A Spirited Perfect Ten

[Mike S]

I know we have had this discussion countless times but the thing where the fanbois always forget is per guest spending and that is where UNI is kicking WDW butt. And they are doing it with actual guest spending not just jacking up food and merchandise prices every 6 months to a year. That is where WDW is really losing out to UNI.

Speaking of guest spending, here's an idea for Universal: exclusive amiibo figures you can only buy at Nintendoland when it opens. I'm at the Nintendo World Store right now and there are lines for the release of the Jigglypuff amiibo that went out the door.

 

[Nubs70]

So much to learn, so much to find out.

As of now sadly one of the victims is critical.

While the ride has had issues, it is two years old now and had seemed to have grown out of teething problems and early design issues. I can't defend these. Sheared bolts. Chainguards ripped. Plenty of valleying during tests.

What we do know is empty test train(s) were sent round in Tuesday. For some reason a car of guests was sent out of station whilst these were continuing. An empty car valleyed about 40% of the way round. This caused the guest car to be held on A lift for some minutes. Between A lift and just before B lift is a single block zone. In this block was the stalled car. There are trim brakes in this zone but nothing to E stop.

The big question is how and why A lift started up again with a valleyed car still in the block.

I see a few scenerios:
Lack of interlocks - Design failure.
Failed interlocks - Maintenance/system check out failure.
Disabled interlocks - Human criminal failure.

This is an issue where engineers, supervisors, and operators can go to jail.

 

[culturenthrills]

Might have something to do with the quality and selection of merchandise not just cheap junk you can also find in the toy aisle of the local WalMart. In addition quality eateries that you can simply WALK into and be served yes you might wait Example I was at Hard Rock Cafe over the holidays half of it was closed for a private party and I only waited 45 minutes for a table.

I am a UNI AP holder and when we eat we usually eat in table service restaurants there. The price isn't that much more than a QS place and is way more relaxing. Mythos and Confisco Grille may be one of the best deals in theme park dining anywhere and I have never had a bad meal at either one. And like you said you can always walk right out of the parks to a place in Citywalk which are all way better deals than in restaurant at WDW. That and there is still more new restaurants and improvements coming to Citywalk. And as far as the QS places UNI has continued to improve their food at most of those places.

 

[ford91exploder]

So much to learn, so much to find out.

As of now sadly one of the victims is critical.

While the ride has had issues, it is two years old now and had seemed to have grown out of teething problems and early design issues. I can't defend these. Sheared bolts. Chainguards ripped. Plenty of valleying during tests.

What we do know is empty test train(s) were sent round in Tuesday. For some reason a car of guests was sent out of station whilst these were continuing. An empty car valleyed about 40% of the way round. This caused the guest car to be held on A lift for some minutes. Between A lift and just before B lift is a single block zone. In this block was the stalled car. There are trim brakes in this zone but nothing to E stop.

The big question is how and why A lift started up again with a valleyed car still in the block.

Like other tragedies Engineering lessons will be learned from this failure but Its always heartbreaking when something like this happens at a park.

 

[ford91exploder]

I see a few scenerios:
Lack of interlocks - Design failure.
Failed interlocks - Maintenance/system check out failure.
Disabled interlocks - Human criminal failure.

This is an issue where engineers, supervisors, and operators can go to jail.

Yep but on #1 who stamped the design that SHOULD have been caught as that's a basic safety feature for a coaster.

 

[ford91exploder]

I am a UNI AP holder and when we eat we usually eat in table service restaurants there. The price isn't that much more than a QS place and is way more relaxing. Mythos and Confisco Grille may be one of the best deals in theme park dining anywhere and I have never had a bad meal at either one. And like you said you can always walk right out of the parks to a place in Citywalk which are all way better deals than in restaurant at WDW. That and there is still more new restaurants and improvements coming to Citywalk. And as far as the QS places UNI has continued to improve their food at most of those places.

I also bought a Deluxe UNI AP over the holidays, It even includes VALET parking and a bottle of water when I arrive I guess we know which park actually WANTS my business.

 

[marni1971]

Yep but on #1 who stamped the design that SHOULD have been caught as that's a basic safety feature for a coaster.

If the interlocks were disabled by a maintainence mode then surely things continued to work as designed.

It could be a long time until we know and it would be wrong to speculate before then. There is however a reported small chance Merlin management will decide to remove the attraction.

 

[mahnamahna101]

I guess one would just have to ask themselves are their any attractions that don't attract the number of people that the others do in the same park, with capacity issues. For example, is there a hours long wait for any of the other M&G's, how full is CoP on any given day, are there lines stretching out along the path to check out the Tree House, how huge is the demand for Stitch. Dumbo, has been a long wait long before Capacity was an issue.

Capacity certainly does have an influence on line length, but, there are attractions that are people magnets, some for reasons that are undefinable by me, but, popularity is a key factor and if they were able now to charge extra for someone to see those things you can bet that they would be on the "E" list.

The Frozen M&G is low capacity, so I wouldn't necessarily call it popular. If it could squeeze 2,000-2,500/hr, I doubt the wait-time would be more than 20 min.

It's probably not even in the top 10 in terms of guest output. POTC, HM, IASW, Mermaid, all of the mountains, Buzz, Jungle Cruise, Philharmagic, Laugh Floor and the PeopleMover all have more visitors than the Anna/Elsa M&G on a daily basis. More people probably see the fireworks or MSEP than the M&G. I might even say Pooh. I can't imagine a M&G having more than 500-600/hr in terms of capacity. Hence the 3 hr lines.

Dumbo still isn't exactly high-capacity. Probably less than 1,500/hr. They'd need 4-5 Dumbos in order for it to be a true people-eater.

Well with CoP, Stitch, Laugh Floor, HoP, Philharmagic, Tiki Room and Country Bears, they really function as people-eaters. Which is why there's almost never a wait for any of them. 15-20 min is 'peak' for any of these.

The only thing that will ease the wait-times for the big 8 (JC, POTC, Big Thunder, Splash, HM, SDMT, Peter Pan, Space Mt.) is new, immersive adventures.

If New Fantasyland had a phase 2 (slated to open in 2016) that included:

1. B&TB trackless dark ride
2. Mickey and Friends circus show (Barnstormer replacement)
3. Philharmagic and Barnstormer relocation to Animation Courtyard at DHS
4. Peter Pan expansion/revamp using the old Philharmagic building
5. IASW refurb/upgrade
6. Wonderland mini-land (includes M&G and the Curious Labyrinth)
7. Bald Mountain (E-ticket thrill ride, located in the very back corner of Fantasyland)

SDMT would go down to 45-50 min waits during peak times. Peter Pan would have room for more elaborate show scenes, bigger RVs, more RVs at a time, and therefore shorter wait-times during peak times (25-35 min as opposed to 60-90 min). IASW would go back to 10-15 min waits during peak times, while Mermaid and Pooh would be near walk-ons all day.

The same logic applies to other sections. If Tomorrowland were to add 3-4 compelling attractions using some of the old Speedway plot and some space behind it and Space, the lines for Space Mountain will decrease a little. Especially if the TRON speedbike coaster and an original E-ticket of sorts were added back there. Stitch could get a show between Space and CoP.

Buzz could have eased up wait times (20-25 min as opposed to 50-60 min) if Laugh Floor and Stitch were rethemed/revamped into more compelling additions.

Splash and Big Thunder might have reasonable wait-times if backstage areas were reworked to allow Frontierland expansion beyond the berm and a new pathway that leads back to Liberty Square or even the Tangled area. Western River Expedition and the old Geyser Mountain concept would do wonders for this section.

A major Adventureland expansion (with Arabia and Mysterious Island sub-lands) would especially ease wait-times for Jungle Cruise. An Aladdin show, and clones of Sinbad and JttCotE from DisneySea would cut Jungle Cruise/POTC wait-times in half since this section of the park would have more than just 2 attractions.

MK has plenty of opportunities to make up lost capacity if TDO were willing to invest in seriously reworking backstage infrastructure. Rather than spending $2-2.5 billion on MM+, they should have spent $1 billion reworking MK's backstage areas and another $1.5 billion fixing up either Epcot or DHS. Then, all 4 parks are set up for future expansion/success. MK needs 4-5 more E-tickets (DL has 11... soon to be 12, while MK only has 7). Bald Mountain, JttCotE, Western River Expedition, an original Tomorrowland E-ticket, and a B&TB trackless dark ride along with a massively upgraded Peter Pan would do wonders for wait-times and capacity. Add in some smaller experiences and better utilization of current 'dead zones' (Stitch/Laugh Floor, CoP, northern part of Storybook Circus, parts of Liberty Square, etc) - MK is in good shape.

MK needs to grow capacity to allow their older E-tickets to have leg room for refurbs/upgrades. But in order to expand MK, Epcot needs compelling attractions and some more pavillions/countries to utilize its insane capacity. At full build-out, Epcot might be able to get 200,000-220,000 guests at a single time (every expansion pad used, all of the dead spaces reopened). DHS needs some major TLC. AK needs to keep growing and giving guests enough to do for a whole day.

 

[ford91exploder]

If the interlocks were disabled by a maintainence mode then surely things continued to work as designed.

It could be a long time until we know and it would be wrong to speculate before then. There is however a reported small chance Merlin management will decide to remove the attraction.

What I was referring to was a interlock which possibly did not exist, When you build something like a coaster or a bridge a Civil engineer must certify the design with their 'STAMP' which states the design meets all current design guidelines and appropriate legal requirements.

If a interlock did not exist to prevent a launch when another train was valleyed it's a design review failure. If it was overidable by the operator that was a even worse design failure,

I can see an override mode from the PLC system running the coaster but not from a operator station.

 

[Bairstow]

When I was at UNI it was common to see people walking out of Ollivander's with 4-5 wands per person at roughly $50/wand. Kids and adults lined up 3 deep at all the interactive displays.

How does WDW monetize Agent P???

I think it's a little late to monetize Agent P, since it and the Kim Possible thing were the proof-of-concept that showed that a Magiquest-type activity could be implemented in a full-scale theme park. This is what paved the way for Universal's wands in the first place.

Going forward, Joe Rohde has already said that there are going to be interactive elements built into the surrounding area of the Avatar expansion at Animal Kingdom. Assuming that these elements are tied somehow into guests' MagicBand, perhaps Disney could have them function on a mild upcharge system- so that making the magic vines light up or whatever automatically adds a $3 charge to the MagicBand of the guest who activated it. If that's too aggressive, maybe have the bands get one or two "free" effect activations before they have to be "recharged" at an upcharge kiosk. In this way, the interactive elements of the land would function much like a video arcade.

 

[wogwog]

I also bought a Deluxe UNI AP over the holidays, It even includes VALET parking and a bottle of water when I arrive I guess we know which park actually WANTS my business.

I am local in Central Florida mainly for multiple cruise terminals being a reasonable drive from here. I manage to rack up high double digit days cruising annually due to generous Florida resident discounts. Some of those on DCL as the ships have not been totally trashed by Disney like the parks. I have never purchased a WDW park pass. I manage to visit a few times a year when visiting family comes, and I always score a free pass from local friends who work for the mouse. But Universal definitely wants the locals business. I finally relented and bought one after living here several years after badgering by my family. The Uni local pass is extremely inexpensive especially when compared to WDW. They even gave me a 15 month pass for the price of 12 by stating I had a Coke can with their ad on it and I was also given a discount on the price. Not trying to sell anyone on Uni. I will probably only use the pass four or five times. But the respective web sites for Uni and WDW tell you all you need to know of the price difference especially locals.

When family does visit I offer breakfast and dinner at my place. The family packs a lunch, snacks, and beverage to take to the parks. They find a table in a QS location indoors and have their "free" meal. They can all afford to eat any place they choose. A few years ago they ate in the parks. They choose not to pay ridiculous prices for the poor quality food in the World currently. Like many the family trips have seen WDW have reduced numbers of days and Uni days have increased. They also do not mind eating at Uni rather than packing a lunch.

WDW souvenirs? Very little they have not seen before. Uni, bags full.

I do not want to start a back and forth Uni vs. WDW. To each his own. I am a life long Disney fan. Lived near Disneyland for decades and always had a pass. I still visit Disneyland and DCA more days a year than WDW even living minutes from WDW. I have visited every other park in the world multiple times on business and pleasure trips so I still love Mickey. WDW needs a serious intervention on value and quality to regain my business. They can have the one and done and every several years folks, but not me.

 

[brb1006]

The Walt statue in Tokyo is at the end of World Bazaar, on a little terrace overlooking the Central Plaza. And it's very easy to miss.

It wasn't a Country Fair, it was the Disneyland State Fair '87, to be exact. And yeah, they put a Ferris Wheel in the middle of the Hub right in front of the Castle. And it was super tacky, and the Imagineers threw a fit.

Even the paying visitors complained. So they moved it after a month.

Except they moved it to the front of the park, right in front of the train station. Seriously.

Didn't Walt dislike the idea of having a Ferris wheel at Disneyland? So why did they go against it?

 

[asianway]

The Walt statue in Tokyo is at the end of World Bazaar, on a little terrace overlooking the Central Plaza. And it's very easy to miss.

It wasn't a Country Fair, it was the Disneyland State Fair '87, to be exact. And yeah, they put a Ferris Wheel in the middle of the Hub right in front of the Castle. And it was super tacky, and the Imagineers threw a fit.

Even the paying visitors complained. So they moved it after a month.

Except they moved it to the front of the park, right in front of the train station. Seriously.

And TDS just got a Storytellers-in between the two banks of turnstiles

 

[Mike S]

The Frozen M&G is low capacity, so I wouldn't necessarily call it popular. If it could squeeze 2,000-2,500/hr, I doubt the wait-time would be more than 20 min.

It's probably not even in the top 10 in terms of guest output. POTC, HM, IASW, Mermaid, all of the mountains, Buzz, Jungle Cruise, Philharmagic, Laugh Floor and the PeopleMover all have more visitors than the Anna/Elsa M&G on a daily basis. More people probably see the fireworks or MSEP than the M&G. I might even say Pooh. I can't imagine a M&G having more than 500-600/hr in terms of capacity. Hence the 3 hr lines.

Dumbo still isn't exactly high-capacity. Probably less than 1,500/hr. They'd need 4-5 Dumbos in order for it to be a true people-eater.

Well with CoP, Stitch, Laugh Floor, HoP, Philharmagic, Tiki Room and Country Bears, they really function as people-eaters. Which is why there's almost never a wait for any of them. 15-20 min is 'peak' for any of these.

The only thing that will ease the wait-times for the big 8 (JC, POTC, Big Thunder, Splash, HM, SDMT, Peter Pan, Space Mt.) is new, immersive adventures.

If New Fantasyland had a phase 2 (slated to open in 2016) that included:

1. B&TB trackless dark ride
2. Mickey and Friends circus show (Barnstormer replacement)
3. Philharmagic and Barnstormer relocation to Animation Courtyard at DHS
4. Peter Pan expansion/revamp using the old Philharmagic building
5. IASW refurb/upgrade
6. Wonderland mini-land (includes M&G and the Curious Labyrinth)
7. Bald Mountain (E-ticket thrill ride, located in the very back corner of Fantasyland)

SDMT would go down to 45-50 min waits during peak times. Peter Pan would have room for more elaborate show scenes, bigger RVs, more RVs at a time, and therefore shorter wait-times during peak times (25-35 min as opposed to 60-90 min). IASW would go back to 10-15 min waits during peak times, while Mermaid and Pooh would be near walk-ons all day.

The same logic applies to other sections. If Tomorrowland were to add 3-4 compelling attractions using some of the old Speedway plot and some space behind it and Space, the lines for Space Mountain will decrease a little. Especially if the TRON speedbike coaster and an original E-ticket of sorts were added back there. Stitch could get a show between Space and CoP.

Buzz could have eased up wait times (20-25 min as opposed to 50-60 min) if Laugh Floor and Stitch were rethemed/revamped into more compelling additions.

Splash and Big Thunder might have reasonable wait-times if backstage areas were reworked to allow Frontierland expansion beyond the berm and a new pathway that leads back to Liberty Square or even the Tangled area. Western River Expedition and the old Geyser Mountain concept would do wonders for this section.

A major Adventureland expansion (with Arabia and Mysterious Island sub-lands) would especially ease wait-times for Jungle Cruise. An Aladdin show, and clones of Sinbad and JttCotE from DisneySea would cut Jungle Cruise/POTC wait-times in half since this section of the park would have more than just 2 attractions.

MK has plenty of opportunities to make up lost capacity if TDO were willing to invest in seriously reworking backstage infrastructure. Rather than spending $2-2.5 billion on MM+, they should have spent $1 billion reworking MK's backstage areas and another $1.5 billion fixing up either Epcot or DHS. Then, all 4 parks are set up for future expansion/success. MK needs 4-5 more E-tickets (DL has 11... soon to be 12, while MK only has 7). Bald Mountain, JttCotE, Western River Expedition, an original Tomorrowland E-ticket, and a B&TB trackless dark ride along with a massively upgraded Peter Pan would do wonders for wait-times and capacity. Add in some smaller experiences and better utilization of current 'dead zones' (Stitch/Laugh Floor, CoP, northern part of Storybook Circus, parts of Liberty Square, etc) - MK is in good shape.

MK needs to grow capacity to allow their older E-tickets to have leg room for refurbs/upgrades. But in order to expand MK, Epcot needs compelling attractions and some more pavillions/countries to utilize its insane capacity. At full build-out, Epcot might be able to get 200,000-220,000 guests at a single time (every expansion pad used, all of the dead spaces reopened). DHS needs some major TLC. AK needs to keep growing and giving guests enough to do for a whole day.

Please take your posts to the Imagineering section. Thank you.

 

[Cesar R M]

Just like memes and GIFS.

Not all of them.
because unlike the silly "BUT DISNEY IS A BUSINESS!"... the memes and gifts can be used to add comedy or pull sarcasm when blatant stupidity/insanity is obvious.

 

[Cesar R M]

Speaking of guest spending, here's an idea for Universal: exclusive amiibo figures you can only buy at Nintendoland when it opens. I'm at the Nintendo World Store right now and there are lines for the release of the Jigglypuff amiibo that went out the door.
View attachment 95793

Interesting to see that many male adults lining up.

 

[brb1006]

Interesting to see that many male adults lining up.

Well this is Nintendo we're talking about.

 

[mahnamahna101]

Please take your posts to the Imagineering section. Thank you.

What? It's tied to the topic of capacity. The only way MK will fix its capacity problem and spread crowds isn't through artificial MM+, but organic expansion. And also, Epcot and DHS need to be reworked. AK needs to continue to grow.

If Philly cheese-steaks, hotel occupancy, Shanghai Disneyland, non-WDW attraction talk, revenue/attendance, the ethics of modern journalism and other topics are allowed, why not some blue-sky? I'm adding something constructive rather than just being 'WDW sucks. It has a lot of stuff that needs to be fixed.' I'm providing a solution to that problem.

This thread has no real focus, so as long as it's tied to WDW or the Orlando tourism market, I don't see what's wrong. Honestly, blue-sky Imagineering for WDW is more on-topic than rants about Iger or Shanghai Disneyland. Or anything Disney-related that isn't actually about WDW (the new Star Wars movies, DLP, Tokyo Disney, Disneyland's 60th, Disney Cruise Line, any Disney movie not featured in WDW currently, etc) . Those are explicitly tied to WDW or TDO.

I just don't see why you and PhotoDave and others really care if someone does some armchair Imagineering in a thread with no topic or real sense of purpose.

 

[1023]

What I was referring to was a interlock which possibly did not exist, When you build something like a coaster or a bridge a Civil engineer must certify the design with their 'STAMP' which states the design meets all current design guidelines and appropriate legal requirements.

If a interlock did not exist to prevent a launch when another train was valleyed it's a design review failure. If it was overidable by the operator that was a even worse design failure,

I can see an override mode from the PLC system running the coaster but not from a operator station.

I think Gerstlauer may have some explaining to do. I also think the 6 coasters they have under construction or have recently finished, need to be reviewed. (Yup, there are some in the US, coaster enthusiasts.)

If it was an operator issue, that will be something Merlin will have to explain.

*1023*

 

[Cesar R M]

Like other tragedies Engineering lessons will be learned from this failure but Its always heartbreaking when something like this happens at a park.

sometimes they dont learn. Because someone ALWAYS wants to cheapen out on something.. or lazy out on others. (example.. cheapening out in maintenance.. lazying out following the security step by step)

Anyone remembers how United and American tried to "lazy out" their engine maintenance/replacement on their DC10's ? removing the full pylon with a forklift rather than the engine and pylon in separated processes?
They ended cracking and damaging the pylon structures.. which ended in the awful on video crash of American flight 191.