A Spirited Dirty Dozen ...

[WDW1974]

so @WDW74, not to swerve to conversation, but ok I will. What's your take on how the political /economic turmoil - presidential impeachment and a recession caused by shocker Government mismanagement - going on in Brazil will affect the large Brazilian tourist contingent. And with attendance already flat at WDW.......

I think WDW Co. is rightly scared by what is going on down there ... Brazil and the UK are huge drivers (behind the USA, naturally) of WDW revenue and profits. Many Brazilians may postpone or not take trips this year to begin with because they are hosting the Rio Olympiad in August. So, yeah, this absolutely deserves watching moving forward.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

It only is tiresome and repetitive because people (mostly the rah-rah we love Bob Iger's IP binges!) focus on whether one likes SW or not when that is not the issue. I like SW just fine. But I am in no way a rabid fan. I think SW has had more bad films than good. I think The Force Awakens biggest strength was that it wasn't unwatchable like the last three films, which is hardly huge praise. My argument -- and it's a good one because people who knew and worked with Walt and the WED greats that followed him almost to a man or woman HATE the placement -- is simply that SW does not belong in DL. And that it is fundamentally altering the park in a way that nothing else has in 60-plus years.



The facts we know: DL is being changed in a huge way and in a way it was not intended to. You are assuming everything else. From better flow to a better RR experience. And I certainly don't know where you get the statement on the trees. ... And the BBQ and petting zoo and arena didn't destroy Walt's park. This project ... much like Club 33's redo ... is doing that.



I just said I don't have disdain for SW. I also have only see TFA 1 3/4 times. I don't have any SW clothing. I don't own hardly any SW products. And I'll take my knowledge of DL's history and purpose combined with knowing people who helped create and nurture it over the years over fans on a discussion forum that just like what they like and don't care about history, theme or purpose. We might as well force UNI to give up Marvel rights and move the Hulk coaster from IOA to EPCOT!



That's incorrect. Of course there are. ... But, yes, the debate is sorta meaningless because Bob Iger made the call and we all have to now live with his legacy. ... As to how they are executing it, you can't possibly comment because you don't know. You may hope they execute it very, very well (I hope and believe that they will). But we are a good 2.5 years (at best) away from a debut in Anaheim (and closer to 4-5 years in FL), so there is no way we can make that call yet.

You should be in charge of all SWL at DL arguments for the entire wdwmagic forums. I think it's great you mentioned how those who knew Walt and/or the WED greats feel about it. No better insight should be required. For me personally, this is where Iger transitioned from a mediocre to bad CEO to a downright irredeemable one. He's basically Eisner near the tail end of his reign, but even more destructive to the Disney name.

 

[ProfSavage]

You should go back to hiding under the rock near your trailer in the desert, Frank. Your tired antics wore out so many years ago why you persist shows a very unhealthy pathology best diagnosed by a mental healthcare professional.

 

[ThemeParkJunkee]

I agree with @WDW1974 that I am getting too old for "just wait". I do not want to visit promises anymore. The park formerly known as Disney MGM Studios inspired my daughter to become an artist, illustrator and animator. The park that Epcot was, inspired my children to look beyond the existing and embrace the possible. I was older when I had them and will collect retirement payments in a week.

I worry that I may never see the promised WDW of the future.

 

[Californian Elitist]

It only is tiresome and repetitive because people (mostly the rah-rah we love Bob Iger's IP binges!) focus on whether one likes SW or not when that is not the issue. I like SW just fine. But I am in no way a rabid fan. I think SW has had more bad films than good. I think The Force Awakens biggest strength was that it wasn't unwatchable like the last three films, which is hardly huge praise. My argument -- and it's a good one because people who knew and worked with Walt and the WED greats that followed him almost to a man or woman HATE the placement -- is simply that SW does not belong in DL. And that it is fundamentally altering the park in a way that nothing else has in 60-plus years.



The facts we know: DL is being changed in a huge way and in a way it was not intended to. You are assuming everything else. From better flow to a better RR experience. And I certainly don't know where you get the statement on the trees. ... And the BBQ and petting zoo and arena didn't destroy Walt's park. This project ... much like Club 33's redo ... is doing that.



I just said I don't have disdain for SW. I also have only see TFA 1 3/4 times. I don't have any SW clothing. I don't own hardly any SW products. And I'll take my knowledge of DL's history and purpose combined with knowing people who helped create and nurture it over the years over fans on a discussion forum that just like what they like and don't care about history, theme or purpose. We might as well force UNI to give up Marvel rights and move the Hulk coaster from IOA to EPCOT!



That's incorrect. Of course there are. ... But, yes, the debate is sorta meaningless because Bob Iger made the call and we all have to now live with his legacy. ... As to how they are executing it, you can't possibly comment because you don't know. You may hope they execute it very, very well (I hope and believe that they will). But we are a good 2.5 years (at best) away from a debut in Anaheim (and closer to 4-5 years in FL), so there is no way we can make that call yet.

*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*

Well done, sir.

 

[Longhairbear]

I dunno. I think it could work, but it won't. People are afraid of ... how has it been put to me? ... Oh yes, being fired as Guests. That's how companies deal with people today with legit complaints who won't simply go away.

You need someone with a great eye for detail, like a @WDWFigment or even Andy Castro over on Micechat, to document the issues. But I don't see them doing so. Tom has a thriving little empire and he starts showing the ugly side of Disney it will come crashing down quickly. And Andy seems so angry and burnt out (I truly feel bad for the kid as I admire his passion.) I think within a year he'll be gone from that site and another kid who doesn't care so much about how things should be will take over. A kid that TDA likes better.

Also, both of the above examples are people who live in SoCal. I honestly don't have a clue who in O-Town has the time or talent to do that ... they're too busy looking for freebies at cupcake parties. You think Brigante is going to do it ... how about Mongello? WDW has never been better!

I remember the old Usenet Disney groups. Al always posted pics of the bad stuff, and mentioned them constantly. Micechat really should take that stance again.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

I got the dates from his LinkedIn profile. Didn't look deeper than that.

But looking deeper. Looks like he replaced Bill Sullivan at MK announced Feb 2004, and prior to that he was Epcot VP. Linda Warren was Epcot VP before George K.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1994-02-05/business/9402050662_1_walt-disney-epcot-senior-vice

Edit: Looking at the list of Epcot VPs in the last decade, no wonder that park has no identity, people come and and go faster than the construction time for an attraction!

Unrelated, but this was a suggested story from the one you posted and I found it to be a fascinating snapshot from an unfortunately bygone era: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1986-06-22/news/8606270209_1_walt-disney-disneyland-disney-theme

Frank Wells and Dick Nunis were still around... I bet it was such a different atmosphere back then. The article was published three days short of a year before I was born.

Of particular interest in today's age:

"Even the newest attraction at the park, a live animal petting farm called Big Thunder Ranch, is temporary, Nunis said. It, too, will eventually be replaced by a glitzy themed area."

It only took 30 years, but the man did not lie!

 

[TP2000]

so @WDW74, not to swerve to conversation, but ok I will. What's your take on how the political /economic turmoil - presidential impeachment and a recession caused by shocker Government mismanagement - going on in Brazil will affect the large Brazilian tourist contingent. And with attendance already flat at WDW.......

Attendance is not flat at WDW, it's declining. Or in the phrasing that Disney itself used in its official financial report, WDW is experiencing a "modest decrease" in attendance. Brazil's economic and political implosion will only make the decrease worse in the months ahead.

Overall attendance for the entire Parks division is flat only because attendance and spending have increased at Disneyland Resort.

 

[TP2000]

It comes down to no one else wanting it. OLC wasn't interested, which rules out TDR. With Lucasfilm and Marvel onboard, no one at the other resorts sees a compelling need to clone Avatar. That may change down the road if the next 18 Avatar movies Cameron makes are so amazing and successful that no one can help themselves, but barring that, DAK will likely remain the sole home of the blue cat people.

Good to know. And a good reminder that Disney did publicly state that Avatar would be coming to additional parks after WDW. But now that appears to be dead.

It still won't stop me from conducting my annual Avatar Halloween Costume survey, wherein absolutely no one ever shows up at my door dressed as anything from Avatar.

 

[TP2000]

I really liked The Muppets...

I like The Muppet Show too. In 1977, when it was good.

 

[BrianLo]

C'mon, Brian. You really want to compare SDL to TDS?!?!

You know it isn't a fair comparison to begin with as one park was a second gate. How about comparing SDL to TDL at opening?

And your categorizing attractions above is ... subjective at best. 20K is widely considered E caliber, while Sindbad may or may not be (I love it, but not the point). Raging Spirits also didn't open with the park. It was added later.

As to SDL ... Crystal Grotto is a C at best. It is a different (cheaper?) take on Storybook Land. But Soarin is considered an E in Anaheim and O-Town, so it should be there as well. The SDMT might qualify as a D, but Pan and Buzz are firmly C-Tix even in their plussed states. Things like the Canoes and Alice Maze would be in the B/C area. The Marvel and SW 'attractions' are only in name only. At the D23 Expo I spoke with multiple Imagineers on the project, the Americans talked them up like they were special (I knew they weren't, but I like toying with people) while the Chinese Imagineers were blunt saying things like "We don't have a Marvel attraction. Hong Kong will be getting one. Ours is an introduction and retail."

Again, I think SDL will be nice (at least until the locals trash it), but one must keep expectations in reality based terms.

The park needs significantly more attractions, which is why a Phase II is being planned as I type this.

I agree. And yes, I compared it because you previously commented that it offered way less than TDS.

My point really wasn't to get into a debate about the nitty gritty of 'what is what' in terms of ticketing. I actually WAS trying to be objective believe it or not. I like using the purpose the attraction serves (yes I much prefer 20k to Storm Rider) but 20k serves as a supporting act dark ride in its land. If I was being subjective I'd call it an E since I too agree it is amazing. It doesn't really matter, I was just listing attractions and frankly was quite generous to TDS (even gave them a bonus attraction for Raging Spirits - whoops!).

BUT - I think we both agree the park needs and is thankfully getting more. It's not worth either our time going back and forth about which is slightly better.

I'll be sure to give you my opinions either way in due course. I'm admittedly now uninformed as I'm avoiding all the videos now circulating. Your opinion on Voyage to the Crystal Grotto though... Wasn't that supposed to be the headliner?

 

[BrianLo]

The facts we know: DL is being changed in a huge way and in a way it was not intended to. You are assuming everything else. From better flow to a better RR experience. And I certainly don't know where you get the statement on the trees. ... And the BBQ and petting zoo and arena didn't destroy Walt's park. This project ... much like Club 33's redo ... is doing that.

As to how they are executing it, you can't possibly comment because you don't know.

I guess that goes both ways though, can either of us comment on it? It's all one big assumption. That's part of the fun of the back and forth debate here

The arena and the petting zoo took over an area formerly occupied by a Walt-era E-ticket. The way we are throwing around the word destroy these days, I'd say that's up there. If we really want to talk about something mucking up the ROA - it was Fantasmic. Yet, when the end result is good, suddenly it fits neatly into what Walt would want. I have nothing against either and love Fantasmic, by the way.

The arena and BBQ/zoo are the only actual things that were guest accessible areas that are going away. Otherwise a ride is being shortened (~13%), another re-routed, Fantasmic is getting proper dedicated storage. That's it - well unless you are a lover of backstage areas.

Although yes, I can certainly comment on the trees and everything else I mentioned. It's all publicly available info at this point anyways.

I don't want to be obnoxious about it, but there are a few things I've staunchly 'assumed'. Even recently against the insider grain that have been on point. This is one of those times I'm being staunch. I don't mean to be a contrarian all the time, but I just like to jump in when I have something different to add to a conversation. If I don't, I'd rather not clutter things up with more of the same.

 

[TeriofTerror]

And she's been so successful, right? Just parade your dragons around, and make pronouncements and everyone will bend to your rule. Turns out, you can't just come in, announce change and change happens. Not when there is a system hell bent on maintaining the status quo, and anyone who challenges the leader is quickly dispatched. This is what naive Disney fans expect, that somewhere there is a savior who has been living in exile, who is suddenly going to be elevated into a position of power where good things will just descend from the heavens. You need a treasury, you need an army devoted to the cause, but that matters not without effective leadership. So unless one of the Seven Dwarfs is secretly a Lannister who has been underestimated and marginalized his entire life...

The Prince Charming that was promised?

 

[tirian]

Disney of the 80s and 90s would have taken your free advice and made the Studios' transformation an event in itself.

Disney of 2016 will probably sell quarter-size pieces of the Streets of America for $79/each.

No problem. I read everything on my threads ... at least for the first hundred pages and then ... not so much unless great conversation is being had. I respond where I feel appropriate.



I'm just reporting what my sources tell me. And on Shanghai they have been damn near 100% perfect. So sure, they could be off here ... or maybe Disney was just able to kick things into gear. Not sure. I haven't gotten notes from anyone (and they read me almost as religiously as the fanboi Twits) that something I've posted is off or that things have changed. But when you jump on me and do so in what came off quite accusatory ... well, let's just say I've had years of experience with people taking potshots at me. Legit criticism I absolutely can handle.



I absolutely agree with the above. When I look at WDW's current state I blame Iger, Chapek and Kalogridis (in that order) because they are tasked with the responsibility of running the operation. I could blame some of the people who have come before ... from Al Weiss to Lee Cockerell to Paul Pressler to Michael Eisner to Jay Rasulo to Tom Staggs to plenty of folks I am leaving out, but the bottom line in May of 2016 falls to the current leadership.

With the current level of profits, Disney could do great things even while parks like TPFKaTD-MGMS is a mess. Let's give some free consulting (something I hate doing, but they won't steal this one so who cares?) now. Instead of offering $69 cupcake parties for Star Wars pyro viewing, imagine the good will Disney could engender if every day there was a Star Wars Surprise at the Studios as this giant mess takes place in the cesspool (don't tell crazy Tom Amity) that once was a great park. Imagine if every day something different and special were offered FOR FREE as part of the park's transformation? One day you show up and find out that Luke Skywalker himself is there and the first 1,000 people in get free autographs and admission to a chat with him that is broadcast throughout the park. Another day, everyone who shows up is given a pin (not a cheap one ... but a pin they'd sell for $6.99 or $8.99) SW related. Another day, everyone who walks through gets a coupon good for a free Yoda cupcake. Another day, guests randomly win SW prizes (everything from plush to art). etc etc.

You think that good will might mean something? Disney is so greedy and arrogant, though.

But back to your point as it is a good one: today's problems shouldn't be blamed on Shanghai or NGE, but on the execs who are in charge of those expenditures.



I can't speak to that. Others were talking about the location of various parts of SWL, which -- to be fair to them -- were in flux often over the last three years. But I NEVER said SWL is going in (fill in the blank) area. So please don't blame me for that.



What things don't line up? I'd like to know what I have said in this thread (or others) recently that was or is incorrect.



I have no trouble moving on. But you haven't been clear on what your doubts are. What you think I have gotten so wrong. If we're disagreeing on something, then I'd like to at least know what that is.

 

[Mike S]

It only is tiresome and repetitive because people (mostly the rah-rah we love Bob Iger's IP binges!) focus on whether one likes SW or not when that is not the issue. I like SW just fine. But I am in no way a rabid fan. I think SW has had more bad films than good. I think The Force Awakens biggest strength was that it wasn't unwatchable like the last three films, which is hardly huge praise. My argument -- and it's a good one because people who knew and worked with Walt and the WED greats that followed him almost to a man or woman HATE the placement -- is simply that SW does not belong in DL. And that it is fundamentally altering the park in a way that nothing else has in 60-plus years.



The facts we know: DL is being changed in a huge way and in a way it was not intended to. You are assuming everything else. From better flow to a better RR experience. And I certainly don't know where you get the statement on the trees. ... And the BBQ and petting zoo and arena didn't destroy Walt's park. This project ... much like Club 33's redo ... is doing that.



I just said I don't have disdain for SW. I also have only see TFA 1 3/4 times. I don't have any SW clothing. I don't own hardly any SW products. And I'll take my knowledge of DL's history and purpose combined with knowing people who helped create and nurture it over the years over fans on a discussion forum that just like what they like and don't care about history, theme or purpose. We might as well force UNI to give up Marvel rights and move the Hulk coaster from IOA to EPCOT!



That's incorrect. Of course there are. ... But, yes, the debate is sorta meaningless because Bob Iger made the call and we all have to now live with his legacy. ... As to how they are executing it, you can't possibly comment because you don't know. You may hope they execute it very, very well (I hope and believe that they will). But we are a good 2.5 years (at best) away from a debut in Anaheim (and closer to 4-5 years in FL), so there is no way we can make that call yet.

4-5 years for DHS SWL?!?!?! I thought the recent rumors said it was 6 months to a year behind DL!!!!!!!

You know what I want for the 50th Anniversary? Them to first acknowledge and do something for the 45th!!!

I am too old to keep hearing 'Wait, things will get better by 2003. Oops, we had terrorists, so better make that 2007. But the head of the company decided he wanted to look into selling part or all of P&R, so can't invest wait ... OK ... going to invest ... Oops, global financial meltdown, who cares that WDW set records in 2008 and construction labor and materials were at an all-time low ... nope, can't do anything. But wait ... we're building a kinda, sorta, not really much at all New Fantasyland ... but you need to wait until 2013 for it to be done and ignore the other 2/3rds of the land still stuck in the 70s. ... Oops, we lost Potter rights because Iger can't handle big egos that aren't his, so he'll show UNI ... he has Avatar rights ... top motion picture of all time coming to DAK ... six years later. ... And so it goes ..."

I'm tired of waiting. Disney hasn't wowed me in FL since they opened DAK. That was 18 years ago. Ask anyone who just turned 18 and they'll call it a lifetime ... time's more than up!

Lol, you got me there

 

[wdrive]

Because they are generally very expensive and unnecessary. It's usually a vanity issue and this is 2016 - photographs can be taken by just one person locally and sent over the Internet, for crying out loud.

I'm sorry, I know folks disagree with me, but with Everest, for example - if you had given me $100K and a tractor trailer truck to haul the crap, I could have spent a few weeks going to flea markets right here in the US and gotten stuff to junk up the queue with and it would have been just as "authentic" to 99.5% of guests.

Trekking around the world in that case was simply wasting all that money - which ended up costing us interior theming on the actual ride, leaving us with the lovely skrims - and oh yeah, a poorly designed Yeti.

There's a 1400s (or maybe 1600s?) Portuguese antique table in the Tower of Terror lobby. And it's nowhere near any guests, is tucked away in the top left hand corner where 90% of guests won't even look and the ones that do will give little more than a passing glance. I'm sure WDI could have made an old looking table for a fraction of the cost.

 

[marni1971]

I thought the recent rumors said it was 6 months to a year behind DL!!!!!!!

There's rumour and there's guessing.

I'd still bet on late 19 maybe into 20 for WDW.

 

[wdisney9000]

Just had to drop this link because THIS is what WDW has become all about: cupcakes ... a cheap, high-calorie, kiddie dessert that obese lifestylers live for.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/trav...inkles-perks-free-cupcake-20160510-story.html

Cupcakes are basically Disneys version of duct tape....they think it can fix anything. At what point will the company reevaluate their collective group of decision makers who fail to yield any solutions for new or exciting promotions that are not centered around cupcakes?

 

[gmajew]

My answer to your entire post: no.

I am going to disagree with you on that. A company culture can change in less then 6 months if right leadership is in place. The maint issues the cleanliness can be fixed in the parks if the budget is given and the leadership wants it. Even a good manager can take pride and make major changes in cleanliness immediately with no budget.

The issue is will leadership make it happen? I don't think so but new blood may have a different set of goals and make it happen. I know when I take over a business the first thing I do is change the culture of the business to what I want it to be and then go in and fix the brand. It takes time and money but it can be done. Have done it for companies with 3000 units down to 10 unit chains.

I see moments lately of them doing the right thing even if it is forced by the state of the neglect from past they are doing things. We heard rave reviews on the pirate refurb the work on Main Street building to name a few. So it can be done just not consistently yet.

 

[wdisney9000]

Im sure its been discussed but has the company announced any plans to prevent the Shanghai park from being trashed and literally deficated on by guests aain after they officially open? Or were they somewhat aware of the culture and prepared to continually clean up after them? The picture where someone carved graffiti (or whatever you wanna call it) into a light pole is puzzling. It must have taken at least a minute or two. Did a CM or a guest (that cares) not see them doing it?