A Terror-rific Spirited 13th (ToT fans have lots to fear)...

[Cesar R M]

Not even, "the shops in Universal's Harry Potter area screwed my wallet?"

I wonder what Disney would be paying for exactly the same Nintendo expansion. USJ just came out and said it's costing $430 million so that's straight from the horses mouth. Would it be another billion dollar land?

Is he putting down TDS?

Starting construction next year and opening in 2018? That can't possibly be right.

I've read that RSR alone cost them $300 million and I just went searching to back it up and it didn't take much time at all to find it.

@TP2000 is a pretty respected member here and though I don't know if he has sources he also doesn't seem like the type to just spout random numbers.

I've also read that Diagon was closer to $450 million.

Only way I can imagine them opening the next year is.. if they pull a CHINA (aka an army of chinese workers working 24/7 nonstop, aka more than 5,000++ workers at same time)

 

[Cesar R M]

I had no idea! None at all. I'm shocked. Shocked I say! I definitely didn't figure that out from the trailers or general context clues at all!

I also heard...

Spoiler: very spoilerific, careful with photodave

I also heard that their sacrifice was also followed by many Boothans dying in the sequels....

I'm sure there's a few around here who would love to have the "option" to purchase a few

probably not real wealthy people.
They would rather dine in a real luxury restaurants.. I mean 45 USD? thats a medium level steak there..

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Is he putting down TDS?

No, he's criticizing two things. 1) A dynamic at Parks and Resorts where there are unequal standards of quality for projects, which leads to unequal budgets. See TSL and SWE currently under construction at DHS. 2) Just because a project gets a very generous budget, that budget, with all the flourishes which can be afforded, can't make up for poor design, poor planning, etc. TDS is the gold standard for theme park design, but that's an exception to the rule at the WDI of the 21st century. New Fantasyland has some of the most detailed areas in the Magic Kingdom, but suffers from poor building/environmental scale choices and weak offerings (ETwB and UtS:JotLM). DisneySea level details can't save you if they're attached to a bad foundation.

To quote Tim Delaney from another interview with the Season Pass in a discussion about DLP's Space Mountain
"So eventually we got the ride [Space Mountain] up and running and everyone would come to me and they were very complementary because the look of the mountain is very different. It's kind of this gold, brass look to it and it's got all these lighting effects on the top spires and all that, but my attitude about that was 'yeah it looks good but you know we aren't going to determine if this a successful attraction or not until we've actually riden the ride'.
I have this whole thing about ride philosophy it's this whole cake and frosting thing. The cake is the ride and the ride has gotta be good and then the decorations, the styling, and the theming is the frosting. [If] you have a cake that's all cake and not frosting it isn't any good and if you have a cake that's all frosting and no cake and it doesn't work. It has to be the right combination."
The Season Pass Podcast #115 - Tim Delaney Part 2: Disneyland Paris & Space Mountain

 

[The_Jobu]

No, he's criticizing two things. 1) A dynamic at Parks and Resorts where there are unequal standards of quality for projects, which leads to unequal budgets. See TSL and SWE at DHS at present. 2) Just because a project gets a very generous budget, that budget, with all the flourishes to be afforded to it, can't make up for poor design, poor planning, etc. TDS is the gold standard for theme park design, but that's an exception to the rule at the WDI of the 21st century. New Fantasyland has some of the most detailed areas in the Magic Kingdom, but suffers from poor building/environmental scale choices and weak offerings (ETwB and UtS:JotLM). DisneySea level details can't save you if they're attached to a bad foundation.

To quote Tim Delaney from another interview with the Season Pass in discussion about DLP's Space Mountain
"So eventually we got the ride [Space Mountain] up and running and everyone would come to me and they were very complementary because the look of the mountain is very different. It's kind of this gold, brass look to it and it's got all these lighting effects on the top spires and all that, but my attitude about that was 'yeah it looks good but you know we aren't going to determine if this a successful attraction or not until we've actually riden the ride'.
I have this whole thing about ride philosophy it's this whole cake and frosting thing. The cake is the ride and the ride has gotta be good and then the decorations, the styling, and the theming is the frosting. [If] you have a cake that's all cake and not frosting it isn't any good and if you have a cake that's all frosting and no cake and it doesn't work. It has to be the right combination."
The Season Pass Podcast #115 - Tim Delaney Part 2: Disneyland Paris & Space Mountain

I agree with him, even though I've enjoyed quite a few cakes without frosting.

 

[Mike S]

No, he's criticizing two things. 1) A dynamic at Parks and Resorts where there are unequal standards of quality for projects, which leads to unequal budgets. See TSL and SWE at DHS at present. 2) Just because a project gets a very generous budget, that budget, with all the flourishes to be afforded to it, can't make up for poor design, poor planning, etc. TDS is the gold standard for theme park design, but that's an exception to the rule at the WDI of the 21st century. New Fantasyland has some of the most detailed areas in the Magic Kingdom, but suffers from poor building/environmental scale choices and weak offerings (ETwB and UtS:JotLM). DisneySea level details can't save you if they're attached to a bad foundation.

To quote Tim Delaney from another interview with the Season Pass in discussion about DLP's Space Mountain
"So eventually we got the ride [Space Mountain] up and running and everyone would come to me and they were very complementary because the look of the mountain is very different. It's kind of this gold, brass look to it and it's got all these lighting effects on the top spires and all that, but my attitude about that was 'yeah it looks good but you know we aren't going to determine if this a successful attraction or not until we've actually riden the ride'.
I have this whole thing about ride philosophy it's this whole cake and frosting thing. The cake is the ride and the ride has gotta be good and then the decorations, the styling, and the theming is the frosting. [If] you have a cake that's all cake and not frosting it isn't any good and if you have a cake that's all frosting and no cake and it doesn't work. It has to be the right combination."
The Season Pass Podcast #115 - Tim Delaney Part 2: Disneyland Paris & Space Mountain

Thanks that clears it up.

Speaking of SWL and TSL does it seem to anyone else that space isn't being used very efficiently by these projects at DHS? SWL is 14 acres according to Disney and TSL is 10 according to people here who have mapped it out. That's 24 acres for 2 E Tickets and 2 C Tickets.

The reason this came up in my head is because of the recent Nintendo news. The area it's going in that's been described for USJ could potentially be 15 acres with rumors of anywhere between 3-5 rides (3 Es though I think one of those is more likely to be a D and 2 Cs). I don't think it'll use all 15 though because KidZone with E.T. is still only 10 unless they're finally using the huge empty plot by MIB here in Florida. Thoughts?

 

[BrianLo]

Thanks that clears it up.

Speaking of SWL and TSL does it seem to anyone else that space isn't being used very efficiently by these projects at DHS? SWL is 14 acres according to Disney and TSL is 10 according to people here who have mapped it out. That's 24 acres for 2 E Tickets and 2 C Tickets.

The reason this came up in my head is because of the recent Nintendo news. The area it's going in that's been described for USJ could potentially be 15 acres with rumors of anywhere between 3-5 rides (3 Es though I think one of those is more likely to be a D and 2 Cs). I don't think it'll use all 15 though because KidZone with E.T. is still only 10 unless they're finally using the huge empty plot by MIB here in Florida. Thoughts?

Apples to oranges. Rivers of America for example uses huge amounts of acreage for something that isn't even an E-ticket. Something like Kilimanjaro does the same for a single E. It's not a waste of space, it is what is needed to achieve the correct scope and scale they were after in either case.

I think we need to see the final product to know if space is unnecessarily wasted.

Personally I think we'll say yes in Toy Story's case and no in Star Wars' case. The latter of which they are after the attraction scope of something like RSR.

 

[Mike S]

Apples to oranges. Rivers of America for example uses huge amounts of acreage for something that isn't even an E-ticket. Something like Kilimanjaro does the same for a single E. It's not a waste of space, it is what is needed to achieve the correct scope and scale they were after in either case.

I think we need to see the final product to know if space is unnecessarily wasted.

Personally I think we'll say yes in Toy Story's case and no in Star Wars' case. The latter of which they are after the attraction scope of something like RSR.

I agree but I was thinking in the case that DHS simply needs more to do so are they really using their space wisely? TSL probably will get the brunt of complaints like it already is. For your RoA example the rest of the park still has plenty to do in the grand scheme of things. For the Safari, you got me there. Animal Kingdom has some of the same problems as DHS even after Avatar.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

Then how it does simulate the jump? an arm goes up and down from the "elevator" to elevate the riders?

The actual track that the arm is attached to elevates to simulate a track jump on the faux track above. The minecarts are not connected to the upper track at all, it would be for show. Presumably care would be taken to hide the track that you're actually riding on below.

 

[BrianLo]

I agree but I was thinking in the case that DHS simply needs more to do so are they really using their space wisely? TSL probably will get the brunt of complaints like it already is. For your RoA example the rest of the park still has plenty to do in the grand scheme of things. For the Safari, you got me there. Animal Kingdom has some of the same problems as DHS even after Avatar.

That's less an issue of space and more an issue of are they designing/spending wisely to appropriately enhance the DHS attraction menu?

That issue is a glaring no, it's unacceptable a 30 year old park that is getting a major major cash infusion/rethink still can't break a double digit number of rides. They would have been better spent scaling down and building more things.

That's why I keep harping on them not actually designing Star Wars for DHS. It 100% has the needs of DL in mind, which is the need for space more than raw attraction count. DHS has the complete opposite needs.

 

[Cesar R M]

The actual track that the arm is attached to elevates to simulate a track jump on the faux track above. The minecarts are not connected to the upper track at all, it would be for show. Presumably care would be taken to hide the track that you're actually riding on below.

Thats was my point from the start.. when it elevates.. imagine it failing and staying stuck on top and you get beheaded by the second track

 

[Mike S]

That's less an issue of space and more an issue of are they designing/spending wisely to appropriately enhance the DHS attraction menu?

That issue is a glaring no, it's unacceptable a 30 year old park that is getting a major major cash infusion/rethink still can't break a double digit number of rides. They would have been better spent scaling down and building more things.

That's why I keep harping on them not actually designing Star Wars for DHS. It 100% has the needs of DL in mind, which is the need for space more than raw attraction count. DHS has the complete opposite needs.

You would scale down SWL in DHS?

 

[jensenrick]

As for Disney main moneymaker which is animated and songs, Zootopia and Moana both nominated for Animated Film against Universal's Kubo and the Two Strings and Sing. In best original song, Moana only got nominated for How far I'll go and up against Can't Stop The Feeling (Trolls) and Faith (Sing). It seems the competition has been rising against Disney.

Oh wow! I would take back (a lot of) what I said about 2016 being a crap year, if Zootopia could win a GG.

As for song, I'd be very surprised if How Far I'll Go wins over Can't Stop the Feeling. I really liked Moana, but that is not that memorable of a song, while the other has been a chart topper.

 

[ford91exploder]

Only way I can imagine them opening the next year is.. if they pull a CHINA (aka an army of chinese workers working 24/7 nonstop, aka more than 5,000++ workers at same time)

The Russians are much more organized and can build things incredibly fast when the motivation is there and If Ol Vladimir says this is a 'Hero' project like the Olympics in Sochi I can easily imagine the Russki's pulling this off, Remember EPCOT only took 2 years from ceremony to opening. (but that was under a 'can-do' Walt Disney Productions where the Guest was the Customer) It's quite amazing what engineers and construction workers can do when they are not hobbled by 'Mahogany Row'.

 

[ford91exploder]

You would scale down SWL in DHS?

I think what @BrianLo is saying is that an E-ticket might be more profitably exchanged for a half dozen A-D tickets instead at DHS. So instead of a 2-E ticket SWL you would have a half dozen A-D tickets and an E-Ticket 'steaming weenie'.

 

[marni1971]

Speaking of SWL and TSL does it seem to anyone else that space isn't being used very efficiently by these projects at DHS?

Yep.

 

[Princess Leia]

Thanks that clears it up.

Speaking of SWL and TSL does it seem to anyone else that space isn't being used very efficiently by these projects at DHS? SWL is 14 acres according to Disney and TSL is 10 according to people here who have mapped it out. That's 24 acres for 2 E Tickets and 2 C Tickets.

The reason this came up in my head is because of the recent Nintendo news. The area it's going in that's been described for USJ could potentially be 15 acres with rumors of anywhere between 3-5 rides (3 Es though I think one of those is more likely to be a D and 2 Cs). I don't think it'll use all 15 though because KidZone with E.T. is still only 10 unless they're finally using the huge empty plot by MIB here in Florida. Thoughts?

I agree 100% about TSL, but don't forget that SWE is getting two restaurants and a store, along with the E-tickets. It should have a third attraction (and a fourth), but the glaring amount of unused space shouldn't be as noticeable as TSL.

 

[DDLand]

Internet numbers are silly garbage regardless of who they came from.

Carsland's costs have been totally conflated into the placemaking and other projects happening around DCA at the time. RSR was an expensive attraction, one of the most expensive Disney's ever done, but so are the other 5 slot car attractions (including the two Indys and Dinosaur since they share a huge amount of hardware and programming with the slot car rides). Adjusting for inflation, Test Track, Indy, Cars and Journey to the Center of the Earth are all budget busting mega attractions but they all had similar budgets accounting for inflation.

Diagon's cost is accounting for the Hogsmeade station for Hogwarts Express, the employee parking structure, and the superfund levels of cleanup that were needed for Jaws's constant fuel, chlorine, and peroxide leaks. Gringotts ride system was a tad under $130 million, same for the queue and show building.

I find this discussion thought provoking.

What we do know is the upgrade landed at 1.1 Billion in total. That's a number confirmed by Iger. My primary question would be where all the other money went? That leaves 840 Million for the rest of the expansion.
So supposing TSMM counts in the number (I've seen it said it's not, but that never made sense) from my memory we have:
1) 80 Million for TSMM http://www.disneylists.com/2016/03/...ry-midway-mania-at-disneys-hollywood-studios/ (it's worth noting that in the midst of the recession, when pricing would've been more favorable, Tokyo's cost of a new Midway landed at 120 Million dollars. While it's undoubtably more expensive to build in Tokyo, a 50% up charge is expensive. I wonder if the 80 Million dollar number doesn't include R&D)
2) 80-100 Million for Under the Sea, we'll split the difference and say 90 Million
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ollywood-studios.903114/page-114#post-7058173
3) 75 Million for WoC http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ywood-studios-yep.888644/page-60#post-6400873
4) 260 Million Cars Land

We're up to 505 Million, or less than half of the cost of this expansion and rebranding. The place making changes and Buena Vista Street couldn't have cost 595 Million dollars could they? Even with demolition that seems pretty unrealistic.

Do you have better numbers for these other projects? The math doesn't seem to add up. The most likely money pit of the DCA Rebrand seems to be Cars Land. 260 Million just seems really cheap especially knowing each Star Wars Land costs 1 Billion a piece with development cost split between two projects.

 

[doctornick]

I agree 100% about TSL, but don't forget that SWE is getting two restaurants and a store, along with the E-tickets. It should have a third attraction (and a fourth), but the glaring amount of unused space shouldn't be as noticeable as TSL.

That's kind of my take. TSL is IMHO an abomination with what we are getting relative to how much land and money is being used. DHS is screaming for a lot of new attractions, especially all ages stuff and what they came up with is so lacking.

In the same footprint, they could have done a more generic "PIxar" area with ~4 additional rides (2 flat rides and 2 dark rides). Even if they were all C-tickets, that would be fine because the key would be to up the attraction count and capacity before Star Wars opened. It's crazy that they are only adding two rides that will both have height restrictions and neither will have all that great capacity.

While they are at it, they also need to bring back a daytime parade for DHS and should have already updated the existing shows to new offerings (and tried to add other offerings, like perhaps the idea of a show in the Fantasmic theater during the day or more regular offerings in the "Flex" theater).

I actually don't mind the Star Wars plans and think two E-tickets for DHS is fine as long as they prepared the park with other offerings beforehand. Though DHS would have really benefited from the alleged cut third ride for that land. I do wonder what other things might be available in Star Wars in terms of non-ride things -- at the very least, I'm hoping/assuming there will be an updated version of Jedi Training and hopefully there might be other stuff like walk throughs to increase the "things to do" capacity.

 

[doctornick]

I agree but I was thinking in the case that DHS simply needs more to do so are they really using their space wisely? TSL probably will get the brunt of complaints like it already is. For your RoA example the rest of the park still has plenty to do in the grand scheme of things. For the Safari, you got me there. Animal Kingdom has some of the same problems as DHS even after Avatar.

I agree, though I think DAK is in better shape simply because the animal exhibits (and Rafiki's to some extent) provides a significant opportunity for "stuff to occupy folks" who are looking for more to do in the park beyond the rides/shows. That's less true at DHS, especially now that they've removed the SoA and a lot of the "backstage" type exhibits.

Don't get me wrong, though, DAK needs more attractions beyond Pandora, but I don't think it will be in nearly as bad shape as DHS.

Both DHS and DAK would benefit from some large scale entertainment though for the mid-day. Like a daytime parade at DHS and a water show (think Mythica) at DAK to utilize the RoL theater. That would greatly help with the concerns about not sufficient attractions.

 

[Kman101]

Reviews so far seem to be mixed. Some like Felicity Jones, others don't. Most seem to like the darker tone. Quite a few are unsure about Krennic, the big bad. One review (I think it was from the New York Times) felt like it had to guard the plot of the movie... even though practically any Star Wars fan can figure out what it's about through the trailers alone. Something else that's getting mixed reviews is the use of CGI to bring back a character who's actor has been deceased for years, or to bring one back because the actor/actress is now too old (it didn't state who the latter was, but I have a pretty good idea considering the timeline of the movie).

Those sound like minor quibbles to me of someone who had expectations that weren't meant in their head LOL

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I find this discussion thought provoking.

What we do know is the upgrade landed at 1.1 Billion in total. That's a number confirmed by Iger. My primary question would be where all the other money went? That leaves 820 Million for the rest of the expansion.
So supposing TSMM counts in the number (I've seen it said it's not, but that never made sense) from my memory we have:
1) 80 Million for TSMM http://www.disneylists.com/2016/03/...ry-midway-mania-at-disneys-hollywood-studios/ (it's worth noting that in the midst of the recession, when pricing would've been more favorable, Tokyo's cost of a new Midway landed at 120 Million dollars. While it's undoubtably more expensive to build in Tokyo, a 50% up charge is expensive. I wonder if the 80 Million dollar number doesn't include R&D)
2) 80-100 Million for Under the Sea, we'll split the difference and say 90 Million
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ollywood-studios.903114/page-114#post-7058173
3) 75 Million for WoC http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ywood-studios-yep.888644/page-60#post-6400873
4) 280 Million Cars Land

We're up to 525 Million, or less than half of the cost of this expansion and rebranding. The place making changes and Buena Vista Street couldn't have cost 575 Million dollars could they? Even with demolition that seems pretty unrealistic.

Do you have better numbers for these other projects? The math doesn't seem to add up. The most likely money pit of the DCA Rebrand seems to be Cars Land. 280 Million just seems really cheap especially knowing each Star Wars Land costs 1 Billion a piece with development cost split between two projects.

• Midway Mania was approved at an earlier date than the $1.2 billion DCA redo
• RSR alone was in the $250 million range, Mater's was around $100 million. The whole land was $500-600 million