The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

M

mahnamahna101

Well-Known Member
seascape said:
EPCOT is much bigger physically than the Magic Kingdom. Animal Kingdom is the largest of the 4. Magic Kingdom has a limit of about 25 million. And please go back and show me where I said any of the 3 would out draw MK. I said even if everything was done at DHS it's capacity could not increase to much more than 20 million. That is a far cry from saying it will reach that number. Where as to say MK will reach 25 million is not a stretch.

The question for the MK is how do they increase capacity or get people to go to other gates. I have my ideas and others have theirs. I do like the idea of expanding North of It's a Small world and do find those on another threads idea of moving it to Epcot an interesting idea but I also love the idea of removing to go carts and putting in 2 new rides even more.

Back to universal.. what are you smoking to say that Universal has more room to expand than Disney? Disney has so much more land than all the vacant land around universal. To believe your statement you must believe the world is flat and there is no global warming and that Disney will build a monorail to Universal.
Click to expand...
Epcot may be huge but Disney isn't doing anything with its expansion pads and outdated pavillions

AK is huge, but only has 8 noteworthy attractions. Pandora will bring it to 10. It could still use 10 more. Great park but needs more to do.

DHS ain't touching 20 million guests... well ever. 12-13 million is a reasonable number if they actually invest in the park.

MK may hold 25 million but they need more attractions in order for those kinds of crowds to be manageable.

What I meant by expand/grow is that it's much easier for Universal to reach 10-12 million a park than Disney to reach 15-20 for all 4 of its. Universal is taking the Disneyland method of how to maximize space. And Hollywood Studios is going down by 2017 if Universal keeps on adding E tickets and new things to do each year.

Of course WDW is bigger... but all they're adding is hotels and MM+. Sure there's Pandora. But why not rework backstage areas at MK to allow a mega expansion of the park? Why not give Epcot a nice facelift? Why not fix DHS? Why not fill AK up with attractions?
TDO just doesn't care anymore... I find it hard to believe stagnant parks can keep increasing (MK and AK are the only ones getting substantial attendance increases anytime soon)
 
F

FloridaRes

Active Member
PhotoDave219 said:
Side Tangent:

Remember Sam Lau, the new head of Epcot who was brought in as the new head of transportation and then moved a few months back?

Well turns out he was making waves. Too many waves. He was trying to make too many changes and was pushing for things that would have cost money at the resorts. (Expanded load zones and other stuff) Now this would mean the individual resorts would have to pay for the construction, impacting the bottom line and the GM would no longer be able to save money and impacting his ability to earn a bonus. So they moved him.
Click to expand...

See the underlined part please. I call total BS on this. As a 42 yr. CM in Finance, mostly in Resorts, I know individual GM's do not pay for any of this kind of thing. In fact, GM's control very little, even their budgets are handed to them.
Also, as of today, Sam Lau is still listed in Rostr as VP of Epcot
 
lazyboy97o

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Goofyernmost said:
I understand what you are saying, but, I think it is a tad premature to think that Uni can do for Orlando what Disney has if Disney no longer existed. They neither have the size or draw of Disney. I would say that they are moving in the right direction, but, until they have established the same reputation (whether currently true or not) that Disney has concerning Theme Parks in general and focus in particular, they will never carry the area on their own. They might survive, no doubt, but it would be disastrous for the Orlando/Kissimmee area.
Click to expand...
I never said anything remotely close to that. The conventional wisdom inside Disney and amongst many fans was that anybody who went to Orlando was, essentially by default, going to go to Walt Disney World. It was the "a rising tide lifts all boats" philosophy. Nobody believed that people would, in sizable numbers, only visit Universal Orlando Resort, but they have been. People are willing to travel to Orlando and never step foot on Disney property.

spacemt354 said:
Hmm I seem to remember whenever a new attraction was opened, that would be the focus of the ad, if not the entire advertisement (ex: expedition Everest, new ToT back in 2004, new Star Tours, Finding Nemo in 2006, etc)

And of course you would get a few answers saying Fantasyland, but it depends on who you ask. If you ask someone who doesn't care about Disney (the people who were focusing on in your initial argument) I bet you wouldn't even get an answer. You'd get another question..."what's the haunted mansion?"
Click to expand...
Set aside the new attraction advertisements, which were near nonexistent for Star Tours: The Adventures Continue, and for some time now Walt Disney World commercials are essentially Magic Kingdom commercials. There is very little indication that there are three other parks.

(I am sure some will say it is too costly for Disney to film at the other parks as most of the time the commercials have Disneyland playing the part of the Magic Kingdom.)

the.dreamfinder said:
In case anyone is wondering how WDW used to be operated.
http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-it-was-done-part-one.html
http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-it-was-done-part-two.html
http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2012/10/how-it-was-done-part-three.html
http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2012/10/how-it-was-done-part-four.html
Click to expand...
I have posted these a few times in the past and it is amazing how often they get ignored because "nothing has changed."
 
M

mahnamahna101

Well-Known Member
seascape said:
I love Epcot. It's needs some TLC but it has not fallen apart. Redo Energy and Imagination and put something in WoL and future world is fine. Put the rat in France and add one country and world show case is better than ever. Even if they do just a couple of things EPCOT will be fine. Ask the people who live in Orlando about food and wine. It's one of the most popular events for not only the local population but DVC members as well. Epcot has the ability to draw 20 million. It will take time but it will get there. Flower and Garden is growing in popularity too. I go to both.
Click to expand...
Oh, because a festival is going to add 8 million people?
 
spacemt354

spacemt354

Chili's
seascape said:
I love Epcot. It's needs some TLC but it has not fallen apart. Redo Energy and Imagination and put something in WoL and future world is fine. Put the rat in France and add one country and world show case is better than ever. Even if they do just a couple of things EPCOT will be fine. Ask the people who live in Orlando about food and wine. It's one of the most popular events for not only the local population but DVC members as well. Epcot has the ability to draw 20 million. It will take time but it will get there. Flower and Garden is growing in popularity too. I go to both.
Click to expand...

20 million? We are talking about people that is right? The Magic Kingdom doesn't even draw that many guests.
 
yellowstone7123

yellowstone7123

Member
WDW1974 said:
Yep, I have been to all of those nations as well as about two dozen more and never paid close to $550 a night for a standard hotel room. I'm still waiting for someone here to come forward and say 'I did and I am not sorry and here is why.'' That looks about as likely as someone sending me proof that Disney has decided to rush a January start for SW at Studios.
Click to expand...

OK, I have paid those amounts and more. I do not like it but I am not sorry. I did it because I could afford it. I do not like Orlando so if I am going to go to Disney I am going to stay on property regardless of the cost. On my next trip down, I plan on going to Universal for a few days and might even stay there as opposed to Disney.

I have travelled extensively since I was born. I realize that the cost for a Disney stay is usually way over the cost of a stay at most places. I like that I can take the family there and turn off my brain for a while, have fun and not have worries. I have been to some places over the years that are awesome but you have to keep your wits about you or things could go bad fast.

I have fun at WDW with my kids but once they are all grown and gone, WDW will probably drop from my “places to go this year” list.
 
S

seascape

Well-Known Member
spacemt354 said:
According to 2013 TEA rankings,
Universal Studios Orlando had a 14% park attendance increase in 2013 from 6,195,000 to 7,062,000.
IOA: 2% increase from 7,981,000 to 8,141,000
Disney Hollywood Studios: 2% increase from 9,912,000 to 10,110,000
Disney's Animal Kingdom: 2% increase from 9,998,000 to 10,198,000

Let's say DHS doesn't add anything to it's parks till the rumored Star Wars addition (in 2018/2019).

If, theoretically, DHS attendance remains constant, or if it increases by 1% or 2% each year till the big rumored Star Wars addition, it would take IOA 4 years, at roughly a 8% increase each year in order to overtake DHS and 5 years at a roughly 6-7% increase each year.

This is not a pipe dream. With the expansions and additions to Uni over the next few years, IOA could be on track to surpass DHS before Star Wars opens or even breaks ground.
Click to expand...
Can I get you to at least are on this.

1. New rides and attractions take space.
2. People take space.
3. US is only a certain size.
4. IOA is a certain size.

If you agree to those 4 facts then you have to admit there is a physical limit to expansion of the 2 parks. I will not deny that Universal can add a third gate but it would be a third gate and so it could not result in an increase of attendance in the 2 parks.

As for AK it seems the people complaining about it are those with universal colored glasses. It will grow and will grow much faster than either of the universal parks after what is planned is finished. In 2017 there will be over 15 million a year in attendance at AK. EPCOT will grow also. Even if very little is done the growth of Food and Wine and Flower and Garden will keep it above either Universal Park. And no matter how people love HP, there are still a 10 million light sabers sold a year. That is a number that shows Star Wars has more of a draw than HP. Once Disney builds what we all know is coming DHS will draw over 15 million a year. You can count on it. The only ones who could deny that are those who do not understand the draw of star wars and for the record I prefer star trek. I also love shrek and the minions.
 
spacemt354

spacemt354

Chili's
seascape said:
Can I get you to at least are on this.

1. New rides and attractions take space.
2. People take space.
3. US is only a certain size.
4. IOA is a certain size.

If you agree to those 4 facts then you have to admit there is a physical limit to expansion of the 2 parks. I will not deny that Universal can add a third gate but it would be a third gate and so it could not result in an increase of attendance in the 2 parks.

As for AK it seems the people complaining about it are those with universal colored glasses. It will grow and will grow much faster than either of the universal parks after what is planned is finished. In 2017 there will be over 15 million a year in attendance at AK. EPCOT will grow also. Even if very little is done the growth of Food and Wine and Flower and Garden will keep it above either Universal Park. And no matter how people love HP, there are still a 10 million light sabers sold a year. That is a number that shows Star Wars has more of a draw than HP. Once Disney builds what we all know is coming DHS will draw over 15 million a year. You can count on it. The only ones who could deny that are those who do not understand the draw of star wars and for the record I prefer star trek. I also love shrek and the minions.
Click to expand...

1.) Yes
2.) Yes
3.) No
4.) No

When the FLE was built, it used existing land that was once utilized by 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, and adapted the land in a way so that the park could hold a greater capacity. Walking paths were implemented where there used to be a lake for the subs. With the FLE, land once unusable to guests was now open.

To say that US and IOA is only a certain size is not true. Both can manipulate their spaces by expanding their usable space. Expanding usable space to guests increases the amount of guests that can be in the park at one time (ie increase capacity) In addition to that, adding or replacing attractions with new attractions that have a greater hourly capacity also facilitates a larger park capacity. So, no, US and IOA are not only a certain size.

How come Disney parks seem to have no ceiling of capacity for you, yet Universal is somehow capped and can never grow?
 
P

pheneix

Well-Known Member
WDW1974 said:
The issue isn't that Disney can't do this caliber work. They can.

The issue is Disney doesn't really care whether they do or not and they'd rather do as little as possible at WDW.
Click to expand...

LOL no way in hell WDI will ever touch what Universal is accomplishing. Even their best and brightest like crazy earring guy simply don't have the ambition and passion to create experiences that people actually *want* to see.

WDI is a black hole.
 
P

pheneix

Well-Known Member
WDW1974 said:
So, Disney isn't afraid of UNI taking business away, right? Just in from a kind friend in Burbank, but look at Fallon's set now and look at clips of it from Monday. You'll notice some significant changes that were the result of TWDC threatening via Zenia and legal to go to the government and file a complaint because of what was perceived by Disney as constant advertising for free (even if they are the same company, no money was exchanged, no ad time bought). So suddenly the UNI globe disappeared and the UNI arch was made tougher to make out/blurred and Fallon was moved into a blocking position in front of it.

Yes, Disney is that petty. Really. Mindblowingly petty. ...
Click to expand...

This is not being talked about nearly enough. And no one at WDC even gave half a second's consideration to what the blow back so such a stunt could be.

Say goodbye to Christmas Parade TV tapings folks!
 
T

twebber55

Well-Known Member
seascape said:
Can I get you to at least are on this.

1. New rides and attractions take space.
2. People take space.
3. US is only a certain size.
4. IOA is a certain size.

If you agree to those 4 facts then you have to admit there is a physical limit to expansion of the 2 parks. I will not deny that Universal can add a third gate but it would be a third gate and so it could not result in an increase of attendance in the 2 parks.

As for AK it seems the people complaining about it are those with universal colored glasses. It will grow and will grow much faster than either of the universal parks after what is planned is finished. In 2017 there will be over 15 million a year in attendance at AK. EPCOT will grow also. Even if very little is done the growth of Food and Wine and Flower and Garden will keep it above either Universal Park. And no matter how people love HP, there are still a 10 million light sabers sold a year. That is a number that shows Star Wars has more of a draw than HP. Once Disney builds what we all know is coming DHS will draw over 15 million a year. You can count on it. The only ones who could deny that are those who do not understand the draw of star wars and for the record I prefer star trek. I also love shrek and the minions.
Click to expand...
obviously if you know me you know im a huge fan of what Disney is doing at DAK but I also love universal
understanding that about me I recognize that universal is growing and if trends continue can pass a couple of the Disney parks, remember universal has a large expansion pad between simpsons and MIB if needed
so there is always room to expand
again not getting into the silly debate between the two sides both have stuff for my family that they love
 
Last edited:
wdisney9000

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
The Crafty Veteran said:
Lots of stuff on Yahoo business about Potter at Universal. Reports about all of Potter costing around a billion dollars with the new ride costing almost half of that. Pundits also predicting the new area won't be as successful as the first. The user comments, being unedited and unmoderated are a riot.
Click to expand...
Is it me, or does the Yahoo article seem a bit slanted against the new Harry Potter phase? They start right off with "1 ride, 7 shops" as if they are trying to jab at it. Yes, they do mention several good things, but to immediately begin with highlighting that aspect to plant it in the readers mind seems like shoddy journalism. And who is Yahoo to speculate how much money the new phase will pull in? I could see how people who dont know any better will easily get the impression that it might not be worth checking out. Is Disney connected with them in any way that could persuade them to write a slanted review? (money talks also). Theyre obviously in damge control mode as shown with how they reacted to Jimmy Fallons show pumping Uni

Yahoo news has never been stellar in my opinion. Theyre definitely biased as proven when they write certain political articles to get a point (or agenda) across and then dont allow comments to be made.
 
M

mahnamahna101

Well-Known Member
seascape said:
Can I get you to at least are on this.

1. New rides and attractions take space.
2. People take space.
3. US is only a certain size.
4. IOA is a certain size.

If you agree to those 4 facts then you have to admit there is a physical limit to expansion of the 2 parks. I will not deny that Universal can add a third gate but it would be a third gate and so it could not result in an increase of attendance in the 2 parks.

As for AK it seems the people complaining about it are those with universal colored glasses. It will grow and will grow much faster than either of the universal parks after what is planned is finished. In 2017 there will be over 15 million a year in attendance at AK. EPCOT will grow also. Even if very little is done the growth of Food and Wine and Flower and Garden will keep it above either Universal Park. And no matter how people love HP, there are still a 10 million light sabers sold a year. That is a number that shows Star Wars has more of a draw than HP. Once Disney builds what we all know is coming DHS will draw over 15 million a year. You can count on it. The only ones who could deny that are those who do not understand the draw of star wars and for the record I prefer star trek. I also love shrek and the minions.
Click to expand...
...Animal Kingdom would be lucky to get 12 million a year. Pandora isn't Potter. And Star Wars Land isn't coming until 2019 at the earliest, 2021-2022 more likely.

Universal can fit 10 mlilion or so right now... add in the rumored expansions to USF and IOA, not to mention the fact that Universal is taking a note from Disneyland in terms of using space. A few of the soundstages at USF could very well be removed if they ever wanted to expand Seuss, for example. The Wonka proposal for LC included 3 attractions, rather than 2. There's enough dead space at both parks that Universal can spruce up and put an attraction at. The mystery plot next to MIB is HUGE... it's about 1.5 Diagon Alleys...

If you seriously think Epcot is getting to 20 million guests with a Frozen overlay of Maelstrom and a few festivals... oh boy :rolleyes: Animal Kingdom has 9.9 million guests now... probably the same this year. 10 million in 2014, say a decline because of Potter 2.0's first full year, another decline due to pre-Pandora, 9.6-9.7 million by January 2017. You seriously think 2 attractions alone and maybe a nighttime show will cause attendance to increase by 5 million? Yet USF and IOA can't get to 10-12 million guests despite rapid expansion and the advantage of being on a hot streak?

Even with Star Wars Land, DHS isn't getting past 12 million. The park needs a lot more than that. A Muppets mini-land, large-scale Pixar Place expansion, a complete overhaul of Animation Courtyard, a extensive upgrade to GMR, removal of the BAH, some sort of family dark ride along Sunset Blvd (something like Mystic Manor could be great!), replacements for B&TB and Little Mermaid... even with all of that, take in TDO's long construction timetables... that would be finished by 2021-2022 at the EARLIEST since Disney is in love with phases.

Universal isn't JUST adding Potter... they're adding Kong, completely overhauling KidZone with the intent on maximizing its space to allow higher capacity and more immersion (also clearing up the bottleneck eventually), Seuss and JP are going to get expansions some time after both of those, Hotel 5 and a 2nd CityWalk are on the horizon, Hotel 6 might be on the drawing board without us even knowing it. A ground-breaking water park is supposedly in the works, and with enough land acquistions, we could very well see Hotel 7 and a 3rd gate some day. Not to mention Universal might decide to keep Wet n' Wild as is... and might buy SeaWorld someday (attendance is lower and lower each year... Potter 2.0 + SDMT might be the death blow). 4 gates, 2 water parks... gee whiz, just like Disney!! And each would actually be filled to the brim with attractions rather than 6-8!

Middle Earth, Star Trek, Godzilla, Fast and Furious, Universal Monsters, TMNT, SpongeBob, Scooby-Doo - some of the IPs that may very well get a new attraction... all of which are non-Potter based. LOTR, Potter, Marvel, Dr. Seuss, Minions, Kong, JP, Transformers - quite a lineup of IPs. And if Universal ever got the theme park rights to Nintendo... Nintendo + LOTR= must-see 3rd gate. Potter also may get a 3rd phase. Wonka would be a merchandise machine if they came up with enough unique food/drink options.

You act as if Disney can feasibly add 5 million guests in a year... without doing anything. Epcot may be able to hold 20 million, but the stagnation and lack of ANYTHING new since 2007. Festivals won't get it to 20 million, but some Universal-esque E-tickets, a nice parade, a complete revamp of Future World, and new, non-cartoon based additions to World Showcase just might. DHS might get to 15 million with a DCA-level overhaul of the entire park sans ToT. AK might get to 15 million with Beastly Kingdom, Australia, a few family dark rides, and a complete Dinoland overhaul. Otherwise, they'll stick to 0.1%-1.0% increases, maybe 2.0% if there's a new show/parade.

Meanwhile, USF and IOA ARE getting to over 10 million guests by 2020 in each park... that's just a foregone conclusion with how much they're building/planning to build for the parks. And you know what? Comcast deserves it - when you build it, they will come. Disney ought to heed Shoeless Joe Jackson's advice :)
 
T

twebber55

Well-Known Member
mahnamahna101 said:
...Animal Kingdom would be lucky to get 12 million a year. Pandora isn't Potter. And Star Wars Land isn't coming until 2019 at the earliest, 2021-2022 more likely.

Universal can fit 10 mlilion or so right now... add in the rumored expansions to USF and IOA, not to mention the fact that Universal is taking a note from Disneyland in terms of using space. A few of the soundstages at USF could very well be removed if they ever wanted to expand Seuss, for example. The Wonka proposal for LC included 3 attractions, rather than 2. There's enough dead space at both parks that Universal can spruce up and put an attraction at. The mystery plot next to MIB is HUGE... it's about 1.5 Diagon Alleys...

If you seriously think Epcot is getting to 20 million guests with a Frozen overlay of Maelstrom and a few festivals... oh boy :rolleyes: Animal Kingdom has 9.9 million guests now... probably the same this year. 10 million in 2014, say a decline because of Potter 2.0's first full year, another decline due to pre-Pandora, 9.6-9.7 million by January 2017. You seriously think 2 attractions alone and maybe a nighttime show will cause attendance to increase by 5 million? Yet USF and IOA can't get to 10-12 million guests despite rapid expansion and the advantage of being on a hot streak?

Even with Star Wars Land, DHS isn't getting past 12 million. The park needs a lot more than that. A Muppets mini-land, large-scale Pixar Place expansion, a complete overhaul of Animation Courtyard, a extensive upgrade to GMR, removal of the BAH, some sort of family dark ride along Sunset Blvd (something like Mystic Manor could be great!), replacements for B&TB and Little Mermaid... even with all of that, take in TDO's long construction timetables... that would be finished by 2021-2022 at the EARLIEST since Disney is in love with phases.

Universal isn't JUST adding Potter... they're adding Kong, completely overhauling KidZone with the intent on maximizing its space to allow higher capacity and more immersion (also clearing up the bottleneck eventually), Seuss and JP are going to get expansions some time after both of those, Hotel 5 and a 2nd CityWalk are on the horizon, Hotel 6 might be on the drawing board without us even knowing it. A ground-breaking water park is supposedly in the works, and with enough land acquistions, we could very well see Hotel 7 and a 3rd gate some day. Not to mention Universal might decide to keep Wet n' Wild as is... and might buy SeaWorld someday (attendance is lower and lower each year... Potter 2.0 + SDMT might be the death blow). 4 gates, 2 water parks... gee whiz, just like Disney!! And each would actually be filled to the brim with attractions rather than 6-8!

Middle Earth, Star Trek, Godzilla, Fast and Furious, Universal Monsters, TMNT, SpongeBob, Scooby-Doo - some of the IPs that may very well get a new attraction... all of which are non-Potter based. LOTR, Potter, Marvel, Dr. Seuss, Minions, Kong, JP, Transformers - quite a lineup of IPs. And if Universal ever got the theme park rights to Nintendo... Nintendo + LOTR= must-see 3rd gate. Potter also may get a 3rd phase. Wonka would be a merchandise machine if they came up with enough unique food/drink options.

You act as if Disney can feasibly add 5 million guests in a year... without doing anything. Epcot may be able to hold 20 million, but the stagnation and lack of ANYTHING new since 2007. Festivals won't get it to 20 million, but some Universal-esque E-tickets, a nice parade, a complete revamp of Future World, and new, non-cartoon based additions to World Showcase just might. DHS might get to 15 million with a DCA-level overhaul of the entire park sans ToT. AK might get to 15 million with Beastly Kingdom, Australia, a few family dark rides, and a complete Dinoland overhaul. Otherwise, they'll stick to 0.1%-1.0% increases, maybe 2.0% if there's a new show/parade.

Meanwhile, USF and IOA ARE getting to over 10 million guests by 2020 in each park... that's just a foregone conclusion with how much they're building/planning to build for the parks. And you know what? Comcast deserves it - when you build it, they will come. Disney ought to heed Shoeless Joe Jackson's advice :)
Click to expand...

I don't think there is any question DAK will get to 12 million by 2017
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom