Al Lutz: "Management must stop bending over to pick up pennies as dollars fly over their heads"

[ParentsOf4]

I disagree ... to a point.

I feel that Al made a very good case for Avatar being a disaster that needs to stop before it starts (sorta where they are anyway).

I think the only way he doesn't persuade people is the same way folks who believe in a certain political party no matter what or worship a certain religion no matter what and view WDW as something akin to politics/religion will never change an opinion/belief no matter how many facts get tossed their way.

I don't think we are that far apart. I simply believe Avatarland will sink or swim on its own merits, not because of its association with a less than ideal property.

I think we'd all prefer a Carsland, or a Star Wars Land, or a Star Trek Land (Live long and prosper!) but, as you wrote, I suspect we're stuck with Avatarland because of someone's ego (either Iger or Staggs). I sometimes wonder if Iger is worried about his WDW legacy. He essentially inherited the few previous WDW projects that have actually been completed under his tenure, including FLE, and, in his mind, Iger thinks Avatarland is his chance to finally leave his own legacy at WDW. Financially, he should pull the plug on Avatarland now and go with a property he already owns (Can anyone say "Ewok Village"?) but at this point he's green-lit Avatarland and his ego won't let him back down.

Meanwhile, I'd like to believe Cameron's ego won't let TDO do a half job of Avatarland. We're already worried that TDO is going to do a Carsland junior. With Lucas in semi-retirement and WDW owning the IP, I'm concerned TDO would end up doing a half job on a possible "Star Wars Land". Given today's TDO climate, maybe Avatarland is the best way to go for now. Let's get Carsland going at DHS and bring on Star War Land later when there's real leadership at TDO who wants to make sure it's a success. (I still shudder when I think what TDO might have done with Harry Potter.)

Regarding Al's article, I think it needed more facts and figures to give it some gravitas. Instead, it came across like a Sunday Op Ed piece that's forgotten by Monday morning.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

It would be nice if Mommy and Daddy limited your access to a computer.

It's not all bad. I've yielded no end of amusement from CBF ever since he tried to claim WDI was in charge of maintenance and budget at WDW and were the ones responsible for rides like Splash Mountain being in the state they're in (as he claims, an indisputable fact that we're all idiots for not realizing). It's especially awesome how personally he takes it when someone mentions TDO and especially Meg Crofton in a negative light. I can't help but be entertained when I read comments like that. Mods aren't going to get rid of them, and dumb parents aren't going to keep their kiddies off the internet (the kid probably inherited some of his nonsense FROM his parents). Might as well enjoy it.

In the previous pages there were indeed plenty of people attacking Lutz and saying he has no credibility. What a shock, people with common sense being stoned by the usual suspects whenever they're too insecure to handle the truth. Doesn't matter, our resident intelligent and level headed members are always there as well, looks like they even outnumber the Lutz haters by a pretty large quantity too.

 

[WDW1974]

There is at least one I can think of that shows a clear bias. In the year prior to Star Tours II opening, he would constantly berate the WDW version as being an inferior cost-cutting version in several ways, such as featuring inferior flight motions.

When the ride finally opened, the ride proved to be identical in practically every way. And not a word was heard from Al on the matters since. How strange.

Al said correctly that TDO wanted a cheaper version, not what was built. Burbank stepped in (perhaps, already eyeing Lucasfilm) and demanded the full treatment. He was and remains 100% correct about that.

 

[WDW1974]

Everywhere I look people say this same thing. Build Star Wars. If they build it, we will come. There is so much goodwill towards that franchise it is untrue. I have never done that Avatar questionaire with my friends. But for Star Wars...I didn't even have to. Everybody I spoke to last month mentioned to me that Disney had bought SW, and that there was going to be a new movie, and what exciting news it all was.
Everybody loves SW, from eight year old boys to middle aged women.

I wouldn't say that. Plenty of folks don't give a damn. Or, like me, they appreciate the films (the originals anyway) but prefer the more intellectual Star Trek worlds. But there's no doubt, that SW resonates with millions of people all over the globe.

Avatar resonates with James Cameron, some studio execs and 6,312 fanbois who have never touched a girl (or boy) before.

 

[WDW1974]

I hope other people besides Lutz keep yelling about Avatar and the other wrong-headed things going on at TDO. Although I don't know how much it would help. Remember that the Orlando Sentinel did a humiliating story about the broken yeti, and all Disney did was make excuses and continue to ignore the issue.

It wasn't a humilating story (even if it ed off folks at TDO). It was a small blog post. A large humilating story would have been nice, but this IS Jason Garcia we're talking about. He isn't a bulldog reporter.

Tell you what...when Universal finishes building its value resort, I might just stay there next time I'm in Orlando and just hang out at Hogwarts and such, and just give Disney maybe a day or two of my time and money, instead of the usual two weeks.

I'm spending a day of my upcoming (very short) O-Town trip at IOA/UNI myself ... and I am looking forward to having a butterbeer ... or two (frozen).

 

[andre85]

Al said correctly that TDO wanted a cheaper version, not what was built. Burbank stepped in (perhaps, already eyeing Lucasfilm) and demanded the full treatment. He was and remains 100% correct about that.

Cite? He never once said Burnank stepped in and demanded full treatment as far as I've seen

 

[WDW1974]

I think it's the history. While both Disneyland and WDW have great backstories, I would argue Disneyland's history clearly has more substance and even more meaning, just because Walt Disney designed, lived and visited the park. The only one, at that, so Disneyland fans are prideful in that and they are A LOT more sensitive when it comes to negative things in the parks. I've noticed Disneyland fans almost take them as insults to not only themselves, but to Walt Disney, too. Being on these boards, I've noticed WDW fans are WAY more passive, don't really care as much and don't bring up Walt Disney's name as much either. Anytime something is wrong at the DLR, 99.9% of the time, someone will bring up Walt Disney and how he'd be turning in his grave, or something like that.

Interesting and not a view I am unfamiliar with. I do sense a strong feeling of 'ownership' people have in Anaheim because DL has been there for 57 years ... generations grew up on it and passed down the tradition. Hell, for its first quarter of a century there was either no other Disney park or only one new one in the FL swamps.

You'd think that after 41 years there would be similar in O-Town, but no one lived in Central Florida in the 70s other than some growers, cowboys ... oh and cows and gators, almost no one in the 80s either (relatively speaking) ... and many oldtimers left the area by the 90s when all the green space and orange groves began to get replaced by subdivisions, hotels and strip centers.

 

[Captain Neo]

I sometimes wonder if TDO execs do any actual real work or just hang out and snort cocaine all day and use their positions of power to get "favors" from teens and college students.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Anytime something is wrong at the DLR, 99.9% of the time, someone will bring up Walt Disney and how he'd be turning in his grave, or something like that.

You make it sound like that's a good thing...:lookaround:

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I sometimes wonder if TDO execs do any actual real work or just hang out and snort cocaine all day and use their positions of power to get "favors" from teens and college students.

You're thinking of wall st.

 

[WDW1974]

I don't think we are that far apart. I simply believe Avatarland will sink or swim on its own merits, not because of its association with a less than ideal property.

I think we'd all prefer a Carsland, or a Star Wars Land, or a Star Trek Land (Live long and prosper!) but, as you wrote, I suspect we're stuck with Avatarland because of someone's ego (either Iger or Staggs). I sometimes wonder if Iger is worried about his WDW legacy. He essentially inherited the few previous WDW projects that have actually been completed under his tenure, including FLE, and, in his mind, Iger thinks Avatarland is his chance to finally leave his own legacy at WDW. Financially, he should pull the plug on Avatarland now and go with a property he already owns (Can anyone say "Ewok Village"?) but at this point he's green-lit Avatarland and his ego won't let him back down.

I don't disagree that it could be his ego ... I recall how he barked at a fanboi last spring at the shareholders meeting when questioned.
But I also don't think WDW fits into his legacy at all. His only P&R legacy will opening up mainland China. If anyone mentions anything at all else it may be doubling the DCL capacity or 'fixing' DCA. WDW just won't even merit a mention.

FWIW, Iger's real legacy with the company will be acquistions: Pixar, Marvel, Lucas and anything down the road.

Meanwhile, I'd like to believe Cameron's ego won't let TDO do a half job of Avatarland. We're already worried that TDO is going to do a Carsland junior. With Lucas in semi-retirement and WDW owning the IP, I'm concerned TDO would end up doing a half job on a possible "Star Wars Land". Given today's TDO climate, maybe Avatarland is the best way to go for now. Let's get Carsland going at DHS and bring on Star War Land later when there's real leadership at TDO who wants to make sure it's a success. (I still shudder when I think what TDO might have done with Harry Potter.)

I honestly trust TDO as much as I trust Bernie Madoff (Uncle Bernie, I want my $600,000 back!) I get seemingly daily reports of attractions going down (including the new stuff) and attractions with broken/inop effects (including the new stuff) and I'm supposed to be excited that they'll have RFID scanners at the main gates for my next visit??!?! How much Pixie Dust are they smoking?

Regarding Al's article, I think it needed more facts and figures to give it some gravitas. Instead, it came across like a Sunday Op Ed piece that's forgotten by Monday morning.

I disagree. Al does opinon pieces. That's what he's good at. Sure, sometimes he'll toss in facts and figures, but opinion is what drives his success. And really what could he offer for his belief that Avatar is a huge misstep for WDW?

 

[WDW1974]

Cite? He never once said Burnank stepped in and demanded full treatment as far as I've seen

I don't cite. I'd say ask my pal jakeman, but he doesn't seem to post here anymore (not a huge loss).
I read it at some point and I know from my own sources that he was accurate.

 

[WDW1974]

You make it sound like that's a good thing...:lookaround:

True ... Walt probably wouldn't have an issue with Starbucks in his park.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Interesting and not a view I am unfamiliar with. I do sense a strong feeling of 'ownership' people have in Anaheim because DL has been there for 57 years ... generations grew up on it and passed down the tradition. Hell, for its first quarter of a century there was either no other Disney park or only one new one in the FL swamps.

DL was the only park for only a decade. Then America became aware that Walt envisioned something much grander in Florida. After this, DL was regarded as the old inferior little park. Walt and his audience wanted something bigger, something better.

For two out of its first three decades DL was considered clearly inferior to its superior successor in the Eastcoast. A local park, old. Somewhere in the eighties, I think, there was a reappraisal of DL. Its small scale now being judged 'quaint'. Meanwhile, gradually, the MK slowly lost many of the things that gave it a clear edge over DL for so long. And then in 2005 came the large shift. DL was now considered the best park, not the MK. Sad, because by birthright and decades of tradition the MK is the superior park.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

True ... Walt probably wouldn't have an issue with Starbucks in his park.

True dat!

That's why 'what would Walt have done' is not the best guideline, half a century after his demise. There would still be no unions and only blond Aryans allowed to work in Fantasyland.

 

[John]

Yeah the 3D and ticket prices makes a big difference. But it was still such a marvel to look at. The immersive 3D... if you can do that in an environment and also a ride, then it's going to be pretty amazing.

Though I do agree about the characters. Don't forget there are 2(?) more Avatar movies coming. They could go either way in helping the AvatarLand cause (or further hurting it).

My argument in this or the other thread was that the weakness of the IP could be a strength because it wouldn't overshadow the park's brand or message, like Harry Potter did to IoA.

Do you really think that Uni cares if HP "over shadows the parks brand"...it literally put them back in the game. It brings in huge dollars. Without HP we hardly would be talking about Uni....I think they would take that trade off anyday.

 

[Californian Elitist]

DL was the only park for only a decade.

Try sixteen years.

 

[Californian Elitist]

You'd think that after 41 years there would be similar in O-Town...

EXACTLY.

I find the differences between the fanbases VERY interesting.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Try sixteen years.

The only park in the public imagination, in public awareness. This changed back when Walt was still alive and informed America that he had outgrown DL.

DL was relegated the status of obsolete sandbox version of the real thing in little more than a decade.

 

[WDW1974]

DL was the only park for only a decade. Then America became aware that Walt envisioned something much grander in Florida. After this, DL was regarded as the old inferior little park. Walt and his audience wanted something bigger, something better.

So for two out of its first three decades DL was considered clearly inferior to its superior predecessor in the Eastcoast. A local park, old. Somewhere in the eighties, I think, there was a reappraisal of DL. Its small scale now being judged 'quaint'. Meanwhile, gradually, the MK slowly lost many of the things that gave it a clear edge over DL for so long. And then in 2005 came the large shift. DL was now considered the best park, not the MK. Sad, because by birthright and decades of tradition the MK is the superior park.

Ah, so you wanna make this another DL vs. WDW thread and lather folks up? You need the attention that badly?

I don't think DL was ever regarded as an inferior park, simply a smaller one that wasn't part of a resort. But your language leaves open the possibility of 96 posts before 8 a.m. Eastern time. I honestly can't think of a time that DL was viewed as inferior to the MK (maybe when Space Mountain opened ... for all of two years until it opened where it was originally intended to open fist).

I know my first visit to DL was in 1990 and the MK was about at the height of being as good as it could be and DL still was a much better park with more to see and do.

I do love your last sentence though. You are great at playing the drama queen card.