Al Lutz: Tom Staggs stepping back and reconsidering many aspects of FLE

[hpyhnt 1000]

It's not just the big-budget project-cancellations that upset us. The declining maintenance that we've seen at WDW for the past several years (though it has taken a turn for the better) is inexcusable. There is no possible way you can spin that to make it look like it's not the fault of management. It's pure irresponsibility on TDO's part.

If you were having guests over at your house, would you let them see burnt-out lightbulbs, chipped paint, and rotted wood? Of course not! Likewise for WDW, when you're hosting tens of thousands of guests everyday, it's a shame to let these things be seen.

Quoted for truth.

In addition to the lack of basic maintenance, its the lack of upgrades that take place as well. Its not only about major refurbishments that generate media coverage; its about continually updating and improving every guest area. All Fantasyland dark rides, upgrades to the show scenes of the TTA, show upgrades at Jungle Cruise, the finale tunnel of LwtL, changes to the GMR... the list goes on and on of attractions where we haven't even seen updates and improvements to the guest experience. Thats where TDO fails in its management of WDW.

To continue the house analogy, just about every homeowner is always looking at ways to improve thier home beyond basic upkeep in order to increase its marketable value (granite counters, modern fixtures, new landscaping, etc). It doesn't take a complete home demolition and rebuild to make a house nice; its as simple as changing the appliances or adding new light fixtures. TDO doesn't seem to understand this concept of minor improvment to create a better theme park experience.

 

[epcotWSC]

If it's just a matter of making FLE more manly, then I'm happy. If it's just cutting with no replacement, then shame on them.

I always thought that FLE was too girly. There should be a good mix. Why make an expansion where about half of your population won't find any interest there?

 

[DisneyParksFan1]

Quoted for truth.

In addition to the lack of basic maintenance, its the lack of upgrades that take place as well. Its not only about major refurbishments that generate media coverage; its about continually updating and improving every guest area. All Fantasyland dark rides, upgrades to the show scenes of the TTA, show upgrades at Jungle Cruise, the finale tunnel of LwtL, changes to the GMR... the list goes on and on of attractions where we haven't even seen updates and improvements to the guest experience. Thats where TDO fails in its management of WDW.

To continue the house analogy, just about every homeowner is always looking at ways to improve thier home beyond basic upkeep in order to increase its marketable value (granite counters, modern fixtures, new landscaping, etc). It doesn't take a complete home demolition and rebuild to make a house nice; its as simple as changing the appliances or adding new light fixtures. TDO doesn't seem to understand this concept of minor improvment to create a better theme park experience.

Well, slowly I think they may be starting to finally comprehend this by doing all these minor things like facade refurbs for basically what is all of The Magic Kingdom.

 

[Grizzly Hall 71]

I'm so glad that someone is re-looking at this from a young male's POV. I don't think any young male wants color pictures with Sleeping Beauty in a cottage. FL has enough things for Girls. What about something for the males? A Villian's Mountain maybe?

 

[Enchantâmes]

I'm so glad that someone is re-looking at this from a young male's POV. I don't think any young male wants color pictures with Sleeping Beauty in a cottage. FL has enough things for Girls. What about something for the males? A Villian's Mountain maybe?

Boys already have Adventureland, Frontierland, and Tomorrowland. Quit being selfish. :wave:

 

[Grizzly Hall 71]

Boys already have Adventureland, Frontierland, and Tomorrowland. Quit being selfish. :wave:

But in each of those lands you'll find something that will appeal to both genders. Girls love Stitch, they also love Splash, they also love aladdin. But in Fantasyland, ITS ALL GIRLS. Boys don't enjoy anything in there.

I don't understand this arguement because MK was designed so families can have fun TOGETHER.

 

[Biff215]

I'm so glad that someone is re-looking at this from a young male's POV. I don't think any young male wants color pictures with Sleeping Beauty in a cottage. FL has enough things for Girls. What about something for the males? A Villian's Mountain maybe?

If the princess cottages happen, I think you'll be very surprised by how many "young males" will be coloring pictures with Sleeping Beauty and celebrating Aurora's birthday. I don't argue that it's not learning toward girls, but there are too many people forgetting that a huge number of boys and adults will also be drawn to the FLE.

 

[Grizzly Hall 71]

If the princess cottages happen, I think you'll be very surprised by how many "young males" will be coloring pictures with Sleeping Beauty and celebrating Aurora's birthday. I don't argue that it's not learning toward girls, but there are too many people forgetting that a huge number of boys and adults will also be drawn to the FLE.

I don't think the 6-12 boys crowd would want to.

Please explain what any male would be drawn to in Fantasyland?

 

[Captain Chaos]

But in each of those lands you'll find something that will appeal to both genders. Girls love Stitch, they also love Splash, they also love aladdin. But in Fantasyland, ITS ALL GIRLS. Boys don't enjoy anything in there.

I don't understand this arguement because MK was designed so families can have fun TOGETHER.

Boys don't enjoy Small World? Boys don't enjoy Peter Pan? Boys don't enjoy PhilharMagic? Boys don't ride the Carousel? Boys don't like or enjoy Dumbo? Boys don't ride or enjoy Winnie the Pooh or Snow White???? I've seen boys online to meet the princesses before...

Do girls like pirates? I think pirates is geared toward boys... Girls tend to be more frightened with haunted houses, should we petition to have Haunted Mansion closed? And isn't an adventure on Tom Sawyer Island usually geared more toward boys who prefer adventures more than girls, generally speaking??? How about Hall of Presidents.. No female presidents in the history of this country, so would little girls enjoy sitting down inside a 30 minute show where a bunch of men stand on stage? The little girl has no female to look up in that attraction...

Sure, the princess parts of the expansion tend to lean toward girls, but are you saying boys won't enjoy a meal at be Our Guest Restaurant? Boys won't want to ride The Little Mermaid attraction?? Boys won't sit and listen to a story being told by Belle?? They won't want to meet Gaston or Beast, both very manly characters?? Don't boys draw birthday or Mother's Day cards for their moms, and on the cards, don't they draw balloons and flowers and rainbows and butterflies??? So, a boy can't enjoy drawing or coloring a card for Aurora??? I believe little boys would, in fact, enjoy these meet and greets very much... The 8 year old and older boy crowd may not be too interested, maybe even 7 year olds... But then again, would an 8 year old have enjoyed Pooh's playground?

The only thing they have to do is replace Pixie Hollow... With Pixie Hollow out of the picture, I don't see this leaning too heavily on the girlie side...

We aren't talking about clothes or toys here.. We are talking about theme park attractions geared for little kids to enjoy... I know boys won't want princess action figures or dolls or clothes... But, who is to say they won't enjoy these M&Gs???

BTW, Grizz, if creating a birthday card and coloring with Aurora put a smile on your child's face, would that be a bad thing??? Would you be happy knowing your child was happy, or would you be miserable cause you didn't have a thrill ride to go on, you know.. a ride you couldn't enjoy WITH your child??? And chances are, any villains themed attraction would not be child friendly.. Look at Alien Encounter...

 

[Wilt Dasney]

For once...I would like WDI and TDO to announce something and actually STICK to it!

Sorry...I'm just so over all the bait and switch even if the total project wasn't to everyone's liking. You want to tweak it fine...but don't just start haphazardly cutting it up!

Just so frustrating...:brick:

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think it would be useful for Disney fans in general to remember that nothing is official until you see it built. Disney history is littered with projects that the company announced were absolutely on the way, and never happened. (Anybody enjoyed their last ride on D!ck Tracy's Crimestoppers, or enjoyed a stroll through the Israeli pavilion at World Showcase, or booked a stay at the Asian Resort recently?)

 

[Captain Chaos]

I don't think the 6-12 boys crowd would want to.

Please explain what any male would be drawn to in Fantasyland?

Again, Philharmagic, Dumbo, Small world, Peter Pan, Winnie the Pooh, Snow White's Scary Adventures, the mermaid ride... And if the 6-12 year old boys don't want to, then let them go to Pirates, Tom Sawyer Island, Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion... Not everything has to cater to you or only certain age groups...

You don't even know what is replacing Pixie Hollow yet..

 

[wm49rs]

Again, Philharmagic, Dumbo, Small world, Peter Pan, Winnie the Pooh, Snow White's Scary Adventures, the mermaid ride... And if the 6-12 year old boys don't want to, then let them go to Pirates, Tom Sawyer Island, Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion... Not everything has to cater to you or only certain age groups...

You don't even know what is replacing Pixie Hollow yet..

More importantly, no one knows if PH is even being replaced. Like Wilt said, the only way to know is when things are (or are not) built. Read the article from Lutz again. Long on speculation, short on actual facts.....

 

[Grizzly Hall 71]

Boys don't enjoy Small World? Boys don't enjoy Peter Pan? Boys don't enjoy PhilharMagic? Boys don't ride the Carousel? Boys don't like or enjoy Dumbo? Boys don't ride or enjoy Winnie the Pooh or Snow White???? I've seen boys online to meet the princesses before...

Do girls like pirates? I think pirates is geared toward boys... Girls tend to be more frightened with haunted houses, should we petition to have Haunted Mansion closed? And isn't an adventure on Tom Sawyer Island usually geared more toward boys who prefer adventures more than girls, generally speaking??? How about Hall of Presidents.. No female presidents in the history of this country, so would little girls enjoy sitting down inside a 30 minute show where a bunch of men stand on stage? The little girl has no female to look up in that attraction...

Sure, the princess parts of the expansion tend to lean toward girls, but are you saying boys won't enjoy a meal at be Our Guest Restaurant? Boys won't want to ride The Little Mermaid attraction?? Boys won't sit and listen to a story being told by Belle?? They won't want to meet Gaston or Beast, both very manly characters?? Don't boys draw birthday or Mother's Day cards for their moms, and on the cards, don't they draw balloons and flowers and rainbows and butterflies??? So, a boy can't enjoy drawing or coloring a card for Aurora??? I believe little boys would, in fact, enjoy these meet and greets very much... The 8 year old and older boy crowd may not be too interested, maybe even 7 year olds... But then again, would an 8 year old have enjoyed Pooh's playground?

The only thing they have to do is replace Pixie Hollow... With Pixie Hollow out of the picture, I don't see this leaning too heavily on the girlie side...

We aren't talking about clothes or toys here.. We are talking about theme park attractions geared for little kids to enjoy... I know boys won't want princess action figures or dolls or clothes... But, who is to say they won't enjoy these M&Gs???

BTW, Grizz, if creating a birthday card and coloring with Aurora put a smile on your child's face, would that be a bad thing??? Would you be happy knowing your child was happy, or would you be miserable cause you didn't have a thrill ride to go on, you know.. a ride you couldn't enjoy WITH your child??? And chances are, any villains themed attraction would not be child friendly.. Look at Alien Encounter...

It's not the matter of me riding a thrill ride but it's the matter that my boy and lot of other young boys I know wouldn't enjoy that. I enjoy those rides (I'm not a father btw). But I take a lot of my young cousins and they don't want to do anything in FL. I mean if my child would like that then I would like it. But I don't see any of my cousins enjoying IASW pooh or anything else. There's a difference between riding a ride and enjoying it. You don't know if their intent on riding those rides is they want to or being made to ride it.

However I did see boys in DL's Fantasyland enjoying Mattehorn.

 

[Thrill]

Boys don't enjoy Small World? Boys don't enjoy Peter Pan? Boys don't enjoy PhilharMagic? Boys don't ride the Carousel? Boys don't like or enjoy Dumbo? Boys don't ride or enjoy Winnie the Pooh or Snow White???? I've seen boys online to meet the princesses before...

Do girls like pirates? I think pirates is geared toward boys... Girls tend to be more frightened with haunted houses, should we petition to have Haunted Mansion closed? And isn't an adventure on Tom Sawyer Island usually geared more toward boys who prefer adventures more than girls, generally speaking??? How about Hall of Presidents.. No female presidents in the history of this country, so would little girls enjoy sitting down inside a 30 minute show where a bunch of men stand on stage? The little girl has no female to look up in that attraction...

Sure, the princess parts of the expansion tend to lean toward girls, but are you saying boys won't enjoy a meal at be Our Guest Restaurant? Boys won't want to ride The Little Mermaid attraction?? Boys won't sit and listen to a story being told by Belle?? They won't want to meet Gaston or Beast, both very manly characters?? Don't boys draw birthday or Mother's Day cards for their moms, and on the cards, don't they draw balloons and flowers and rainbows and butterflies??? So, a boy can't enjoy drawing or coloring a card for Aurora??? I believe little boys would, in fact, enjoy these meet and greets very much... The 8 year old and older boy crowd may not be too interested, maybe even 7 year olds... But then again, would an 8 year old have enjoyed Pooh's playground?

The only thing they have to do is replace Pixie Hollow... With Pixie Hollow out of the picture, I don't see this leaning too heavily on the girlie side...

We aren't talking about clothes or toys here.. We are talking about theme park attractions geared for little kids to enjoy... I know boys won't want princess action figures or dolls or clothes... But, who is to say they won't enjoy these M&Gs???

BTW, Grizz, if creating a birthday card and coloring with Aurora put a smile on your child's face, would that be a bad thing??? Would you be happy knowing your child was happy, or would you be miserable cause you didn't have a thrill ride to go on, you know.. a ride you couldn't enjoy WITH your child??? And chances are, any villains themed attraction would not be child friendly.. Look at Alien Encounter...

I have to agree here... At first glance, it seems incredibly girly, but when you seriously consider it, it's not as bad as it's made out to be. The restaurants should be okay for boys (There is a Gaston restaurant, correct?), and The Little Mermaid dark ride won't be a problem. Dumbo isn't a gender-specific character, and a large portion of FLE involves Dumbo. Pixie Hollow is the big problem here. I think Neverland is the best alternative, as it allows Disney to involve the Disney Fairies franchise while still being entertaining for boys.

I think when all is said and done, FLE won't be as bad as we think.

 

[Captain Chaos]

More importantly, no one knows if PH is even being replaced. Like Wilt said, the only way to know is when things are (or are not) built. Read the article from Lutz again. Long on speculation, short on actual facts.....

Well, true... But Lee has said Pixie Hollow is dead... Unless things have changed... I'll believe Lee...

 

[Grizzly Hall 71]

Again, Philharmagic, Dumbo, Small world, Peter Pan, Winnie the Pooh, Snow White's Scary Adventures, the mermaid ride... And if the 6-12 year old boys don't want to, then let them go to Pirates, Tom Sawyer Island, Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion... Not everything has to cater to you or only certain age groups...

You don't even know what is replacing Pixie Hollow yet..

My point is those lands have rides geared to both genders. FL doesn't. And no I don't see many boys enjoying those rides but i do see them riding. There's a difference between a boy being forced to ride and a boy enjoying. I see a lot being forced.

 

[wsmith1978]

I say put in a Mary Poppins ride!! :sohappy:

Really, though, I'd love to see something relating to Mary Poppins, maybe Pete's Dragon... some of the classic movies from 60's and 70's.

 

[Captain Chaos]

It's not the matter of me riding a thrill ride but it's the matter that my boy and lot of other young boys I know wouldn't enjoy that. I enjoy those rides (I'm not a father btw). But I take a lot of my young cousins and they don't want to do anything in FL. I mean if my child would like that then I would like it. But I don't see any of my cousins enjoying IASW pooh or anything else. There's a difference between riding a ride and enjoying it. You don't know if their intent on riding those rides is they want to or being made to ride it.

However I did see boys in DL's Fantasyland enjoying Mattehorn.

Let me ask you, how old are your male cousins???

I am not saying that there won't be a segment of boys who won't enjoy this... I will even venture to say there will be a segment of girls who won't enjoy it... That's fine.. there are plenty of things for them to do throughout the Magic Kingdom.. Not everything has to include everyone...

I am for sure not the demographic they are aiming for with this expansion.. However, I am not upset at all about this expansion being heavy on princess stuff... I want to see the first phase of the expansion happen as planned because it delivers a nice, cohesive story to the forest...

I didn't like the Pixie Hollow idea from the start, but everything else was just fine with me..

My new beef is with hearing things may get cut... For what?? With TDOs's track record, it would be to save money... I'm waiting, somewhat patiently, to heart about what these so-called new plans and additions will be for the Fantasyland expansion... I am hoping it is something really well planned out and designed... I don't care if it is a thrill ride (great if it is) or a dark ride (great if it is)... As long as it isn't empty space filled with grassy hills and trees... Oh, and a DVC cart LOL...

 

[Captain Chaos]

My point is those lands have rides geared to both genders. FL doesn't. And no I don't see many boys enjoying those rides but i do see them riding. There's a difference between a boy being forced to ride and a boy enjoying. I see a lot being forced.

Shame on the parents for forcing their child to do something the child does not want to do.. Why is the parent forcing the child? Cause the parent is selfish... So, Grizz, should we shut down all Fantasyland since, as you put it, boys don't enjoy it???

People have to stop thinking that everything has to be done to satisfy everyone all of the time... there are plenty of things to do in Magic Kingdom.. You don't like PhilharMagic, go ride Pirates... Don't like Splash Mountain, go sit in Hall of Presidents... Can't stand Snow White's Scary Adventure, go hop on Space Mountain...

If Disney has to make things that appealed to only your or one demographic, Disney would be as bankrupt as Six Flags....

 

[Captain Chaos]

I say put in a Mary Poppins ride!! :sohappy:

Really, though, I'd love to see something relating to Mary Poppins, maybe Pete's Dragon... some of the classic movies from 60's and 70's.

Mary Poppins?? Ohh no.. Mary Poppins is a girl... Can't do that... I mean, how many young boys enjoy the Mary Poppins character meal in Grand Floridian?? oh yea.. MANY DO!!! LoL...

Same would happen here in Fantasyland.. I bet all the naysayers will be pleasantly surprised at the number of young boys who would enjoy making cards for a beautiful princess (little boy crushes anyone?????)