A Spirited Dirty Dozen ...

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I got the dates from his LinkedIn profile. Didn't look deeper than that.

But looking deeper. Looks like he replaced Bill Sullivan at MK announced Feb 2004, and prior to that he was Epcot VP. Linda Warren was Epcot VP before George K.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1994-02-05/business/9402050662_1_walt-disney-epcot-senior-vice

Edit: Looking at the list of Epcot VPs in the last decade, no wonder that park has no identity, people come and and go faster than the construction time for an attraction!

I totally forgot about Linda as she was in the job for such a short period, thanks!

What I found so interesting about that story, beyond recalling reading it 22 years ago in print form!, was that so many great execs were retiring (i.e. being forced out) right in the mid-90s, right before WDW began a slow and steady fall into the abyss.

Those execs knew what the Disney Difference really was. What show meant. What exceeding guests expectations was all about.

They were most definitely not the folks who have been there since ...

There is a reason why Georgie K got to come back and be the Head Queen of the Kingdom. He sold his soul. Otherwise, he would have been out of the company a good 15 years now.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
I totally forgot about Linda as she was in the job for such a short period, thanks!

What I found so interesting about that story, beyond recalling reading it 22 years ago in print form!, was that so many great execs were retiring (i.e. being forced out) right in the mid-90s, right before WDW began a slow and steady fall into the abyss.

Those execs knew what the Disney Difference really was. What show meant. What exceeding guests expectations was all about.

They were most definitely not the folks who have been there since ...

There is a reason why Georgie K got to come back and be the Head Queen of the Kingdom. He sold his soul. Otherwise, he would have been out of the company a good 15 years now.

While poking around at other former park execs, I found another article that was also interesting reading, knowing what has come since. This is about Norm Doerges retirement in 1997

http://articles.latimes.com/1997-04-15/business/fi-48750_1_walt-disney-imagineering

Interesting bit...

Once considered a candidate for the top job at Disneyland, Doerges was passed over for the presidency in 1994 in favor of Paul Pressler, a youthful outsider and marketing whiz who made a name for himself at the Disney Stores. Insiders and observers say Doerges' departure underscores the move away from home-grown management at Disneyland, where executives once cut their teeth on the park's nuts and bolts and were schooled in the exacting "Walt way" of doing things.

"The route to the top used to go through the parks," said David Tsoneff, a Laguna Hills consultant and former senior vice president at Walt Disney Imagineering. "That's no longer the case."
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I would just like to make one small
Comment on this:
I have two smallish children. (And I own a small travel company that does a lot of Disney- full disclosure) Most of my families with older children are adding time at Universal or spending entire trips there. However, families with small children (mine included) don't find that they can fill multiple days at Universal. So, while the parks might be cleaner and the hotels might be nicer (i.e. cabana bay) many families are still choosing Disney over Universal because the Disney parks (perceived or not) are seen as more small child friendly.
In addition, it is cost prohibitive for families to add one or two days at Universal when they are thinking adding one more day at Disney only costs $11 (i.e. Going from a five day to a six day ticket)
And the families that are making these trips are not coming back and discussing the trash at the parks with me (i am sure it's true, it's just not something I hear feedback on).
I got sidetracked- but bottom line I think that Universal has some work to do for families with young children. People do not see the value in a park where kids can ride a minority of rides. Therefore Disney will continue to "win" those families for the foreseeable future.

That's a fair and excellent point ... if you have young (like 8 and younger) kids. UNI absolutely has far fewer kid-friendly and family-friendly rides and attractions. Indeed, I spent about 20 minutes in their soon to be replaced KidZone and was shocked by how 1990s Discovery Zone (remember those?) and cheap theme park the area felt ... with fountains to get soaked and a ball play area and the Woody Woodpecker coaster (that I rode for the first time ever). I was told by a friend who works there that the Barney show has the best production quality of any show there. I took her word for it and didn't see the show!
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Yup. Other properties will be coming. But I didn't specify which ones because I am not 100% sure.

And I was serious about Olaf. Can't wait to see him in the new production.

Gotcha. Thanks

Oh! Lol I totally thought you were being sarcastic. I wasn't a huge fan of The Aladdin show and the lip syncing. Hopefully the Frozen musical has live singing.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Well... how to begin? First of all, thank you for reading and replying. I said I didn't mean to pick a fight, but of course that's how it erupted. One of my big flaws is that each of my posts is the length of an essay, so I appologize in advance.

No problem. I read everything on my threads ... at least for the first hundred pages and then ... not so much unless great conversation is being had. I respond where I feel appropriate.

No, I'm no expert on painting themed facilities. Look, to me it seems that more than 50% of the paint is ready. Maybe not. But everything looks good, no worse than the other parks, that's for sure. If you meant that some things got one or two coats instead of three, well then, I hope they keep touching it all up with new paint. And I also could not even begin to put this on the same level as HKDL opening day (or even present day). But whatever, we disagree. You are correct that most of this topic is nothing but opinion, so it's not worth arguing over.

I'm just reporting what my sources tell me. And on Shanghai they have been damn near 100% perfect. So sure, they could be off here ... or maybe Disney was just able to kick things into gear. Not sure. I haven't gotten notes from anyone (and they read me almost as religiously as the fanboi Twits) that something I've posted is off or that things have changed. But when you jump on me and do so in what came off quite accusatory ... well, let's just say I've had years of experience with people taking potshots at me. Legit criticism I absolutely can handle.

I'm moreso sick and tired of #thanksshanghai and "oh, the cuts are because of blank." It's giving an excuse to something that doesn't deserve any justification. Did Disneyland become crap in the late 60s because WDW was being built? No. Did MK become crap when Disney spent 90% of their theme park profits on Epcot? No. But today, when the company has billions of dollars in the bank, their capex % of whatever (have no idea of the actual number, maybe @ParentsOf4 knows, but less than the majority of their history) is enough to suddenly warrant cuts? Why the excuse now? Thank you for at least partially agreeing with me there, but everyone else is still putting blame on project or situtation X rather than on the execs making the decisions.

I absolutely agree with the above. When I look at WDW's current state I blame Iger, Chapek and Kalogridis (in that order) because they are tasked with the responsibility of running the operation. I could blame some of the people who have come before ... from Al Weiss to Lee Cockerell to Paul Pressler to Michael Eisner to Jay Rasulo to Tom Staggs to plenty of folks I am leaving out, but the bottom line in May of 2016 falls to the current leadership.

With the current level of profits, Disney could do great things even while parks like TPFKaTD-MGMS is a mess. Let's give some free consulting (something I hate doing, but they won't steal this one so who cares?) now. Instead of offering $69 cupcake parties for Star Wars pyro viewing, imagine the good will Disney could engender if every day there was a Star Wars Surprise at the Studios as this giant mess takes place in the cesspool (don't tell crazy Tom Amity) that once was a great park. Imagine if every day something different and special were offered FOR FREE as part of the park's transformation? One day you show up and find out that Luke Skywalker himself is there and the first 1,000 people in get free autographs and admission to a chat with him that is broadcast throughout the park. Another day, everyone who shows up is given a pin (not a cheap one ... but a pin they'd sell for $6.99 or $8.99) SW related. Another day, everyone who walks through gets a coupon good for a free Yoda cupcake. Another day, guests randomly win SW prizes (everything from plush to art). etc etc.

You think that good will might mean something? Disney is so greedy and arrogant, though.

But back to your point as it is a good one: today's problems shouldn't be blamed on Shanghai or NGE, but on the execs who are in charge of those expenditures.

I'm no fanboi, and I'm actually defending Disney less than everyone else!

I've also lost a bit of trust, in general, after the recent Star Wars Land shock. Bob Iger announced that SWL construction would begin in April, and a whole list of things in the back of the park was closed or had been scheduled to close in April for months. The evidence was clear, yet people still insisted that SWL was going in the stunt show area, only because their sources told them so. I was on that sinking ship for a while and only hopped off a bit before most people, so I'm not giving myself credit. I'm just saying that, while this kind of blindness isn't really your fault, in retrospect it's certainly made me say "hmmm" more often.

I can't speak to that. Others were talking about the location of various parts of SWL, which -- to be fair to them -- were in flux often over the last three years. But I NEVER said SWL is going in (fill in the blank) area. So please don't blame me for that.

I'm just trying to use my head. My head obviously has no inside information of any sort, but certain things don't line up, and that's something I can recognize. Maybe you're right. Maybe in 10 years I'll be like "oh huh, he was on the spot, it all makes sense." And I'd love for that to be the case, I really would. I wouldn't mind being completely wrong, to know that your information and everything you said all lines up, and that our most outspoken member is still on course. I don't hate you at all, it's the opposite. The insults... they sting in that good kind of way.

What things don't line up? I'd like to know what I have said in this thread (or others) recently that was or is incorrect.

I just, well, have my doubts. Doubts which I think are pretty valid. Hopefully you understand. And if you don't, lets at least move on from here.

I have no trouble moving on. But you haven't been clear on what your doubts are. What you think I have gotten so wrong. If we're disagreeing on something, then I'd like to at least know what that is.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Yes crowds will certainly come and that will be its biggest problem. Everything else mostly comes down to whether or not people like Star Wars. The discussion is becoming very tiresome and repetitive.

It only is tiresome and repetitive because people (mostly the rah-rah we love Bob Iger's IP binges!) focus on whether one likes SW or not when that is not the issue. I like SW just fine. But I am in no way a rabid fan. I think SW has had more bad films than good. I think The Force Awakens biggest strength was that it wasn't unwatchable like the last three films, which is hardly huge praise. My argument -- and it's a good one because people who knew and worked with Walt and the WED greats that followed him almost to a man or woman HATE the placement -- is simply that SW does not belong in DL. And that it is fundamentally altering the park in a way that nothing else has in 60-plus years.

The facts we do know: The river is decreasing approximately 13%, most of it is actually going to a Fantasmic storage. Guest flow corridors will be better. The Northern rail journey will certainly be more interesting. Most historical and aesthetically pleasing trees have been saved. There will be a massive net gain of trees in fact. All at the behest of an 80s era petting zoo and BBQ (which really was the true destroyer of Walt's park via Journey through Natures Wonderland).

The facts we know: DL is being changed in a huge way and in a way it was not intended to. You are assuming everything else. From better flow to a better RR experience. And I certainly don't know where you get the statement on the trees. ... And the BBQ and petting zoo and arena didn't destroy Walt's park. This project ... much like Club 33's redo ... is doing that.

But people will continue crying into their Mickey plush that Walt's park is ruined mostly predicated on their disdain of Star Wars and that it doesn't fit whatever imagined vision they have of what Disneyland is and should be.

I just said I don't have disdain for SW. I also have only see TFA 1 3/4 times. I don't have any SW clothing. I don't own hardly any SW products. And I'll take my knowledge of DL's history and purpose combined with knowing people who helped create and nurture it over the years over fans on a discussion forum that just like what they like and don't care about history, theme or purpose. We might as well force UNI to give up Marvel rights and move the Hulk coaster from IOA to EPCOT!

There are really no legitimate points either way for or against Star Wars when you come down to it. It's a dead conversation, people have taken their staunch stances and now we will slowly and painfully deal with the aftermath... Because it's happening. Might as well hope for good execution instead of endlessly pouting.

And that's the dirty secret: they are executing it very, very well.

That's incorrect. Of course there are. ... But, yes, the debate is sorta meaningless because Bob Iger made the call and we all have to now live with his legacy. ... As to how they are executing it, you can't possibly comment because you don't know. You may hope they execute it very, very well (I hope and believe that they will). But we are a good 2.5 years (at best) away from a debut in Anaheim (and closer to 4-5 years in FL), so there is no way we can make that call yet.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Thanks but I do not need your false sympathy. You made a comment trying to make fun of my age (late 40s by the way, married for 24 years with a kid in College and another finishing up her junior year in High School). In making the comment, you inadvertently dumped on my recently passed mother. I do try and make light of many comments on here for the simple fact that there are a lot of posters who take this WAY TOO SERIOUSLY. I appreciate what Steve has put together here at "Magic" but I think it is time I pulled back and left the site. My mother sacrificed much for me to get through college, becoming the first in my family to earn a college degree. If Serpico has something to say, I may drop it somewhere.

No need to leave..... Your humor is appreciated.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I'm not sure why you are being so cynical and hard on it. I'm not going to sit here and tell everyone it's flawless (it lacks transport and could use a few more C-tickets). The expansion plans are going to be sorely needed with the crowds they are anticipating. I'm excited they are being so aggressive between Everest, Marvel and Alice!

BUT, the SDL opening menu is pretty comparable to a certain park way more than you let on (see below)
TDS

E’s
JTTCOTE
Sindbad
Indy
Storm Rider

D’s
20k Leagues
Raging Spirits

C’s
Aquatopia
Flounder’s Flying Fish Coaster

B’s
Scuttle’s Scooters
Jumpin’ Jelly Fish
Blowfish Balloon Race
The Whirlpool
Carousel

Transport
Disney Sea Electric Railway
Venice Canal Boats
Steamer Line
Big City Vehicles

Other
Fortress Exploration

Shows
Mystic Rhythms
Aladdin
Big Band Beats
Under the Sea

Parades/Outdoor Shows
Porto Paradiso Water Carnival



SDL

E’s
Pirates
Voyage of the Crystal Grotto
TRoN
Roaring Rapids

D’s
SDMT
Soaring
Buzz Astro Blasters
Peter Pan’s Flight

C’s
Winnie the Pooh Adventure

B’s
Hunny Pot Spin
Jet Packs
Dumbo
Fantasia Carousel

Transport
Explorer Canoes

Other
Once Upon a Time Adventure
Alice Maze
Camp Discovery Challenge Trail
Star Wars Launch Bay
Marvel HQ

Shows
Tarzan, Call of the Jungle
Pirates
Frozen
Stitch Encounter

Parades/Outdoor Shows
Storybook Castle Daytime stage show
Mickey’s Storybook Express
Ignite the Dream


TDS only had about 6 semi-major or major opening day (dark ride) attractions. SDL has about 8 (I even purposely left out the Pooh clone!)

C'mon, Brian. You really want to compare SDL to TDS?!?!

You know it isn't a fair comparison to begin with as one park was a second gate. How about comparing SDL to TDL at opening?

And your categorizing attractions above is ... subjective at best. 20K is widely considered E caliber, while Sindbad may or may not be (I love it, but not the point). Raging Spirits also didn't open with the park. It was added later.

As to SDL ... Crystal Grotto is a C at best. It is a different (cheaper?) take on Storybook Land. But Soarin is considered an E in Anaheim and O-Town, so it should be there as well. The SDMT might qualify as a D, but Pan and Buzz are firmly C-Tix even in their plussed states. Things like the Canoes and Alice Maze would be in the B/C area. The Marvel and SW 'attractions' are only in name only. At the D23 Expo I spoke with multiple Imagineers on the project, the Americans talked them up like they were special (I knew they weren't, but I like toying with people) while the Chinese Imagineers were blunt saying things like "We don't have a Marvel attraction. Hong Kong will be getting one. Ours is an introduction and retail."

Again, I think SDL will be nice (at least until the locals trash it), but one must keep expectations in reality based terms.

The park needs significantly more attractions, which is why a Phase II is being planned as I type this.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
They were designing DAK 2.0 and implementing it. Now they have designed DHS 2.0 and are implementing it. In the past couple days we have seen blueprints of all the new necessary infrastructure that had to be approved by state officials. And many photos of cleared areas where the BLT was. There was never any intention to open SWL at WDW before DL. Doesn't matter why that may be as long as it is happening. And clearly it is when some said it may never happen. They should be apologizing to you for deceiving you.

You should go back to hiding under the rock near your trailer in the desert, Frank. Your tired antics wore out so many years ago why you persist shows a very unhealthy pathology best diagnosed by a mental healthcare professional.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It definitely was when I was there two weeks ago. I think it might depend on your placement of the train, in regards to your ability to hear it or not. It seems the cars in the front are the only ones, because it's done by the third cart or so.

That might 'splain it. My three rides were twice in last row (10) and once in row seven. Never heard her at all.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Regarding WDW cleanliness issues, I know occasionally people try to start a website or movement for people to take photos of problem areas and post them, but they never seem to gain much traction.

Maybe a twitter hashtag would be better, and we could spread the word to post pics of areas that need to be fixed and show others what problems they need to address

I dunno. I think it could work, but it won't. People are afraid of ... how has it been put to me? ... Oh yes, being fired as Guests. That's how companies deal with people today with legit complaints who won't simply go away.

You need someone with a great eye for detail, like a @WDWFigment or even Andy Castro over on Micechat, to document the issues. But I don't see them doing so. Tom has a thriving little empire and he starts showing the ugly side of Disney it will come crashing down quickly. And Andy seems so angry and burnt out (I truly feel bad for the kid as I admire his passion.) I think within a year he'll be gone from that site and another kid who doesn't care so much about how things should be will take over. A kid that TDA likes better.

Also, both of the above examples are people who live in SoCal. I honestly don't have a clue who in O-Town has the time or talent to do that ... they're too busy looking for freebies at cupcake parties. You think Brigante is going to do it ... how about Mongello? WDW has never been better!
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Any updates on the shows exclusive to the park like Tarzan and the Jack Sparrow stunt show? The latter was absent during the test run last weekend.

I know very little about the Tarzan show beyond the acrobats are supposed to be quite good. The stunt show was described to me as a true E-Ticket experience that will have effects and danger that would never be allowed in the USA ... but this was a good two years ago, so I have no idea how the thing ended. But I am looking forward to both.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
@WDW1974 A small tidbit to nibble on that it seems everyone skimmed over... You said Marvel is going on the plot of where Avatar would have been, overseas.

Were they getting a clone of what's being built in DAK or was it supposed to be something entirely new?

Is DLP and DLR getting the same Marvel ..."experiences"??

I believe it was largely planned as a clone, although it never went far.

Not likely on the same Marvel experiences. At least when last I heard.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The stories in this thread have made me realize something. People keep talking about the 50th anniversary and what they want Disney to do for it. New E Tickets, new parades, new fireworks, etc. You know what I want for it? Resort wide renovations on the level DLP is getting for its 25th anniversary. I'd like to see the place shine like it hasn't for a long time. We have a little over 5 years before it hits so that should be more than enough time for them to do it all and of course this would affect guests but it would all be worth it in the long run. Sadly I doubt this would happen. Prepare yourselves for the 50th cupcake party for the amazing value of $149.99 per head.

You know what I want for the 50th Anniversary? Them to first acknowledge and do something for the 45th!!!

I am too old to keep hearing 'Wait, things will get better by 2003. Oops, we had terrorists, so better make that 2007. But the head of the company decided he wanted to look into selling part or all of P&R, so can't invest wait ... OK ... going to invest ... Oops, global financial meltdown, who cares that WDW set records in 2008 and construction labor and materials were at an all-time low ... nope, can't do anything. But wait ... we're building a kinda, sorta, not really much at all New Fantasyland ... but you need to wait until 2013 for it to be done and ignore the other 2/3rds of the land still stuck in the 70s. ... Oops, we lost Potter rights because Iger can't handle big egos that aren't his, so he'll show UNI ... he has Avatar rights ... top motion picture of all time coming to DAK ... six years later. ... And so it goes ..."

I'm tired of waiting. Disney hasn't wowed me in FL since they opened DAK. That was 18 years ago. Ask anyone who just turned 18 and they'll call it a lifetime ... time's more than up!
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Come on now, you can't just throw that out (twice) and not give at least a little more of a hint of what you're referring to.

Actually, I can. Sometimes I am willing to put it all out there ... other times ... well, I've been hinting at Golden Oak and how 'odd' some of its home 'owners' are since at least 2013 when I toured the place. The information IS out there. No, it isn't easy to find. But it also isn't particularly difficult ... and the O-Sentinel should have written about this years ago (but never will, rest assured).

So, I'll keep teasing and you can be bothered, enjoy it or don't care and it makes no difference to me at all ... and please don't take this personally, I'm asked about this quite a bit. I just wish others were good at playing connect the dots ...
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Like always you miss the point of the post... If the right people are in place and the leadership says go get it done it can all be fixed that fast... But again you want to paint the picture as the world is falling and parts of it is but hey you are the way you are.

I am not a pixie duster but I am a person that knows what can get done when a company sets it mind to it. Universal has shown things can be fixed fast and new rides go up...

MK does not need another E ticket right now.. it needs fixes and if you read which you don't I said replace Stitch while redoing space complete... But again you don't read.

Epcot can be fixed in 18-24 months and then continued to be plussed after that with something every year... But seas, and mission to space will be the next to that need work but I picked Energy and Imagination to start...

My answer to your entire post: no.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
But first, Joe Rohde must visit darkest Peru and talk to the indigenous bears to make sure the experience will be authentic.

I think that's a bit of a cheap shot at Joe. His excursions are part of the reason DAK looks amazing. It could look like the Tragic Kingdom. And his spending on these trips while not insignificant in my world, are incredibly insignificant to TWDC.
 

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