Al Lutz: Carsland for WDW, FLE not Bringing in Guests

[danlb_2000]

You're a Disney executive. The year is 2017 and you're thrilled the new Iron Man ride at DCA is pulling in the crowds and more popular than CL (if that's even possible). The year before you were also happy to see the CL clone at DHS also pulling in the crowds. Thank The Lord for the clone at DHS because that park was getting in some serious deep water with attendance figures before you opened it! Now, however, the MK is in big trouble attendance wise and needs a quick shot in the arm! Behold, you have Iron Man which you could now one there for a guaranteed fix! But wait! You can't! Universal will sue! Not fair... They cloned Harry Potter (we're still in the future) and that drove the crowds at their Hollywood studio AND they're cloning that über popular Transformers ride they opened in Orlando in 2014 for Hollywood which is sure also pull the Hollywood crowds... BUT we can't do the same thing they are doing with Transformers for Hollywood as we could do with Iron Man for WDW...

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be in that CEO's shoes! The company should first make a friendly offer for its right to use its own rights. If they refuse to talk, then all out corporate war should be waged "Jack Tramiel style".

In this scenario, if things have gotten to the point where only an Iron Man attractions can save WDW, then Disney has much bigger things to worry about. The deal Marvel/Universal deal is just one of many licensing deals between competing media companies and I doubt the executives loose much sleep over most of the them.

 

[Cody5242]

I've stayed at both he Waldorf and Hilton at bonnet creek and their both classy hotels. The Hilton at bonnet creek is x100 better than the one in dtd. That one has turned into Brazil USA

 

[alphac2005]

During the conference call, Iger explicitly stated:

Down to 81% with discounts during the popular Food & Wine, Halloween, Thanksgiving, and Christmas seasons is rather telling. This despite having a new resort (which usually attracts more guests, not less) and with the opening of the "New" Fantasyland. With nothing new coming online until the opening of SDMT, it doesn't bode well for 2013.

The simple math is if you build more rooms but don't give people reasons to occupy those additional rooms, the occupancy rate will decline.

I've ranted about it before but the "Value Resorts" are expensive now and building an even more expensive "Value Resort" does not encourage new guests. Neither, it appears, does the "New" Fantasyland.

P.S. The good news is WDW should continue to offer discounts for most of 2013.

Remember when their occupancy rates were the gold standard of the travel industry? You know, when they actually booked a near full house on a nightly basis? When we stayed with Loews at Universal a few weeks back, as our AP discounted room there was $174/night, while the lowest we could get at the Polynesian was $431/night. No thanks, TDO, a view of the parking lot at 2/3 higher of a price than a better equipped room and an excellent experience in its own right, it doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

Friends of ours that are casual fans of the parks, but not mentally questionable like us around here were saying to us that they felt that they simply built too much in Florida. Too many hotels, too many DVC units, and too many theme parks. They were saying that it seemed as though they were spread too thin and now instead of quality in every nook and cranny, quality has escaped them and WDW was stale and not the same anymore.

I think that it's always telling when the casual visitor that doesn't look at WDW as more than just a trip every year or two and isn't hardcore into the theme parks can make this rather telling and correct observation. Guess where their family is going on their trip this year? It's not WDW. And that's what should have the company nervous despite their delusional mindset that with all their new gimmicks that the parks will keep on humming and revenues keep climbing. You lose us cradle to grave extreme fans, OK, although that's a lot of guaranteed business over many years, we're a minority. You lose people like this family that I'm speaking of that are their typical "Disney" vacationgoer with plenty of cash to burn themselves, that's a problem, a big problem.

I remember that day that it seemed distressing that another company could operate or buy the parks. It doesn't sound so distressing with the modern era of The Walt Disney Company.

 

[alphac2005]

Consider (for example) a 7-day base ticket increased by almost 8% while DDP increased by over 10%. Further consider that spending and attendance is up, way up, at DLR.

WDW revenue growth did not match price increases. It's simple economics. As prices go up, fewer can afford them. WDW prices have exploded under Iger while nothing's been added to draw more people in. Attendance has declined in 2 of the last 3 years. Corporate Disney knows that recent trends are not good for the long-term health of WDW.

Prices have increased dramatically as you've so correctly noted while they continue their bait and switch style of offering "free" and "discounted" rooms and dining, but in the end, all the free and discounts don't make up for an ever higher cost. They've resorted to the pathetic practice of making people think they're getting a deal, but the only deal is that one way or another, it costs more.

They take us as their most knowledgeable as annoyances, I wonder what word they would describe the casual fan as?

 

[PeterAlt]

In this scenario, if things have gotten to the point where only an Iron Man attractions can save WDW, then Disney has much bigger things to worry about. The deal Marvel/Universal deal is just one of many licensing deals between competing media companies and I doubt the executives loose much sleep over most of the them.

If the things I've been reading here are true and nothing is done to reverse it, it could very well happen. No one company can keep their dominance in a competitive marketplace by riding on the coat tails of the people who built it forever.

 

[George]

They take us as their most knowledgeable as annoyances, I wonder what word they would describe the casual fan as?

Open wallets that they hope are wearing blinders so then don't notice the other entertainment offerings in the area.

 

[Goofyernmost]

All Stars become a value for me when they're $50 or less ... I've stayed for as little as $30 on CM rates. I believe the lowest regular rate there is now close to $90 a night. That's friggin absurd. In the last decade I've paid slightly more than that to stay at the WL and DAK Lodge and more than I've paid for PO and CS

Not that I'm not a little concerned about pointing out a major flaw in that logic, I'm a-scared of spirits, however, I might suggest that in the last decade we all paid a lot less for everything. I would sooner stay in a 3 star off-site "currently" for $50.00 per night. Bigger room, more flexibility and just more comfortable. In fact, I just did a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I was impressed by the original concept and by the quantity of the AAs and the motion of them (although not the artistry, as the half-cartoon/half realistic mix didn't do it for me). I went twice because the stuff i liked made me want to give it another spin. But the ride just wasn't all that fun. Thus, I said good, but not amazing. Had I not been at least somewhat impressed, I'd have said "not good".

And in that very park, I liked Stormrider, Tower of Terror, 20K, Indiana Jones, and the Little Mermaid show better (JttCotE was down).

To each their own, obviously... But I thought it couldn't have been any better. I thought the musical score was the best I've ever heard in an attraction (I hummed the whole thing for MONTHS), and I was fascinated in the ability of the attraction to tell me a clear story when I couldn't understand a word of the dialogue (outside of Compass of your Heart).

 

[danlb_2000]

If the things I've been reading here are true and nothing is done to reverse it, it could very well happen. No one company can keep their dominance in a competitive marketplace by riding on the coat tails of the people who built it forever.

I agree but this isn't happening because there is lack of ideas for great attractions, it's happening because of an unwillingness to build them. It is never going to get to a point where they only great attraction they can build is Marvel themed.

 

[George]

I agree but this isn't happening because there is lack of ideas for great attractions, it's happening because of an unwillingness to build them. It is never going to get to a point where they only great attraction they can build is Marvel themed.

Yep. It's actually incredibly easy to think of attraction ideas. I bet everyone on this board has a ton of ideas that would be fun. The hard part is the execution.

 

[twebber55]

I agree but this isn't happening because there is lack of ideas for great attractions, it's happening because of an unwillingness to build them. It is never going to get to a point where they only great attraction they can build is Marvel themed.

agree... you re on a role today

 

[MichWolv]

To each their own, obviously... But I thought it couldn't have been any better. I thought the musical score was the best I've ever heard in an attraction (I hummed the whole thing for MONTHS), and I was fascinated in the ability of the attraction to tell me a clear story when I couldn't understand a word of the dialogue (outside of Compass of your Heart).

The song did get stuck in my head...but not in good way! Kind of like It's a Small World -- it was there, and I really wished it wasn't after a while!

 

[OFTeric]

Remember when their occupancy rates were the gold standard of the travel industry?

For the past decade they have been artificially inflating occupancy by taking large blocks of rooms out of inventory:

Example:
a) closing French Quarter after 2001
b) taking buildings out of service at All Star primarily the Jazz Buildings, Broadway, and Hockey
c) taking floors out of service at some of the Deluxe properties

Please feel free to correct any of these statements. But it is widely accepted in the industry that you take WDW occupancy percentages with a whole bag of salt.

 

[alphac2005]

For the past decade they have been artificially inflating occupancy by taking large blocks of rooms out of inventory:

Example:
a) closing French Quarter after 2001
b) taking buildings out of service at All Star primarily the Jazz Buildings, Broadway, and Hockey
c) taking floors out of service at some of the Deluxe properties

Please feel free to correct any of these statements. But it is widely accepted in the industry that you take WDW occupancy percentages with a whole bag of salt.

They haven't been a gold standard in hotel or parks this century, period, so the point that I was making has nothing to do with the past decade plus. I was harkening back to when they actually did have truly packed hotels and a well run operation, which ended in the 90s.

 

[rael ramone]

You have good points. They have no reason or incentive to renegotiate. Again, if I were a Disney executive, I would be almost obsessive and compulsive in finding one. With all of the company's holdings, there must be something that could be waived at them like a carrot, or a business they are already being a partner of that they could excercise something to make them take notice.

The deal I would try to force them to renegotiate would be fair. I would let them continue with their rights, but I would try to freeze the status quo and add a loop hole to allow Disney to rightfully use the rights of a company they own (Marvel) any where on this planet, the moon, Mars, future space colonies, etc.

I think there's a better chance of seeing Rep. Markey posing with Iger wearing a Mouse Arrest band then seeing Comcast giving up the Marvel characters.

 

[djkidkaz]

Valid point on the cloning and Marvel conundrum. But Transformers in Orlando is already a clone of the original Transformers ride that opened at Universal Studios Hollywood last summer. It opened to good reviews in Hollywood about two weeks before Cars Land opened, and then it got lost in the stampede to Radiator Springs Racers. Cars Land squashed the ability for Universal Hollywood to make a big splash with Transformers, although it continues to operate daily now in Hollywood and is a pretty darn good ride.

Transformers The Ride 3-D, May 24th 2012

I think its funny that people around here talk about Universal like its about to be the top tier theme park in the world or even getting close to it. They did one amazing thing in Harry Potter and we all know a lot of that was due to the control that Rowling had. She wanted so much control that Disney passed on the idea. Harry Potter is amazing, no doubt, but then I see a photo like this and its essentially a show building with some paint on it and cutouts of Transformers. Where is the attention to detail they learned from the success of Potter? The ride itself is also a clone of Spider-Man with different characters. Im just not buying into the idea that Universal is becoming the end all be all of creating entertaining experiences in theme parks.

I made my first visit to Universal last year and I have to say that other than Potter, the whole place felt very Six Flags-ish to me. They have dated characters like Popeye and Dudley Do Right in place of Six Flags' Looney Tunes. Exposed coasters and thrill rides like Dr Doom and Hulk with queue lines that have very little to look at and are the epitome of what I can't stand about Six Flags' queue lines. The ride props and such are just very cheap looking ( ie. the large crate above your head on Jurassic Park that "falls" looks like its plastic and does not convey a sense of weight or danger ). And then you have all the outside food establishments which mimics Six Flags / Johnny Rockets. In my view, Harry Potter makes the whole rest of the park look cheap.

Now Im not saying by any means Disney is perfect as it is not and there are A LOT of things that need to be done around property, but unless Universal tears up its whole park, sans Potter, and rebuilds everything on par with the Potter expansion, they will never beat Disney. I think right now they are competing because of Potter and the fact that Disney isn't adding anything to its parks ride-wise, but if Disney decides to start building, I think Universal will take a huge hit.

 

[rael ramone]

Now Im not saying by any means Disney is perfect as it is not and there are A LOT of things that need to be done around property, but unless Universal tears up its whole park, sans Potter, and rebuilds everything on par with the Potter expansion, they will never beat Disney. I think right now they are competing because of Potter and the fact that Disney isn't adding anything to its parks ride-wise, but if Disney decides to start building, I think Universal will take a huge hit.

Does Disney have the ability to blow Universal out of the water? Of course they do*. Unfortunately, they are choosing not to. Their answer to Universal's growing attractions is them conceding that battle and just doubling down on extracting much, much, more on those who still go to WDW (and getting them on the back end with a mountain of Spam waiting for your return).

*- well maybe not as much with the forced exodus of WDI talent.

 

[Californian Elitist]

I think its funny that people around here talk about Universal like its about to be the top tier theme park in the world or even getting close to it. They did one amazing thing in Harry Potter and we all know a lot of that was due to the control that Rowling had. She wanted so much control that Disney passed on the idea. Harry Potter is amazing, no doubt, but then I see a photo like this and its essentially a show building with some paint on it and cutouts of Transformers. Where is the attention to detail they learned from the success of Potter? The ride itself is also a clone of Spider-Man with different characters. Im just not buying into the idea that Universal is becoming the end all be all of creating entertaining experiences in theme parks.

You have to remember that Universal Studios Hollywood is a movie studio first, theme park second. The studio has been there since 1913 or 1914, and the theme park came sometime in the 60s. There's no space to build show buildings like the ones you see at Disney.

I think Disney can learn something from Universal. For example, how to build a proper movie studio park with a decent and real backlot.

 

[danlb_2000]

I think its funny that people around here talk about Universal like its about to be the top tier theme park in the world or even getting close to it. They did one amazing thing in Harry Potter and we all know a lot of that was due to the control that Rowling had. She wanted so much control that Disney passed on the idea. Harry Potter is amazing, no doubt, but then I see a photo like this and its essentially a show building with some paint on it and cutouts of Transformers. Where is the attention to detail they learned from the success of Potter? The ride itself is also a clone of Spider-Man with different characters. Im just not buying into the idea that Universal is becoming the end all be all of creating entertaining experiences in theme parks.

I made my first visit to Universal last year and I have to say that other than Potter, the whole place felt very Six Flags-ish to me. They have dated characters like Popeye and Dudley Do Right in place of Six Flags' Looney Tunes. Exposed coasters and thrill rides like Dr Doom and Hulk with queue lines that have very little to look at and are the epitome of what I can't stand about Six Flags' queue lines. The ride props and such are just very cheap looking ( ie. the large crate above your head on Jurassic Park that "falls" looks like its plastic and does not convey a sense of weight or danger ). And then you have all the outside food establishments which mimics Six Flags / Johnny Rockets. In my view, Harry Potter makes the whole rest of the park look cheap.

Now Im not saying by any means Disney is perfect as it is not and there are A LOT of things that need to be done around property, but unless Universal tears up its whole park, sans Potter, and rebuilds everything on par with the Potter expansion, they will never beat Disney. I think right now they are competing because of Potter and the fact that Disney isn't adding anything to its parks ride-wise, but if Disney decides to start building, I think Universal will take a huge hit.

It's not a question of "beating Disney", its a question of whether Universal will offer a product that draws enough people away from WDW to cause Disney some serious pain. Disney's numbers to do not have to drop to anywhere near Universal's before they start getting into financial trouble.

 

[Californian Elitist]

It's not a question of "beating Disney", its a question of whether Universal will offer a product that draws enough people away from WDW to cause Disney some serious pain. Disney's numbers to do not have to drop to anywhere near Universal's before they start getting into financial trouble.

Exactly.