Al Lutz: "Management must stop bending over to pick up pennies as dollars fly over their heads"

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
The only park in the public imagination, in public awareness. This changed back when Wlat was still alive and informed America that he had outgrown DL.

DL was relegated the status of obsolete sandbox version of the real thing in little more than a decade.

LOL, the real thing? The real thing had already been built SIXTEEN YEARS prior to Magic Kingdom. There was no sign of any other Disney park in 1967. That's like saying at the moment two Wizarding World of Harry Potters exist in the US. Sure there's one in development but as of right now, there's only one place you can go to experience Potter.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
The only park in the public imagination, in public awareness. This changed back when Wlat was still alive and informed America that he had outgrown DL.

DL was relegated the status of obsolete sandbox version of the real thing in little more than a decade.

Have fun, Empress.

I'd rather play with myself (in my own sandbox) than play with you. I'm sure you'll have other dance partners.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Ah, so you wanna make this another DL vs. WDW thread and lather folks up? You need the attention that badly?
Excuse me? May I remind you that I am replying to your conversation about DL vs. WDW? :confused:

WDW doesn't have the same meaning to its fanbase as DLR does to its base. Don't know if it's history ... if it's size ... if it's just plain having less discerning visitors ... but there's a disconnect.
I think it's the history. While both Disneyland and WDW have great backstories, I would argue Disneyland's history clearly has more substance and even more meaning, just because Walt Disney designed, lived and visited the park. The only one, at that, so Disneyland fans are prideful in that and they are A LOT more sensitive when it comes to negative things in the parks. I've noticed Disneyland fans almost take them as insults to not only themselves, but to Walt Disney, too. Being on these boards, I've noticed WDW fans are WAY more passive, don't really care as much and don't bring up Walt Disney's name as much either. Anytime something is wrong at the DLR, 99.9% of the time, someone will bring up Walt Disney and how he'd be turning in his grave, or something like that.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Have fun, Empress.

I'd rather play with myself (in my own sandbox) than play with you. I'm sure you'll have other dance partners.
Oh, come on now. Don't behave like a hurt fan because somebody differs in opinion about your favourite park.

I'm not sure I can find them, but let me try to find some late sixties quotes that describe the eager anticipation about the Walt Disney Company taking LA's 'land' and turning that into an entire 'world' on the eastcoast. So exciting! Such a vast and bold enterprise! "Who could ever visit the Westcoast park again, except locals"?

And once WDW was build, as shiny new things go, they tend to make the old version feel obsolete. As was the case in public perception of DL and WDW in the seventies. I'm afraid no amount of playful jokes are going to rewrite history.
journal.gif
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
LOL, the real thing? The real thing had already been built SIXTEEN YEARS prior to Magic Kingdom. There was no sign of any other Disney park in 1967. That's like saying at the moment two Wizarding World of Harry Potters exist in the US. Sure there's one in development but as of right now, there's only one place you can go to experience Potter.
They are as yet unbuild, but the excited anticipation about the upcoming UNI projects make WDW look stale and outdated. To witness the effect in action of unbuild attractions making the existing ones look inferior one needs but read half a dozen threads on the frontpage of this very subforum.

Imagine DL announcing it is going to copy-paste DisneySea into the Strawberry plot in Anaheim. This would instantly make the eastcoast parks look inferior in the public imagination.

I'm not sure you are ahead, sorry. In fact, may I express my regret at the less than examplary respect you and Spirit show your conversation partner.
 

Calvin Coolidge

Well-Known Member
So....circling back...I think Lutz brings up a number of interesting points about Avatar in DAK.

Animal Kingdom is probably my favorite of the parks, even though it has obvious and major blemishes. I can't help but feel like Avatar Land would just exacerbate the park's problems instead of fixing them. I think the future of DAK lies in replicating the parts of the park that are most successful, which is to say that the focus should be kept on creating immersive themed environments which explore the relationship between Man and Nature. I worry that Avatar strays too far from this model, and that the result would be something disruptive to the DAK experience. I realize that DAK is not a zoo (or NAtAzU or whatever) but the animal exhibits are a big part of what makes the park special.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
The excitement about the upcoming UNI projects make WDW look stale and outdated. One needs but read half a dozen threads on the frontpage of this very subforum.

Imagine DL announcing it is going to copy-paste DisneySea into the Strawberry plot in Anaheim. This would instantly make the eastcoast parks look inferior in the public imagination.

I'm not sure you are ahead.

Oh, I'm definitely ahead. Wait a second, what does your statement have anything to do with the sixteen year gap, that for some reason you're claiming to be a ten year gap, between Disneyland and Magic Kingdom? That's what I'm trying to figure out.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
Epcot to me had always been the huge draw that made WDW really stand out and challenge Disneyland's potential as a theme park. That is to say the version that existed before the butchering that happened in the mid-late 90's. Classic Epcot was and remains a contender for my favorite place on earth. Magic Kingdom is certainly not a bad park on its own (I do love the place), but objectively speaking it's one of the weakest versions of the Disneyland style park, even at its pinnacle. That's not to say it's unable to be the best or stand among the best, I fully believe it could with better heads to allow it its full potential (there's still massive untapped potential just waiting to be taken advantage of by leaders who aren't morons). But even early on it seems to have had serious roadblocks that held it back (what they did to Pirates of the Caribbean being a good example, not a fan of how Fantasyland was laid out in regards to Small World's placement either).

I don't mean to stir any sort of DL vs WDW debate, but logically I feel WDW SHOULD be receiving some of the most amount of attention from the leadership. I don't mean that as a WDW fan trying to spite Disneyland by any means (though I am a WDW fan at heart). It's just that the sheer size of the property and the amount of effort put into making it a massive vacation destination with tons of resort and such, it's only natural to expect that Disney focus on making the parks themselves the "best" that they can be. Especially given how much money it has proven itself capable of making for the company. There is no excuse at the very least for WDW to be in the state it's in now (dead last in terms of maintenance and new substantial attractions compared to all other Disney parks around the world). I think all Disney parks should be pushed to their maximum potential, and I still see WDW as having the most untapped potential.

It basically goes back to the point many have made here- The primary draw of WDW isn't the hotels, it's the parks and attractions. And because they've tried so hard to create this massive resort complex with tons of hotels and timeshare properties (not to mention multiple housing communities), people expect massive things from the parks (rightly so). It is incredibly stupid and a sign of ignorance that the parks are seen as some sort of "necessary evil" by Disney as I believe several insiders have confirmed. The parks are the only reason anyone stays at those resorts.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Oh, I'm definitely ahead. Wait a second, what does your statement have anything to do with the sixteen year gap, that for some reason you're claiming to be a ten year gap, between Disneyland and Magic Kingdom? That's what I'm trying to figure out.
I'm talking about the point where Disney went public with his plan to build another resort, on the Eastcoast, on a vastly larger scale.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
I'm talking about the point where Disney went public with his plan to build another resort, on the Eastcoast, on a vastly larger scale.

Well I'm talking about physical Disney parks and their chronological time periods. There's the problem. But you claiming Disneyland being an "obsolete sandbox" is ludicrous. That "obsolete sandbox" was Walt Disney's greatest achievement.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
By 1966 Walt's greatest achievement was thought to be the upcoming Florida Project. Even his untimely demise was not thought to diminish this, his greatest dream.

It was Walt himself who - quite deliberatly - created the public impression of DL being the sandbox version of something far grander.

Not much however was build as he had planned, and what was build was never taken lovingly care of after the early eighties. Which slowly created a shift in public perception again, to the point where nowadays DL is considered the superior park, and 'Walt's park'.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
By 1966 Walt's greatest achievement was thought to be the upcoming Florida Project. Even his untimely demise was not thought to diminish this, his greatest dream.

It was Walt himself who - quite deliberatly - created the public impression of DL being the sandbox version of something far grander.

Not much however was build as he had planned, and what was build was never taken lovingly care of after the early eighties. Which slowly created a shift in public perception again, to the point where nowadays DL is considered the superior park, and 'Walt's park'.

What the...? Disneyland has always been considered Walt's park, he designed, lived in and visited the darn place for Pete's sake. Disneyland is considered superior in a lot of people's eyes just for that fact. There are many Disney parks, but only one has the light in the fire station window on Main Street.

*sigh* I'm done. Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting here. Good job.
 

andre85

Well-Known Member
I don't cite. I'd say ask my pal jakeman, but he doesn't seem to post here anymore (not a huge loss).
I read it at some point and I know from my own sources that he was accurate.

That's a weird policy to have. I read every article on that site and I never once saw him recant or provide an update on anything related.

I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
What the...? Disneyland has always been considered Walt's park, he designed, lived in and visited the darn place for Pete's sake. Disneyland is considered superior in a lot of people's eyes just for that fact. There are many Disney parks, but only one has the light in the fire station window on Main Street.

*sigh* I'm done. Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting here. Good job.
You and I usually get along really well, and I have a lot of respect for you (still will and I hope what i'm about to say doesn't offend you or anything). But let me ask you a question- Do you think that had Walt Disney still been alive to see WDW completed, that he wouldn't have visited and lived at the Florida property all the time (possibly even more than Disneyland)? I don't usually like to make assumptions but I think it's perfectly fair to assume that he most definitely would have.

The fact is that while Disneyland is the original, the one Walt walked and lived in, that's not the reason it's better than Magic Kingdom. At least not to me. It's better than Magic Kingdom because it has more attractions, superior versions of attractions it shares with MK (exceptions being Pooh and Splash when at their best), and not to mention it's currently being treated respectfully by the management team in charge. What if the opposite had been true though and MK had been Walt's original park and Disneyland the one built after he died? But at the same time both parks were still in the same exact physical condition they are in now (attraction roster, maintenance quality, etc). Myself at least, i'd consider Disneyland the superior park, regardless of whether Walt had walked, designed, and lived in it.

There are more than enough logical and valid reasons to prefer DL over MK, those are what should be taken into consideration for argument about what park is better. Just like how if one ride is cloned for another park, i'm not going to care if one is the original, i'm only going to care which is objectively the better ride (Paris has the best version of Pirates of the Caribbean despite being the newest). If a ride is both older AND better then yes it's superior, but being the original really has nothing to do with WHY it's better.

Much of what made Disneyland so great was Walt's imagineers, not just Walt himself. Many of them continued designing attractions for Disneyland and other parks long after he died, some very arguably more ambitious and incredible than what Walt himself did (the original rides in Epcot's Future World especially, plus Disneyland Paris and DisneySea). And I don't consider these attractions any less amazing just because they're newer and Walt himself didn't have much of a hand in them.

Nostalgia is fine and can make one feel all warm and fuzzy. But it shouldn't exist as the defining reason why one product is superior to another. The inherent and objective quality is the only thing i'd take into account here, and DL wins against MK in that regard. I definitely don't think that anything should be held against WDW just because it wasn't walked and lived in by Disney himself (there are plenty of legit gripes about the place).

Overall though i'd really just like every Disney park on earth to be treated with the utmost respect and quality that Disney himself stood for (quality I hear still exists at parks other than WDW). That's how it should be, though it will never happen at this rate.
 

Longhairbear

Well-Known Member
By 1966 Walt's greatest achievement was thought to be the upcoming Florida Project. Even his untimely demise was not thought to diminish this, his greatest dream.

It was Walt himself who - quite deliberatly - created the public impression of DL being the sandbox version of something far grander.

Not much however was build as he had planned, and what was build was never taken lovingly care of after the early eighties. Which slowly created a shift in public perception again, to the point where nowadays DL is considered the superior park, and 'Walt's park'.
I grew up on the east coast, and WDW was always considered as second best to the real thing in California. I'm sorry to tell you that, but that is what the general perception was at the time. As kids we knew that our parents could not afford to take us to the real thing in California, and WDW was the next best thing as it was a copy of what was out in California. In reality that may or may not have been true, but in the North East that was the common thought.
My uncle had home movies on 8mm he took on a business trip to DL, and when shown to us kids, we all wanted to go to DL, not the fake version in FLA. Again, sorry, but that was the perception at the time. Only when EPCOT opened did WDW get some cred. All of a sudden WDW was the place to go, because of EPCOT. Everyone went to FLA because it was easier and cheaper to get to. But everyone knew in their hearts that someday they would get to DL to see the real park, not the copy. And you know what? I went to WDW first, but was more thrilled to visit the original in CA much later in my life.
In short, I am a child of the 1960's. I know what I know, and how it's all transpired. To me, and many of my generation, WDW is and always will be the fake version of Disneyland. It is what it is in my mind. I can't change that. But I'm a DVC member so that I can enjoy WDW to it's fullest potential for my needs. I'm loving it, but I still know in the back of my mind that it's a fake copy of the original.
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
Al could never do for WDW what he has done for DL unless he decided to up and relocate to central FL for a couple of years. I respect and appreciate his comments on the matter (biased or not towards his own resort), but the one who mentioned that there are 50 Pixiedust Snorters for every 1 Realist is absolutely true. And when you have those realists spread across thousands of miles and dozens of countries versus DL's mostly within a 3 hr drive fanbase, it's very hard for WDW fans to rally anything.

This stuff really is cyclical isn't it? Every 6 months some people say "hey, wouldn't it be great if WDW fans could rally together?" as if we haven't tried repeatedly. At this point I'd rather just have a drink with Tom, Daniel, and Spirit somewhere at a bar in Epcot (are cocktails over the $8.00 mark yet?) than try it a 3rd time.

And if hotel occupancy is really so far off, why won't they just lower the damn prices already? I'll stay a week at the Wilderness Lodge if I could get it for $150/night again!
 

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