A Spirited Perfect Ten

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Dining in the late 90s (96-01 in my opinion) was the pinnacle to me. They really swung in the creative direction even with the QSR. Then in the early to mid-00s it swung drastically in the other directions. We are slowly creeping back to the mid-90s levels ever so slowly (if DDP would just die, that'd be great).

Uh oh, I'm being negative. That's really going to throw folks off. :D

The Disney Dining Plan was really the thing that started us down the path of SubPar food. I feel its bouncing back too.

Most servers are ecstatic when they hear I'm using good old fashioned Money instead of the DDP.
 

Lee

Adventurer
But from the perspective of history, it's clear that a new benchmark is about to be set at WDW with the addition of the Frozen Experience in the WS at EPCOT. It will redefine guest encounters with all things that are theme park related. Visitors of all ages will exit from that attraction singing the theme song and looking for warm hugs. After leaving the Frozen Pavilion the goodness will stick with people. They'll even be pleased with the sounds of chain saws echoing across the WS Lagoon.

In the future, Disney historians will look back to the time when the Frozen attraction was first introduced into the WS and wonder why it was not added sooner.
Or, more likely...not.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
I know we joke about this kind of thing, but I totally would have bought Mickey-as-Mario and Stitch-as-Pikachu plushes! The merchandise for Nintendo could be big for Uni.

To be honest, if there even was a possibility of Disney - it's stuff like that which would have turned Nintendo off. They are so protective of their characters. They don't just not give a frak like Lucas didn't, and said it was OK for Darth Vader to be doing the Batusi and Chewbacca to moon walk, LOL. With Universal, they know they will get the authentic treatment.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
To be honest, if there even was a possibility of Disney - it's stuff like that which would have turned Nintendo off. They are so protective of their characters. They don't just not give a frak like Lucas didn't, and said it was OK for Darth Vader to be doing the Batusi and Chewbacca to moon walk, LOL. With Universal, they know they will get the authentic treatment.
Not saying you're wrong, but, I do have a question. What exactly is an authentic treatment of a digital image and man made script. Seems like anything they could possible do would have to be authentically an unreal animation. It kind of reminds me of a segment of Friends where the group was upset because Chandler said that he didn't cry when Bambi's mother was killed off. His reply was, Oh, yea I got real upset when the guy stopped drawing the deer.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Dining in the late 90s (96-01 in my opinion) was the pinnacle to me. They really swung in the creative direction even with the QSR. Then in the early to mid-00s it swung drastically in the other directions. We are slowly creeping back to the mid-90s levels ever so slowly (if DDP would just die, that'd be great).

Uh oh, I'm being negative. That's really going to throw folks off. :D

Is H--l freezing over I actually agree with you on this!
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
Here's what I've learned from this wall of text. You're kind of stuck up about food and entertainment because your mom exposed you to it. You went to Disney when you were 7-ish. You went back when you were 23-ish and probably infinitely more stuck up. Disney didn't change all that much, but you had changed a great deal. While WDW may have declined from a 9 to a 5 at that point, your snobbery was exponentially greater than when you were 7. What was probably a 3 was now well past 11 on the snob-o-meter.
I'm actually probably a lot less snobbish about food than I was as a kid given that my health became a more important factor for me since my teen years (as well as having gone through some rough financial years in there as well and having to deal with lesser quality food at times). But I will say that far more people could stand to be food snobs, it's not even remotely a bad idea to have high standards in food quality. It's objectively a good thing for everyone in fact to give yourself some higher standards in that part of your life. It would put places like McDonalds out of business (glad to see they're suffering). Or insert all the branded junk food garbage you constantly see pushed in the fronts of groceries that neither actually tastes very good NOR is good for people. So yeah if i'm a food snob, then it's one form of snobbery that is beneficial and good to have. It's actually kind of common sense and i'm ok with it. Unlike actual rude and trashy snobbery directed towards less fortunate people.

While there are issues at Disney, and always have been, you basically went to Disney when you were the target audience and you returned as a stuck up 20-something with all the righteous indignation that accompanies that. You were appalled that WDW did not fill you with awe as it did when you were 7, but instead of the self reflection required to understand that most people change from the time they are 7 to the time they are 23 (kudos to you for not, apparently) you blamed the park.
Actually I basically went to Disney when EVERYONE was the target audience, no exclusions and not just the singular demographic of small children (skewed particularly towards little girls) and/or drunks. It's a good business practice, something i'm interested to hear that Universal is practicing more now (Nintendo being one supposedly aimed towards families and all ages instead of just children OR adults). Here's a quote from someone i'm sure is of no consequence whatsoever and clearly doesn't know jack about anything:

"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway."

^Geeze, what moron made that quote? I'm laughing at how foolish he was, he must have never gotten anywhere in life and died a miserable failure.

You came here and found a group that shares your sentiment, but given that you had no real adult experience at WDW other than it failed to meet your lofty expectations, you fumble to articulate the reason you were disappointed and you've fallen into a pattern of hilarious mimicry of others points with long winded post containing little substance.
I've been pretty specific about what has disappointed me with WDW that has ballooned out of control to an extent that wasn't remotely as big of an issue prior to the 90's. It is prudent to recall that the expectations I have for Disney World were not set by myself, but by the Disney company. I am merely holding them to their own standards. But by all means, have some substance and attempt to find even more excuses to ignore facts and reason:

- removed trees in areas that beg for shade relief (not to even mention the aesthetic problems)
- paint chipping frequently as touch ups are no longer applied for general overnight work
- many rows of burned out light bulbs (Grand Floridian's trim lighting has almost completely nonexistent for years)
- nonworking or missing animatronics on rides that are allowed to continue operating in such conditions for months if not years
- work lighting being allowed to operate while guests are around (whether in rides, queues or elsewhere) with the cast members being oblivious
- mold and water damage plastering the walls, ceilings and carpets of rides
- little in unique merch that can only be found at specific shops and parks (there are a few but dwindling number of exceptions remaining)
- removed attractions with no suitable replacement (or no replacement at all)
- removed entertainment offerings
- dirt and litter that is no longer picked up in a timely manner
- bathrooms that are filthy and remain that way due to custodial being reduced and stretched thin and not patrolling the areas properly (this has gotten far worse more recently)
- food made out of pre-prepared and low quality ingredients, many of the quick service locations lose more and more taste as time goes on
- monorail interiors that stink and are literally (yes literally) falling apart
- downgraded hotel room decor (lots of removed Disney quality details, replaced by generic detail non distinguishable from any other motel/hotel)
- reduced amenities for hotel guests (DVC guests have complained about the same for them, i'm not one of them though so can't speak from experience)
- noticeably unhappy and overwhelmed cast members, from a multitude of issues (some guest related, many related to how they're treated and trained by higher ups)

Your argument of hilarious mimicry can just as easily (moreso in fact) be turned on its butt and used to describe the people who blindly fall into Disney's clutches to defend everything they do. The difference is that the reality is far more skewed towards the company not being what it used to be, rather than being as good if not better than it was. It again gives me no pleasure to have to agree with people on negative WDW affairs.
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Not saying you're wrong, but, I do have a question. What exactly is an authentic treatment of a digital image and man made script. Seems like anything they could possible do would have to be authentically an unreal animation. It kind of reminds me of a segment of Friends where the group was upset because Chandler said that he didn't cry when Bambi's mother was killed off. His reply was, Oh, yea I got real upset when the guy stopped drawing the deer.
Because good fiction isn't just doing whatever.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
Is H--l freezing over I actually agree with you on this!

Dining in the late 90s (96-01 in my opinion) was the pinnacle to me. They really swung in the creative direction even with the QSR. Then in the early to mid-00s it swung drastically in the other directions. We are slowly creeping back to the mid-90s levels ever so slowly (if DDP would just die, that'd be great).

Uh oh, I'm being negative. That's really going to throw folks off. :D

The Disney Dining Plan was really the thing that started us down the path of SubPar food. I feel its bouncing back too.

Most servers are ecstatic when they hear I'm using good old fashioned Money instead of the DDP.
I somewhat agree with these sentiments, with very cautious optimism though. It would be nice to have some hope. We shall see whether they continue to climb.

Within the past 6 months, I have had a wide range of quality of food at WDW. Ranging from bad, to mediocre to surprisingly good food experiences during my most recent two trips. So pretty much across the board in quality. The quick services at MK continue to be very poor, the Beauty and the Beast food is mediocre at best, and so were the bland kiosks I sampled at Food and Wine.

But as I mentioned, I think Morocco seems to be doing things right (even Tangerine Cafe having some pretty good food for a quick service). And I enjoyed the food I sampled at France's Flower and Garden kiosk last week. Heck I even had a fairly solid tasting eclair at France's bakery last week. Not amazing or up to par with a REAL quality French one but fairly tasty regardless, better than I remember in recent memory from the France bakery (which was admittedly shortly before the newer larger bakery was built).
 
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gmajew

Premium Member
@gmajew, when you say, "not as fast as we on this board want" it makes us sound unreasonable. The last E Ticket the MK got was 23 years ago. 4 years before my college freshman was born. The last E Ticket built anywhere on property, my high schooler was in kindergarten.

Yes, I think that pace is unacceptable. Maybe you believe I'm unreasonable.

Depends on what the definition of E tickets is. We have had this discussion before and if you mean thrill ride then no doubt it has been a long long time. But is the definition of E ticket is a ride that people love that brings them an experience they want to ride over and over again in an environment they can get lost in. Then I would argue NFL is that.
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
I've been pretty specific about what has disappointed me with WDW that has ballooned out of control to an extent that wasn't remotely as big of an issue prior to the 90's.
How do you know this laundry list of comparisons are valid beyond taking others word for it?

Or are you going to tell me that at 7 years old you noticed and cataloged all of the above for comparison 13 years later?

I'm not saying that the points aren't valid, I'm saying that you are mimicking others and these opinions of the parks in the 90s aren't yours. My point has nothing to do about Disney or the current or past state of the parks. It has everything to do about your opinion not being valid when comparing the resort in the 90s because you were two years removed from potty training.

Rail away about the current state of the park, but drop the act that your opinion of WDW superiority in the 90s is your own.

Not amazing or up to par with a REAL quality French one but fairly tasty regardless, better than I remember in recent memory from the France bakery (which was admittedly shortly before the newer larger bakery was built).
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where you told us that you enjoyed French food and that you had been to France. Could you shoehorn that into the conversation some more?
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Yes and No. None of the Square Enix releases of Kingdom Hearts made it to Nintendo Platforms besides the DS. TSMM did. Epic Mickey did. Disney Infinity has. But I think thats more about reaching the demographic their title is trying to reach. So they've got a decent video game relationship.

Yeah, but something...happened.

Besides testing Nintendo DS technology in the parks, and the various promotional partnerships as @Mike S pointed out, Disney/Avalanche had initially reached out to Nintendo to be a partner on Disney Infinity. They declined, and now we have amiibo, Nintendo's version - which is selling in record numbers with insane consumer demand while Infinity 2.0/Marvel pretty much landed with a great big thud in the clearance bin.

Perhaps it is all totally unrelated - but I sure would like to know more. :)

I don't see Nintendo as a decent fit whatsoever for any theme park properties. It just wouldnt work, IMO.

Oh, that I do have to disagree with. People have been suggesting this for 30 years for a reason. And the types of rides that would work are actually Universal's specialty. As much as I prefer practical versus screen, in this case - it's the most natural thing imaginable.

They have plenty of colorful, and some cuddly, characters for Meet & Greets. Nintendo Cafe serves videogame themed park food, with special colorful deserts that come with little Nintendo figures kids can collect and take home.

Imagine a Mario Kart ride, a la Gringott's. One that has multiple virtual tracks available, like Star Tours. That's an excuse to bring you through dozens of famous Nintendo environments. I can already see myself queuing up repeatedly so I can get the Luigi's Mansion track.

And then you go over to Super Smash Bros - The Experience and go on a Spidey/Transformers style tour of yet more famous Nintendo locations and the possibility to meet just about any character from the Nintendo universe on the journey.

(I'm going to trust those of you who say Marvel is at Universal to stay, it's funny because I'm only an occasional Smash Bros player, but I can't help but think it seems insanely obvious to me even based on my limited knowledge of the franchise that you could actually almost completely convert Spiderman to Super Smash Brothers by changing the audio/video alone. The "to the top of the building" effect is nearly identical to a Smash Bros smash move, where the character is flung some distance in the air away. Bowser's already got his fire ball effect, etc.)

Then you finish off at the Nintendo World Store, which as the first Nintendo World Arcade, featuring classic and modern video games (the Mario Kart sit-down machine is already so popular than when chains get it they advertise it specifically), and they offer some exclusive experience like a virtual reality Star Fox Command pod a la Disneyquest.

If this was WDW we were talking about, I'd deserve to be banished to the amateur Imagineer forum for not taking my meds and posting crazy talk. But at Universal? With their current track record, and the cross-promotional blitz it stands to get? The above experience is not only entirely possible, but I think it's closer to what we will end up getting than we may think.



Plus as @ParentsOf4 pointed out earlier, its just about getting the warm bodies to Orlando. Theyre going to go to WDW. Yes, theyre going to Universal too and when you go to Universal, you money goes back to Disney as part of the licensing for Marvel.

Its a win-win for everyone.

Do we really think that Disney makes that much money? I know that the licensing fee itself is said to be "absurdly low" - but is there really THAT much Marvel merch going out the door of Universal, and does Disney really get that significant a cut of it in the end? I haven't been in awhile to know how much is there, and I'm not in a position to know what the deals look like - but I can't imagine that it really amounts to such significant amounts when all is said and done. I could be totally wrong, but it just doesn't sound right to me.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
How do you know this laundry list of comparisons are valid beyond taking others word for it?

Or are you going to tell me that at 7 years old you noticed and cataloged all of the above for comparison 13 years later?

I'm not saying that the points aren't valid, I'm saying that you are mimicking others and these opinions aren't yours. My point has nothing to do about Disney or the current or past state of the parks. It has everything to do about your opinion not being valid when comparing the resort in the 90s because you were two years removed from potty training.

Rail away about the current state of the park, but drop the act that your opinion of WDW superiority in the 90s is your own.
It is my own opinion though. It's not my fault that others have simply come to the same conclusions based on their own experiences. My memory is a pretty darn good one at least for theme park matters (and food), but it's your choice if you refuse to believe that kids can't have a sense of quality and retain that information through their adulthood (my mom who is in her 60's also remembers very surprising amount of her early childhood).

Just remember that in your arguments, you're attempting to make claims about how their head and memory works without actually knowing anything about them or having walked in their own shoes. My list above were my own experiences and perspective, I came to them before joining here and based them on my own memories of WDW as a kid. Your argument hinges upon the doubt that I can remember something I experienced when I was a kid. A year ago I even watched some old video my mom taped of WDW when I was little, my memories of a cleaner and better kept up WDW turned out quite accurate based on the footage (I only watched the video long after visiting WDW as an adult and coming to the conclusions above).

The one thing I will readily admit is that visiting WDW well over 20-25 times as a kid probably gave me even more of a formidable memory of the place than normal.
 
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AEfx

Well-Known Member
Not saying you're wrong, but, I do have a question. What exactly is an authentic treatment of a digital image and man made script. Seems like anything they could possible do would have to be authentically an unreal animation. It kind of reminds me of a segment of Friends where the group was upset because Chandler said that he didn't cry when Bambi's mother was killed off. His reply was, Oh, yea I got real upset when the guy stopped drawing the deer.

Authentic was probably too fancy a word for what I meant - I was talking in terms of how Disney merchandising treats Star Wars characters, with Darth Mickey and Stitch Yoda. The mash-ups. Nintendo would not have dealt with that - they basically treat their characters how Disney used to - as revered, not to be messed with, not to be compromised or marginalized.

What's funny is that the day all the fanboi's cried out when Disney bought Star Wars, that now we'll have "Mickey as Vader!" proved themselves complete fools once people started posting pics of all the merchandise over the previous decade or so, long before Lucas ever sold control of the company.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
The Disney Dining Plan was really the thing that started us down the path of SubPar food. I feel its bouncing back too.

Most servers are ecstatic when they hear I'm using good old fashioned Money instead of the DDP.
If the trend of no DDP for places in the Landing section of Disney Springs continues that could be the go to place "on property". It may be overly optimistic to call it a trend based on 1 new restaurant, but I'm guessing that Morimotto and STK will not fit the model of DDP either. Not sure about anything else. Question is will they fold to pressure if they don't get enough business without DDP? Especially in the fall or former off season when free DDP is offered throughout the resort.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
To be honest, if there even was a possibility of Disney - it's stuff like that which would have turned Nintendo off. They are so protective of their characters. They don't just not give a frak like Lucas didn't, and said it was OK for Darth Vader to be doing the Batusi and Chewbacca to moon walk, LOL. With Universal, they know they will get the authentic treatment.
There was this in the Wii U version of Rayman Legends.
image.jpg

Also in Tekken.
image.jpg

And finally........ Bayonetta.
image.jpg

I'm starting to think we can't really be sure if Nintendo wouldn't like the idea of Mickey Mouse dressed as Mario but you never know.
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
It is my own opinion though. It's not my fault that others have simply come to the same conclusions based on their own experiences. My memory is a pretty darn good one at least for theme park matters (and food), but it's your choice if you refuse to believe that kids can't have a sense of quality and retain that information through their adulthood (my mom who is in her 60's also remembers very surprising amount of her early childhood).

Just remember that in your arguments, you're attempting to tell people about how their head and memory works without actually knowing anything about them or having walked in their own shoes. My list above were my own experiences and perspective, I came to them before joining here and based them on my own memories of WDW as a kid. A year ago I even watched some old video my mom taped of WDW when I was little, my memories of a cleaner and better kept up WDW turned out quite accurate based on the footage (I only watched the video long after visiting WDW as an adult and coming to the conclusions above).
You didn't, but you keep deluding yourself that you were a savant of theme park maintenance while learning how to spell your own name.

There's another guy who used to post here who claimed to have a picture perfect memory of Horizons when he was 3. You guys should start a club.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Depends on what the definition of E tickets is. We have had this discussion before and if you mean thrill ride then no doubt it has been a long long time. But is the definition of E ticket is a ride that people love that brings them an experience they want to ride over and over again in an environment they can get lost in. Then I would argue NFL is that.

It really isn't as subjective as some folks think. It's not so much about which original attractions had that designation under the ticket era (before someone points out that Tiki Room was once an E-Ticket) and has nothing whatsoever to do with thrill rides (unless you think the little dip on Pirates makes it a thrill ride).

An "E-ticket" in modern terms is a large, good-capacity, impressive attraction that makes you go "WOW!" from the moment you spot the facade, to when you enter the queue, through boarding, wows you with a lengthy ride experience, and continues the theming and immersive environment until you are walking away with it behind you. A ride that "only Disney could do", a ride that either gives an entirely new experience (Soarin') or takes an old one to the next level (Splash Mountain).

While it may sound contradictory to the point that it isn't as subjective as most folks think - you know it when you see it.

Splash Mountain
Space Mountain
Tower of Terror
The Great Movie Ride
Spaceship Earth
Everest (a broken E-ticket, but it still qualifies)

If the E-ticket thing is bothering you, substitute the word "scope". It's the same thing.

Disney has not built any single attraction with that scope in the Magic Kingdom, the flagship theme park of the flagship Disney resort, since Splash Mountain in 1992.

NFL was great. I love it. As that flagship park, it was atrocious that our Fantasyland rotted for so long and even when pristine was just a bunch of cement and tin roofs. Once I saw the charm of Disneyland's Fantasyland, I not only realized how terrible ours always was in terms of placemaking, but I was downright embarrassed that "my park" was so bad in that area. I also like the Little Mermaid - which is a solid D-ticket, in my estimation (once you get past "E" ticket, and down to C and D's, there is more of a subjective thing going).

One of the other main "attractions", based on a franchise that supposedly was the #1 most demanded for Disney to give more park presence, is so exclusive that the majority of guests aren't even allowed to cross the bridge to stand in front of it without a reservation months out. That leaves the Dwarf Train, which again, D-ticket at best - it's a kiddy coaster with one real show scene to speak of. It's nice for what it is, it's a slight step up from my beloved SWSA, even I can admit that.

This is all nice...really. But when you look at what went into that and the five year snail race to build it, and how much they then put in to tagging customers like cattle instead of building something really amazing to draw folks in, it's...very disheartening.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
There was this in the Wii U version of Rayman Legends.
Also in Tekken.
And finally........ Bayonetta.
I'm starting to think we can't really be sure if Nintendo wouldn't like the idea of Mickey Mouse dressed as Mario but you never know.

Cameos and easter eggs in video games made as sweetheart deals ("scratch my back I'll scratch yours" exclusives) is far different than store shelves filled with bastardized versions of your characters, LOL:

3924386_f520.jpg


Not to mention, you don't have to share licensing revenue, either.
 

gmajew

Premium Member
It really isn't as subjective as some folks think. It's not so much about which original attractions had that designation under the ticket era (before someone points out that Tiki Room was once an E-Ticket) and has nothing whatsoever to do with thrill rides (unless you think the little dip on Pirates makes it a thrill ride).

An "E-ticket" in modern terms is a large, good-capacity, impressive attraction that makes you go "WOW!" from the moment you spot the facade, to when you enter the queue, through boarding, wows you with a lengthy ride experience, and continues the theming and immersive environment until you are walking away with it behind you. A ride that "only Disney could do", a ride that either gives an entirely new experience (Soarin') or takes an old one to the next level (Splash Mountain).

While it may sound contradictory to the point that it isn't as subjective as most folks think - you know it when you see it.

Splash Mountain
Space Mountain
Tower of Terror
The Great Movie Ride
Spaceship Earth
Everest (a broken E-ticket, but it still qualifies)

If the E-ticket thing is bothering you, substitute the word "scope". It's the same thing.

Disney has not built any single attraction with that scope in the Magic Kingdom, the flagship theme park of the flagship Disney resort, since Splash Mountain in 1992.

NFL was great. I love it. As that flagship park, it was atrocious that our Fantasyland rotted for so long and even when pristine was just a bunch of cement and tin roofs. Once I saw the charm of Disneyland's Fantasyland, I not only realized how terrible ours always was in terms of placemaking, but I was downright embarrassed that "my park" was so bad in that area. I also like the Little Mermaid - which is a solid D-ticket, in my estimation (once you get past "E" ticket, and down to C and D's, there is more of a subjective thing going).

One of the other main "attractions", based on a franchise that supposedly was the #1 most demanded for Disney to give more park presence, is so exclusive that the majority of guests aren't even allowed to cross the bridge to stand in front of it without a reservation months out. That leaves the Dwarf Train, which again, D-ticket at best - it's a kiddy coaster with one real show scene to speak of. It's nice for what it is, it's a slight step up from my beloved SWSA, even I can admit that.

This is all nice...really. But when you look at what went into that and the five year snail race to build it, and how much they then put in to tagging customers like cattle instead of building something really amazing to draw folks in, it's...very disheartening.

We are going to just disagree you classed the great movie ride as an E ticket but not mine train?

You classed great movie ride and not even little mermaid....

Just the theming the walking in and losing your self on both of those rides make them way way more then that ride.
 

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