Disney World for a day or two.. add WWOHP and SeaWorld, and there are now 3 to 4 days that can be taken away from WDW vacations... Also, Legoland will cater to kids and families, and that is the market Disney aims for as well.. universal, not so much.. they tend to want the teens and adult thrill seekers, but will gladly take families...

And ya know, Steve tells us we will be happy, yet Lee says he only knows BatB, LM, and the M&Gs are happening, but doesn't know about the outcome of the east part of the expansion... How can we be happy if no one has a clue, or even wants to give us a little clue about any replacement that may or may not have been greenlit???

yes, this whole FLE thing has being unnecessarily frustrating...

It's definitely frustrating...:fork:

But okay, I'm guessing that everything on the west is greenlit, ground has been broken and apparently what may be the utilidor is already being dug up. So I think that's definite, according to Lee.

Now, Steve went on to say that we will be satisfied with the additions. Now, I'm thinking what he meant was the east side. And according to Lee, Tom Staggs got his way on the concerns he had and they will be addressed on the east side of FLE. So basically, we will be happy with what will go on in Phase 2, the east.

So now, I'll give it before the end of the year for the announcement to be on DisneyParks' twitter.:cool:
 

DisneyParksFan1

Active Member
Well, let's see... Raven said we'll be happy... Steve says we'll be happy.. Lee says he knows nothing of what will become of the east part of the expansion, the M&Gs are happening, and he knows of no other additions to the western part of the expansion... juan said he'll know on Sunday... I think someone else said they will know this week what the final plans are...

I'm just totally fried over this entire slop we call FLE...

Isn't tomorrow Sunday? And I thought he said next week.:confused:
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
It's definitely frustrating...:fork:

But okay, I'm guessing that everything on the west is greenlit, ground has been broken and apparently what may be the utilidor is already being dug up. So I think that's definite, according to Lee.

Now, Steve went on to say that we will be satisfied with the additions. Now, I'm thinking what he meant was the east side. And according to Lee, Tom Staggs got his way on the concerns he had and they will be addressed on the east side of FLE. So basically, we will be happy with what will go on in Phase 2, the east.

So now, I'll give it before the end of the year for the announcement to be on DisneyParks' twitter.:cool:

Isn't tomorrow Sunday? And I thought he said next week.:confused:

See, with Steve saying we'llbe happy, to me, it means he knows or was told of the ideas that were floated around and were finally greenlit, if anything was greenlit yet... And Lee saying Staggs got is way doesn't mean we'll be happy.. it just means Pixie Hollow is dead... which I guess makes most of us happy.. Maybe that is what Steve meant LOL...

Steve, clues man... give us some clues...

Did juan say next Sunday?? Cause yea, tomorrow, or today rather, is Sunday... Maybe it was next week... I don't know anymore...
 

DisneyParksFan1

Active Member
See, with Steve saying we'llbe happy, to me, it means he knows or was told of the ideas that were floated around and were finally greenlit, if anything was greenlit yet... And Lee saying Staggs got is way doesn't mean we'll be happy.. it just means Pixie Hollow is dead...

Steve, clues man... give us some clues...

Did juan say next Sunday?? Cause yea, tomorrow, or today rather, is Sunday... Maybe it was next week... I don't know anymore...

I'm not sure. I'll have to PM juan, and yeah I wouldn't mind some clues myself. Lol.
 

CaptainWinter

Active Member
BTW, I think Legoland always posed a bigger threat to WDW than Potter since it was announced. Yeah, I said it!

Really? Legoland? From what I've heard, both directly (from friends) and in the press, Legoland CA is pretty lame. One friend characterized it as Wait-o-land. They'll have to really up their game to compete with the Mouse.

And also...a lot of people like Legos, sure, but Harry Potter is a megaphenomenon of epic proportions. I don't know anyone who's after Legoland, but yet I know lots of people -- adults and kids -- who are just *crazy* to get to WWoHP someday.
 

DisneyParksFan1

Active Member
Really? Legoland? From what I've heard, both directly (from friends) and in the press, Legoland CA is pretty lame. One friend characterized it as Wait-o-land. They'll have to really up their game to compete with the Mouse.

And also...a lot of people like Legos, sure, but Harry Potter is a megaphenomenon of epic proportions. I don't know anyone who's after Legoland, but yet I know lots of people -- adults and kids -- who are just *crazy* to get to WWoHP someday.

Yeah, in the end the mouse wins, but hey they have to step up their game at WDW tho, it's desperately needed.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
Really? Legoland? From what I've heard, both directly (from friends) and in the press, Legoland CA is pretty lame. One friend characterized it as Wait-o-land. They'll have to really up their game to compete with the Mouse.

And also...a lot of people like Legos, sure, but Harry Potter is a megaphenomenon of epic proportions. I don't know anyone who's after Legoland, but yet I know lots of people -- adults and kids -- who are just *crazy* to get to WWoHP someday.

Yeah, in the end the mouse wins, but hey they have to step up their game at WDW tho, it's desperately needed.

Well, as jt pointed out, the company that worked on WWOHP is working on LegoLand... Lego also cannot put a so-so park in Orlando and expect to survive.. They know the score.. They know what they have to do.. I doubt an exaclt clone of the one in CA will be put in Orlando.. I do believe they will step it up a few notches..

Regardless, this is a park that has the potential to pull families off of WDW property for a day... Add in IOA/USO/WWOHP and SeaWorld, and there is 3 potentially 4 days taken away... Most families visit WDW for 7 days... 4 days off property is too much money out of Disney's pockets... That leave 2 or 3 days for Disney parks... Disney does not want nor like this... I believe LegoLand does throw a wrench into the talks and has the potential to damage the bottom line...
 

DisneyParksFan1

Active Member
Well, as jt pointed out, the company that worked on WWOHP is working on LegoLand... Lego also cannot put a so-so park in Orlando and expect to survive.. They know the score.. They know what they have to do.. I doubt an exaclt clone of the one in CA will be put in Orlando.. I do believe they will step it up a few notches..

Regardless, this is a park that has the potential to pull families off of WDW property for a day... Add in IOA/USO/WWOHP and SeaWorld, and there is 3 potentially 4 days taken away... Most families visit WDW for 7 days... 4 days off property is too much money out of Disney's pockets... That leave 2 or 3 days for Disney parks... Disney does not want nor like this... I believe LegoLand does throw a wrench into the talks and has the potential to damage the bottom line...

Yeah it should be enough to scare WDW into doing something IMO.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I think Legoland is what has Disney execs "panicked".

BTW, I think Legoland always posed a bigger threat to WDW than Potter since it was announced. Yeah, I said it!

Spoken like someone who has never been to a Legoland park before. :D

I've been to Legoland California about four times; visiting every three or four years since the park opened 60 minutes south of Disneyland in 1999. It wasn't a threat to anyone then, and after a decade of heavy investment and expansion including hundreds of time-share condos and a luxury hotel attached to the park, it's still not a threat to any other theme park in entertainment-heavy Southern California.

Legoland California Resort Map
legoland-california-map.png


Legoland California is only open 5 days a week most of the year. It's only open from 10AM to 5PM the days it is open. It has hokey carny rides lightly themed with legos. It has employees who range from bored and disinterested teens who couldn't get a job at the Carlsbad Mall to downright surly and slobby adults who couldn't get a job anywhere but Legoland. The park has poor maintenance standards, and no real interest in showmanship. The entire facilities have taken a beating in the mild, salty sea air of Carlsbad, and won't stand up much better in the far more severe climate of central Florida. Again, maintenance is not its strong point, and it shows.

Legoland California has a neat hook with the brand recognition of Legos, and their new Sea Life Park aquarium they just opened next door is the biggest hit that property has had in its entire decade of additions and expansion. Their miniland area is always fun to stroll through however. It also has a built-in audience of upper-middle class and well-educated folks living in affluent North San Diego County along the ocean, a far more affluent demographic than central Florida. But as a standalone theme park held up to Disneyland standards, even WDW standards, it still pales cheaply in comparison.

The opening day version of Legoland Florida in 2011 will be even paler than the California version was in '99. And the built-out version of Legoland Florida in 2021 will not fare a whole lot better. Legoland California is a short stroll from the picturesque beaches of Carlsbad in North San Diego County, and that at least keeps a small stream of tourists passing through the gates, once they have sat on the beach for a couple of days.

Lovely Carlsband, California - Home of Legoland
1-carlsbad-beach1.jpg


I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Legoland Florida go the same way as Cypress Gardens before it, and close around 2016 after five years of trying to turn a profit in the shadow of WDW and USF, far off the beaten path. And yes, that includes the option of taking a 30 minute long free shuttle ride from the Lakeland high speed rail station. :rolleyes:

In short, in my opinion Legoland Florida will siphon off more attendance from Legoland California 2,500 miles away than it will from Walt Disney World.

.
 

Mouse Detective

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Legoland Florida go the same way as Cypress Gardens before it, and close around 2016 after five years of trying to turn a profit in the shadow of WDW and USF, far off the beaten path. In short, in my opinion Legoland Florida will siphon off more attendance from Legoland California 2,500 miles away than it will from Walt Disney World..

Well I think you're wrong on this one. Walt Disney World and Orlando draw their tourists primarily from the Northeast, South and Midwest. Most of the people from those areas (not all, but most) never go to California. They come to Florida. They come here for Spring Break, they come here for Christmas and they come here for their summer vacations. These are the people with the children in tow. Some fly, many drive. Legoland Florida does need to be much better than it's California counterpart. It's going to be. And for those Orlando visitors with the children, it's going to take a day away from Mickey. I don't think Jt is correct when he says its a bigger threat than Harry Potter, but it's another threat. And Merlin is playing serious hard ball.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Really? Legoland? From what I've heard, both directly (from friends) and in the press, Legoland CA is pretty lame. One friend characterized it as Wait-o-land. They'll have to really up their game to compete with the Mouse.

And also...a lot of people like Legos, sure, but Harry Potter is a megaphenomenon of epic proportions. I don't know anyone who's after Legoland, but yet I know lots of people -- adults and kids -- who are just *crazy* to get to WWoHP someday.

No. First of all, there are other "audiences" in play here not just what you would find appealing. And this entire HP is way overblown. What is cool to one generation rarely maintains that level with the next. Plus TWWoHP and Legoland will have different core audiences. Is empathy and analytical thinking utterly dead? :dazzle:

Spoken like someone who has never been to a Legoland park before. :D

I've been to Legoland California about four times; visiting every three or four years since the park opened 60 minutes south of Disneyland in 1999. It wasn't a threat to anyone then, and after a decade of heavy investment and expansion including hundreds of time-share condos and a luxury hotel attached to the park, it's still not a threat to any other theme park in entertainment-heavy Southern California.

Legoland California Resort Map
legoland-california-map.png


Legoland California is only open 5 days a week most of the year. It's only open from 10AM to 5PM the days it is open. It has hokey carny rides lightly themed with legos. It has employees who range from bored and disinterested teens who couldn't get a job at the Carlsbad Mall to downright surly and slobby adults who couldn't get a job anywhere but Legoland. The park has poor maintenance standards, and no real interest in showmanship. The entire facilities have taken a beating in the mild, salty sea air of Carlsbad, and won't stand up much better in the far more severe climate of central Florida. Again, maintenance is not its strong point, and it shows.

Legoland California has a neat hook with the brand recognition of Legos, and their new Sea Life Park aquarium they just opened next door is the biggest hit that property has had in its entire decade of additions and expansion. Their miniland area is always fun to stroll through however. It also has a built-in audience of upper-middle class and well-educated folks living in affluent North San Diego County along the ocean, a far more affluent demographic than central Florida. But as a standalone theme park held up to Disneyland standards, even WDW standards, it still pales cheaply in comparison.

The opening day version of Legoland Florida in 2011 will be even paler than the California version was in '99. And the built-out version of Legoland Florida in 2021 will not fare a whole lot better. Legoland California is a short stroll from the picturesque beaches of Carlsbad in North San Diego County, and that at least keeps a small stream of tourists passing through the gates, once they have sat on the beach for a couple of days.

Lovely Carlsband, California - Home of Legoland
1-carlsbad-beach1.jpg


I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Legoland Florida go the same way as Cypress Gardens before it, and close around 2016 after five years of trying to turn a profit in the shadow of WDW and USF, far off the beaten path. And yes, that includes the option of taking a 30 minute long free shuttle ride from the Lakeland high speed rail station. :rolleyes:

In short, in my opinion Legoland Florida will siphon off more attendance from Legoland California 2,500 miles away than it will from Walt Disney World.

.

It IS a threat to Disney's bottom line. Make no mistake. Disney has an issue with young families at the MK. Even Lasseter admitted as much. Legoland will be in a position to exploit that. Also, central Floridians have very different values than folks from California. Legoland will be a hit. :king:

Well I think you're wrong on this one. Walt Disney World and Orlando draw their tourists primarily from the Northeast, South and Midwest. Most of the people from those areas (not all, but most) never go to California. They come to Florida. They come here for Spring Break, they come here for Christmas and they come here for their summer vacations. These are the people with the children in tow. Some fly, many drive. Legoland Florida does need to be much better than it's California counterpart. It's going to be. And for those Orlando visitors with the children, it's going to take a day away from Mickey. I don't think Jt is correct when he says its a bigger threat than Harry Potter, but it's another threat. And Merlin is playing serious hard ball.

HP is a "land" geared to ages over 10. Legoland is an entire theme park destination primarily aiming for the audience the MK does a rather poor job of serving as Lasseter acknowledges.

Oh, for all you doubters, even Eddie Sotto acknowledged what I am saying by retelling a joke he heard whose punchline is, "Disneyland is great but when will they build one for kids". The problem is even more serious at the MK. But the FLE and NextGen should fix that. But there will still be some here who think they know more that John Lasseter, Eddie Sotto and Imagineering. Laughable. :lol:
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
No. First of all, there are other "audiences" in play here not just what you would find appealing. And this entire HP is way overblown. What is cool to one generation rarely maintains that level with the next. Plus TWWoHP and Legoland will have different core audiences. Is empathy and analytical thinking utterly dead? :dazzle:
You still have not experienced the Wizarding World of Harry Potter or its signature attraction, have you? Not to mention that much of what has enabled Disney to survive since 1923 was its ability to sell older material to the next generation. Theme parks must sell the old even more so than movie studios, as it is not cheap to keep tearing down everything and rebuilding.

It IS a threat to Disney's bottom line. Make no mistake. Disney has an issue with young families at the MK. Even Lasseter admitted as much. Legoland will be in a position to exploit that. Also, central Floridians have very different values than folks from California. Legoland will be a hit. :king:
Legoland has yet to be a big hit anywhere in the world. If Merlin Entertainment thought that Florida was going to be such a goldmine, then they would have built a park sooner. They are not even building their own park, they bought one that closed.

Then there are Disney's vacation packages, designed to keep families on Disney's property. Families will have to rent a car and drive south for at least 45 minutes. You are the one telling us about how bad I-4 is between Orlando and Tampa, so why would families subject themselves to that?

Oh, for all you doubters, even Eddie Sotto acknowledged what I am saying by retelling a joke he heard whose punchline is, "Disneyland is great but when will they build one for kids". The problem is even more serious at the MK. But the FLE and NextGen should fix that. But there will still be some here who think they know more that John Lasseter, Eddie Sotto and Imagineering. Laughable. :lol:
That was a line from an issue of National Geographic published in the 1960s.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
You still have not experienced the Wizarding World of Harry Potter or its signature attraction, have you? Not to mention that much of what has enabled Disney to survive since 1923 was its ability to sell older material to the next generation. Theme parks must sell the old even more so than movie studios, as it is not cheap to keep tearing down everything and rebuilding.

I have no doubt I would love it but that is not the point. The only new ride and the roller coasters have height requirements thereby excluding small children. One repurposed family coaster and some interactive stuff are not enough. Have you taken note that even the FLE will have that too and then some. I submit that is not a coincidence.


Legoland has yet to be a big hit anywhere in the world. If Merlin Entertainment thought that Florida was going to be such a goldmine, then they would have built a park sooner. They are not even building their own park, they bought one that closed.

Then there are Disney's vacation packages, designed to keep families on Disney's property. Families will have to rent a car and drive south for at least 45 minutes. You are the one telling us about how bad I-4 is between Orlando and Tampa, so why would families subject themselves to that?

One word: "Flexpass"


That was a line from an issue of National Geographic published in the 1960s.

Obviously Disneyland addressed the problem and now so will WDW :sohappy:
 

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