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A Spirited Dirty Dozen ...

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
C'mon, Brian. You really want to compare SDL to TDS?!?!

You know it isn't a fair comparison to begin with as one park was a second gate. How about comparing SDL to TDL at opening?

And your categorizing attractions above is ... subjective at best. 20K is widely considered E caliber, while Sindbad may or may not be (I love it, but not the point). Raging Spirits also didn't open with the park. It was added later.

As to SDL ... Crystal Grotto is a C at best. It is a different (cheaper?) take on Storybook Land. But Soarin is considered an E in Anaheim and O-Town, so it should be there as well. The SDMT might qualify as a D, but Pan and Buzz are firmly C-Tix even in their plussed states. Things like the Canoes and Alice Maze would be in the B/C area. The Marvel and SW 'attractions' are only in name only. At the D23 Expo I spoke with multiple Imagineers on the project, the Americans talked them up like they were special (I knew they weren't, but I like toying with people) while the Chinese Imagineers were blunt saying things like "We don't have a Marvel attraction. Hong Kong will be getting one. Ours is an introduction and retail."

Again, I think SDL will be nice (at least until the locals trash it), but one must keep expectations in reality based terms.

The park needs significantly more attractions, which is why a Phase II is being planned as I type this.
I agree. And yes, I compared it because you previously commented that it offered way less than TDS.

My point really wasn't to get into a debate about the nitty gritty of 'what is what' in terms of ticketing. I actually WAS trying to be objective believe it or not. I like using the purpose the attraction serves (yes I much prefer 20k to Storm Rider) but 20k serves as a supporting act dark ride in its land. If I was being subjective I'd call it an E since I too agree it is amazing. It doesn't really matter, I was just listing attractions and frankly was quite generous to TDS (even gave them a bonus attraction for Raging Spirits - whoops!).

BUT - I think we both agree the park needs and is thankfully getting more. It's not worth either our time going back and forth about which is slightly better.

I'll be sure to give you my opinions either way in due course. I'm admittedly now uninformed as I'm avoiding all the videos now circulating. Your opinion on Voyage to the Crystal Grotto though... Wasn't that supposed to be the headliner?
 
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BrianLo

Well-Known Member
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The facts we know: DL is being changed in a huge way and in a way it was not intended to. You are assuming everything else. From better flow to a better RR experience. And I certainly don't know where you get the statement on the trees. ... And the BBQ and petting zoo and arena didn't destroy Walt's park. This project ... much like Club 33's redo ... is doing that.

As to how they are executing it, you can't possibly comment because you don't know.
I guess that goes both ways though, can either of us comment on it? It's all one big assumption. That's part of the fun of the back and forth debate here

The arena and the petting zoo took over an area formerly occupied by a Walt-era E-ticket. The way we are throwing around the word destroy these days, I'd say that's up there. If we really want to talk about something mucking up the ROA - it was Fantasmic. Yet, when the end result is good, suddenly it fits neatly into what Walt would want. I have nothing against either and love Fantasmic, by the way.

The arena and BBQ/zoo are the only actual things that were guest accessible areas that are going away. Otherwise a ride is being shortened (~13%), another re-routed, Fantasmic is getting proper dedicated storage. That's it - well unless you are a lover of backstage areas.

Although yes, I can certainly comment on the trees and everything else I mentioned. It's all publicly available info at this point anyways.

I don't want to be obnoxious about it, but there are a few things I've staunchly 'assumed'. Even recently against the insider grain that have been on point. This is one of those times I'm being staunch. I don't mean to be a contrarian all the time, but I just like to jump in when I have something different to add to a conversation. If I don't, I'd rather not clutter things up with more of the same.
 

TeriofTerror

Well-Known Member
And she's been so successful, right? Just parade your dragons around, and make pronouncements and everyone will bend to your rule. Turns out, you can't just come in, announce change and change happens. Not when there is a system hell bent on maintaining the status quo, and anyone who challenges the leader is quickly dispatched. This is what naive Disney fans expect, that somewhere there is a savior who has been living in exile, who is suddenly going to be elevated into a position of power where good things will just descend from the heavens. You need a treasury, you need an army devoted to the cause, but that matters not without effective leadership. So unless one of the Seven Dwarfs is secretly a Lannister who has been underestimated and marginalized his entire life...
The Prince Charming that was promised?
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
Disney of the 80s and 90s would have taken your free advice and made the Studios' transformation an event in itself.

Disney of 2016 will probably sell quarter-size pieces of the Streets of America for $79/each.


No problem. I read everything on my threads ... at least for the first hundred pages and then ... not so much unless great conversation is being had. I respond where I feel appropriate.



I'm just reporting what my sources tell me. And on Shanghai they have been damn near 100% perfect. So sure, they could be off here ... or maybe Disney was just able to kick things into gear. Not sure. I haven't gotten notes from anyone (and they read me almost as religiously as the fanboi Twits) that something I've posted is off or that things have changed. But when you jump on me and do so in what came off quite accusatory ... well, let's just say I've had years of experience with people taking potshots at me. Legit criticism I absolutely can handle.



I absolutely agree with the above. When I look at WDW's current state I blame Iger, Chapek and Kalogridis (in that order) because they are tasked with the responsibility of running the operation. I could blame some of the people who have come before ... from Al Weiss to Lee Cockerell to Paul Pressler to Michael Eisner to Jay Rasulo to Tom Staggs to plenty of folks I am leaving out, but the bottom line in May of 2016 falls to the current leadership.

With the current level of profits, Disney could do great things even while parks like TPFKaTD-MGMS is a mess. Let's give some free consulting (something I hate doing, but they won't steal this one so who cares?) now. Instead of offering $69 cupcake parties for Star Wars pyro viewing, imagine the good will Disney could engender if every day there was a Star Wars Surprise at the Studios as this giant mess takes place in the cesspool (don't tell crazy Tom Amity) that once was a great park. Imagine if every day something different and special were offered FOR FREE as part of the park's transformation? One day you show up and find out that Luke Skywalker himself is there and the first 1,000 people in get free autographs and admission to a chat with him that is broadcast throughout the park. Another day, everyone who shows up is given a pin (not a cheap one ... but a pin they'd sell for $6.99 or $8.99) SW related. Another day, everyone who walks through gets a coupon good for a free Yoda cupcake. Another day, guests randomly win SW prizes (everything from plush to art). etc etc.

You think that good will might mean something? Disney is so greedy and arrogant, though.

But back to your point as it is a good one: today's problems shouldn't be blamed on Shanghai or NGE, but on the execs who are in charge of those expenditures.



I can't speak to that. Others were talking about the location of various parts of SWL, which -- to be fair to them -- were in flux often over the last three years. But I NEVER said SWL is going in (fill in the blank) area. So please don't blame me for that.



What things don't line up? I'd like to know what I have said in this thread (or others) recently that was or is incorrect.



I have no trouble moving on. But you haven't been clear on what your doubts are. What you think I have gotten so wrong. If we're disagreeing on something, then I'd like to at least know what that is.
 
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Mike S

Well-Known Member
It only is tiresome and repetitive because people (mostly the rah-rah we love Bob Iger's IP binges!) focus on whether one likes SW or not when that is not the issue. I like SW just fine. But I am in no way a rabid fan. I think SW has had more bad films than good. I think The Force Awakens biggest strength was that it wasn't unwatchable like the last three films, which is hardly huge praise. My argument -- and it's a good one because people who knew and worked with Walt and the WED greats that followed him almost to a man or woman HATE the placement -- is simply that SW does not belong in DL. And that it is fundamentally altering the park in a way that nothing else has in 60-plus years.



The facts we know: DL is being changed in a huge way and in a way it was not intended to. You are assuming everything else. From better flow to a better RR experience. And I certainly don't know where you get the statement on the trees. ... And the BBQ and petting zoo and arena didn't destroy Walt's park. This project ... much like Club 33's redo ... is doing that.



I just said I don't have disdain for SW. I also have only see TFA 1 3/4 times. I don't have any SW clothing. I don't own hardly any SW products. And I'll take my knowledge of DL's history and purpose combined with knowing people who helped create and nurture it over the years over fans on a discussion forum that just like what they like and don't care about history, theme or purpose. We might as well force UNI to give up Marvel rights and move the Hulk coaster from IOA to EPCOT!



That's incorrect. Of course there are. ... But, yes, the debate is sorta meaningless because Bob Iger made the call and we all have to now live with his legacy. ... As to how they are executing it, you can't possibly comment because you don't know. You may hope they execute it very, very well (I hope and believe that they will). But we are a good 2.5 years (at best) away from a debut in Anaheim (and closer to 4-5 years in FL), so there is no way we can make that call yet.
4-5 years for DHS SWL?!?!?! I thought the recent rumors said it was 6 months to a year behind DL!!!!!!! :eek:
You know what I want for the 50th Anniversary? Them to first acknowledge and do something for the 45th!!!

I am too old to keep hearing 'Wait, things will get better by 2003. Oops, we had terrorists, so better make that 2007. But the head of the company decided he wanted to look into selling part or all of P&R, so can't invest wait ... OK ... going to invest ... Oops, global financial meltdown, who cares that WDW set records in 2008 and construction labor and materials were at an all-time low ... nope, can't do anything. But wait ... we're building a kinda, sorta, not really much at all New Fantasyland ... but you need to wait until 2013 for it to be done and ignore the other 2/3rds of the land still stuck in the 70s. ... Oops, we lost Potter rights because Iger can't handle big egos that aren't his, so he'll show UNI ... he has Avatar rights ... top motion picture of all time coming to DAK ... six years later. ... And so it goes ..."

I'm tired of waiting. Disney hasn't wowed me in FL since they opened DAK. That was 18 years ago. Ask anyone who just turned 18 and they'll call it a lifetime ... time's more than up!
Lol, you got me there :hilarious:
 

wdrive

Well-Known Member
Because they are generally very expensive and unnecessary. It's usually a vanity issue and this is 2016 - photographs can be taken by just one person locally and sent over the Internet, for crying out loud.

I'm sorry, I know folks disagree with me, but with Everest, for example - if you had given me $100K and a tractor trailer truck to haul the crap, I could have spent a few weeks going to flea markets right here in the US and gotten stuff to junk up the queue with and it would have been just as "authentic" to 99.5% of guests.

Trekking around the world in that case was simply wasting all that money - which ended up costing us interior theming on the actual ride, leaving us with the lovely skrims - and oh yeah, a poorly designed Yeti.
There's a 1400s (or maybe 1600s?) Portuguese antique table in the Tower of Terror lobby. And it's nowhere near any guests, is tucked away in the top left hand corner where 90% of guests won't even look and the ones that do will give little more than a passing glance. I'm sure WDI could have made an old looking table for a fraction of the cost.
 

wdisney9000

Well-Known Member
Just had to drop this link because THIS is what WDW has become all about: cupcakes ... a cheap, high-calorie, kiddie dessert that obese lifestylers live for.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/trav...inkles-perks-free-cupcake-20160510-story.html
Cupcakes are basically Disneys version of duct tape....they think it can fix anything. At what point will the company reevaluate their collective group of decision makers who fail to yield any solutions for new or exciting promotions that are not centered around cupcakes?
 

gmajew

Premium Member
My answer to your entire post: no.

I am going to disagree with you on that. A company culture can change in less then 6 months if right leadership is in place. The maint issues the cleanliness can be fixed in the parks if the budget is given and the leadership wants it. Even a good manager can take pride and make major changes in cleanliness immediately with no budget.

The issue is will leadership make it happen? I don't think so but new blood may have a different set of goals and make it happen. I know when I take over a business the first thing I do is change the culture of the business to what I want it to be and then go in and fix the brand. It takes time and money but it can be done. Have done it for companies with 3000 units down to 10 unit chains.

I see moments lately of them doing the right thing even if it is forced by the state of the neglect from past they are doing things. We heard rave reviews on the pirate refurb the work on Main Street building to name a few. So it can be done just not consistently yet.
 

wdisney9000

Well-Known Member
Im sure its been discussed but has the company announced any plans to prevent the Shanghai park from being trashed and literally deficated on by guests aain after they officially open? Or were they somewhat aware of the culture and prepared to continually clean up after them? The picture where someone carved graffiti (or whatever you wanna call it) into a light pole is puzzling. It must have taken at least a minute or two. Did a CM or a guest (that cares) not see them doing it?

poop2.jpg

poop1.jpg

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sporadic

Well-Known Member
Im sure its been discussed but has the company announced any plans to prevent the Shanghai park from being trashed and literally deficated on by guests aain after they officially open? Or were they somewhat aware of the culture and prepared to continually clean up after them? The picture where someone carved graffiti (or whatever you wanna call it) into a light pole is puzzling. It must have taken at least a minute or two. Did a CM or a guest (that cares) not see them doing it?
View attachment 141666
Same thing happens in Orlando. I've witnessed a family have their kid pee behind a planter on the asphalt while in queue for the Cars meet and greet at DHS. And they were 'Mericans! *** is wrong with these people?
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
More than anything else, the execs seem to be using Shanghai and NGE as scapegoats for their poor management during the last 20 years, and their inability to deliver the incredible lands they promised when they tried to cover their failures.

I'm more interested in the recently overinflated ticket, resort, and food prices. Who's the imaginary demographic Disney is pursuing? A Disney vacation will soon be too expensive for an average upper-middle-class family, and wealthy people won't be impressed when they show up and their $800/night room is closer to a Courtyard Marriott than a Ritz.
The new targeted demographic is now the "Wall Street Dads" according to a few insiders. All your comments apply in spades
 
There's rumour and there's guessing.

I'd still bet on late 19 maybe into 20 for WDW.
This really makes me want to bash my head into the wall.

But you know that? It's all good. Really. It's ok. If I can still afford Disney in a few years (at the way they're raising prices, I don't know if my meager paycheck will suffice) I'm fully planning on a California vacation anyhow.

They don't wanna speed it up in WDW, fine. I'll go elsewhere.
 

Andrew C

I'll admit though, is my shirt in there?
Premium Member
This really makes me want to bash my head into the wall.

But you know that? It's all good. Really. It's ok. If I can still afford Disney in a few years (at the way they're raising prices, I don't know if my meager paycheck will suffice) I'm fully planning on a California vacation anyhow.

They don't wanna speed it up in WDW, fine. I'll go elsewhere.
I think the 2019/2020 is sped up...hahaha...geez, it is almost 2017 right?
 

tribbleorlfl

Well-Known Member
They're absolutely not the same. Look at the size and scale of the two properties if nothing else. 4 parks, 2 (formerly 3 water parks), monorails versus 2 parks.

Universal had dark days but was never in the shape that WDW is in today.
I never said they were the same. WDW was always known for a quality, uncompromising, second-to-none experience that started a decade-long gradual decline to where it is now. UO was largely irrelevant, always measured itself to the competition down the street and very rapidly let things go after opening a somewhat revolutionary park in IOA.

If anything, UO's size relative to WDW makes their "dark days" worse to me. With an operation as large as WDW's, it's understandable things start falling through the cracks here and there, or small cuts made, all piling up over time. UO had no excuse with much newer and smaller parks.

Once again, I saw UO's "dark days" with my own eyes, experienced the turmoil behind the scenes. While the size of the operations can't be compared, the overall state of WDW is very similar to the way UO was pre-WWOHP and Comcast.
 

flynnibus

Well-Known Member
I'm moreso sick and tired of #thanksshanghai and "oh, the cuts are because of blank." It's giving an excuse to something that doesn't deserve any justification. Did Disneyland become crap in the late 60s because WDW was being built? No. Did MK become crap when Disney spent 90% of their theme park profits on Epcot? No. But today, when the company has billions of dollars in the bank, their capex % of whatever (have no idea of the actual number, maybe @ParentsOf4 knows, but less than the majority of their history) is enough to suddenly warrant cuts? Why the excuse now? Thank you for at least partially agreeing with me there, but everyone else is still putting blame on project or situtation X rather than on the execs making the decisions.
Do you seriously not understand that #thanksshanghai' is SARCASM?