Disney(World) vs. Disney(land)?

[RunnerEd]

'74, Lee, and other insiders, first and foremost, thanks for sharing your insights. It's great reading and shows the potential for positives down the road. One question, if I may. Will the long standing, much _itched about maintenance issues at WDW be addressed (Yeti, Splash and their cousins) as part of this new "Old Time Disney Religion" kick that they seem to be on? To me, it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend tons of money on new stuff when you don't keep your old, good stuff working properly to begin with. Thanks gentlemen!

 

[Taylor]

So 74 are you comfortable enough that the rest of the information that you were talking about earlier could be accurate that you could post more please If not I completely understand.




Edit: I mean about the new additions you were talking about

 

[IWant2GoNow]

You may believe the numbers will go up once the FL project is done, but I don't.

Of lesser import, but equally interesting is that neither TDO nor Burbank think it will either ... hence the panic, hence the desire to poach parts of DCA, hence Kathy Mangum's new job, hence all the cutbacks that have already started.

I believe in small increases, yes. But nothing major. However, what scares me is if the old WDW way saw increases, ANY increases they would slap their hands together & say "Job well done". This simply cannot happen if they want to see long term results of guests emptying their pockets for first time & repeat visits.

Don't get me wrong, as much as I am excited for FLE, I hope it fails miserably.

 

[marni1971]

The FLE is just the foundation for the future of the MK IMO. It was never meant to be a Potter Swatter. Of course they can't shut down the MK to give it an "Extreme Makeover" (see what I did there) but I sincerely believe this is a continuation of a well thought out process.

The opening of the FLE will allow them to continue to fix attractions that were neglected for far too long. Such as they did with the HoP, the Haunted Mansion (and Liberty Square), BTMRR, The Tiki, Tiki, Tiki Room, the Castle and all of MSUSA.

Hmmmm, I wonder what is next? After CBJ.

The Potter Swatters were cancelled. We know that. The MKs swatter, Space Mountains refurb, was watered down and hacked away beyond belief. We should have gotten the worlds best indoor roller coaster. We got duct tape on a 1975 ride. Mermaid indeed wasn't a Potter retaliation. But it is 13 months late, originally being planned for WDWs 40th but having (again) a lack of funding.

BTM is a good topic. It was going to be ripped out and rebuilt 2 years ago. The track is in as bad a shape as the original in DL. But no, we got more duct tape and make do, whilst DLs version again gets the full makeover.

Next? It HAS to be the JC. It has been falling apart for over 4 years now. The HOP bumped it. Then SM. Then the HM. The basin leaks. The dock was replaced since it was literally falling apart. It was a H&S hazard. The poor E Ticket has been neglected beyond belief with the bare minimum done to it. The same could be said for Splash. But thats another topic.

And everythings okay in the world?

 

[DisneyFan 2000]

Don't worry marni, this has to be Iger's master plan. Otherwise why let the place rot, right?
I too am curious as to how day-to-day operations might shift, because honestly a brand new state-of-the-art ride that has a 2 year expiration date is almost as bad as getting nothing new at all!

 

[alissafalco]

speaking of copies, I know that the little mermaid ride is the same in NFE as it is in DCA but i hope that the imagineers adressed some problems and added a few different things instead of being lazy and just completely having the same ride. Where is the imagination? Budgets and quick construction seems to be the only guidelines lately to these new attractions at all disney parks. I am aware that disney is a business and money and time matter but so do quality, technology, and creativity. Its things like this that I think would make Walt unhappy. And at the end of the day isnt what walt originally intended what the imagineers should be doing?

I know, like the Ursula cut out and repeating AA's.

 

[FrankLapidus]

Different time, different era. They cloned a lot of attractions because MK was mostly designed just after Walt had passed away. Imagine what you would do differently if your founder and greatest mind had just passed on, probably not a whole lot. They DID make those attractions bigger/longer though.

True but I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing to clone attractions between parks in certain cases. Like you said, perhaps the WDW version will be improved upon by the Imagineers and differ slightly from the DL attraction. I do get what you're saying though.

 

[alissafalco]

People WILL pat rack rate IF they have no other option and Disney provides a product worthy of it ... ya know, like they once did. But Disney may well have to change its rates at some point. Moderate motels that I regularly stayed at for under $85 a night well into the 2004-2006 timeframe just can't have prices approaching $300. That's effing insane ... just like fact that a room at POP would ever be over $100 a night.

But people do have many other options. There are so many off site hotels to stay in. As much as I'd prefer to stay on site, all that these price increases are doing is forcing me to stay off site. If that's what it has to come to for me to get to WDW then so be it....and just like the fact that a suite at AoA costs $350 a night

 

[FrankLapidus]

There is plenty of land at MK ... more land than they'll need for the next 40 years at this rate.

And for those who think a Phase II will ever happen, please tell me when one ever did (no, Horizons and Living Seas don't really count because those were coming before EC opened ... same with Asia at DAK etc)

You give some small hope with the first paragraph, then swiftly take it away with the second . Reality is a bitter pill to swallow when it comes to WDW these days.

 

[Jeff456]

Exciting news.. fingers crossed you're right!

 

[montyz81]

That sun hovering on the horizon of central Florida is a sunrise not a sunset.

If only it was on hovering over Horizons!!!!

 

[jt04]

The Potter Swatters were cancelled. We know that. The MKs swatter, Space Mountains refurb, was watered down and hacked away beyond belief. We should have gotten the worlds best indoor roller coaster. We got duct tape on a 1975 ride. Mermaid indeed wasn't a Potter retaliation. But it is 13 months late, originally being planned for WDWs 40th but having (again) a lack of funding.

BTM is a good topic. It was going to be ripped out and rebuilt 2 years ago. The track is in as bad a shape as the original in DL. But no, we got more duct tape and make do, whilst DLs version again gets the full makeover.

Next? It HAS to be the JC. It has been falling apart for over 4 years now. The HOP bumped it. Then SM. Then the HM. The basin leaks. The dock was replaced since it was literally falling apart. It was a H&S hazard. The poor E Ticket has been neglected beyond belief with the bare minimum done to it. The same could be said for Splash. But thats another topic.

And everythings okay in the world?

For all the problems at the MK there are far fewer than there were just a few years ago. They need the capacity of the FLE to get to the other issues. Everything is happening in the order it has to happen to keep operations and more importantly the guest satisfied.

The MK was a disaster 8 years ago and is now coming back. As I mentioned they could not just close the park. In some sense it has been like DCA 2.0 in that so much of the work had to be done on an operating park (the busuiest in the world) while having as little impact on guests as possible. I give them all the credit in the world.

TomorrowLand has become very very interesting to me. Notice how all the work at the MK has slowly encircled T-Land. It has received very little attention except for a bit of paint the skyway removal and that Stitch stage which likely did not originate from Burbank.

Space Mountain 2.0 could have been canceled for a couple reason. Firstly, management and park ops knew the dire shape the MK was in and that they would need to take attractions down for long periods of time. I'd suggest they decided to stay with the current ride system becuse they knew they would need the capacity while so many other systems were down for lengthy periods.

Secondly, I think the TL makeovers have been under consideration for awhile. It is possible that the mega-SM was determined not to be a good fit for the MK's more family frienly aesthetics. WDW, unlike DL, has the luxury of skewing offerings at their parks to appeal more to different demographics. That does not mean they would give up on the "something for everyone" model. But it may mean they would rather a coaster at the MK be more like the new Mine Train coaster which is family friendly rather than the more thrilling DL type version of SM which has a limiting height requirement.

Bottom line is I think both T-Lands in the states are being targeted for radical makeovers although the actual content will likely be tailored to the needs of each park. And places like the Studios and DAK will recieve more of the 'thrill' budgets. That is my theory and I am sticking to it.

PS- perhaps someone will remind a certain spirit that I never said I was leaving. I said I just will not spend time debating him. It is pointless anyway as he is a pod person. Heh.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Space Mountain 2.0 could have been canceled for a couple reason. Firstly, management and park ops knew the dire shape the MK was in and that they would need to take attractions down for long periods of time. I'd suggest they decided to stay with the current ride system becuse they knew they would need the capacity while so many other systems were down for lengthy periods.

Secondly, I think the TL makeovers have been under consideration for awhile. It is possible that the mega-SM was determined not to be a good fit for the MK's more family frienly aesthetics. WDW, unlike DL, has the luxury of skewing offerings at their parks to appeal more to different demographics. That does not mean they would give up on the "something for everyone" model. But it may mean they would rather a coaster at the MK be more like the new Mine Train coaster which is family friendly rather than the more thrilling DL type version of SM which has a limiting height requirement.

When the SM refurb was announced and it was learned that it was severely downsized from a full-blown rebuild and re-imagine to a basic "spit-and-polish", you told us all that you were sure it was because they had taken money from the SM project to dump into the FL project (which has had it's budget CUT from initial estimates given by Disney, NOT increased at all).

Now, with your constant revisionist history mindset, they just didn't want to close it because of capacity, and they didn't want to change the height requirement???

You know... I think your suggestion that you need to spend more time with football is a FABULOUS idea.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Space Mountain 2.0 could have been canceled for a couple reason. Firstly, management and park ops knew the dire shape the MK was in and that they would need to take attractions down for long periods of time. I'd suggest they decided to stay with the current ride system becuse they knew they would need the capacity while so many other systems were down for lengthy periods.

Secondly, I think the TL makeovers have been under consideration for awhile. It is possible that the mega-SM was determined not to be a good fit for the MK's more family frienly aesthetics. WDW, unlike DL, has the luxury of skewing offerings at their parks to appeal more to different demographics. That does not mean they would give up on the "something for everyone" model. But it may mean they would rather a coaster at the MK be more like the new Mine Train coaster which is family friendly rather than the more thrilling DL type version of SM which has a limiting height requirement.

It's slow at the office today, and I've got nothing better to do... So let's take a few minutes to review the history of jt, shall we?

Here's a nice litte gem, full of his predictions... Literally every single one, DEAD ON (this, by the way, is my favorite of the ones I've found so far!!):

"AI is strong in reviews despite the false claims of Yee and others, SM is getting a refurb far beyond what the cynics were claiming, work contiues on MI, new show for Stitch in TL (and the implications that has for SGE). The closing of CMM continues (and the implications of that)."
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/not-good-news-for-wdw.391532/page-3#post-3311437

Here's a fun one about Space Mountain directly... In which he says:

"not only do I think it is the defining attraction at the MK but WDW and at least for now, the defining attraction for all Disney parks. If they had done a poor job on the MK's SM it would have been the greatest blunder ever at a Disney Park even surpassing the mistakes made originally at DCA. It is a great relief to know they are probably going to do this right."
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/breaking-news-space-mountain-rehab.400131/page-4#post-3349047

Here's a REAL laugher!!!! I'll let your words speak for themselves...

"Just realized what may be going on. Disney seems to be timing the new Space Mountain to the opening of TWWoHP. Could be an interesting competition!:king: "

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/breaking-news-space-mountain-rehab.400131/page-14#post-3353880


Which was then followed up by all the ridiculous talk of what was done with SM as being a "prefurb", which you thought was going to be followed by a proper rebuild (this was in mid 2009).

Then there's the posts where when others were worried about MK capacity, you said it wasn't a concern, because they could push them to RnR or E:E (this goes directly against what you just said in your post I quoted above).

Or to quote you from another post: "It seems to me they are doing refurbs. I agree with you though that management has to stop worrrying about closing attractions for refurbs. There are tons of options on property. "

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...tate-of-the-parks.440383/page-30#post-3598546

Here's one of your comments directly tying SM's botched refurb and its money to FLE:

"We just don't know that yet. ES has changed my viewpoint on SM when he informed us less than 20% of MK's guests go on the ride. Rather than looking at SM as being done "on the cheap", perhaps Disney has decided those dollars are better spent elsewhere. Like Fantasyland."

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...this-mean-for-wdw.468640/page-41#post-3689820

A-HA! The smoking gun:

"See I think the claim the budgets were not related is not true. Lasseter said FL has been being planned for a long time.

I'm convinced we didn't get the rumored "Lee" SM because the budget was redirected to the expansion of the Magic Kingdom and the new FL.

And the cheers that were heard when the SM project were announced secretly to those who needed to know might have been for the new FL rather than the SM project. Possibly."

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...important-sm-news.494182/page-16#post-3767569

There are FAR more... I just picked a handful. Shall I go on?

Everything you say ends up being spun later... BY YOU. That's what's so funny. You do it to yourself. I picture you sitting at home as John Lovitz in a smoking jacket constantly saying "Yeah!!! THAT'S the ticket!!!" Your constant back and forth makes virtually everything you say easy to dismiss. Yet you either have no idea you do it (which would be sad), or refuse to admit that you realize you do it (which is much more likely, and ALSO sad).

Also... A word to the wise... NONE OF YOU SHOULD GO BACK AND READ THE PROGRESSION OF THE SM REFURB. The whole thing goes from optimistic and happy to insiders sharing the massive cutbacks, to the depression of the reveal. It ain't pretty.

 

[montyz81]

It's slow at the office today, and I've got nothing better to do... So let's take a few minutes to review the history of jt, shall we?

Here's a nice litte gem, full of his predictions... Literally every single one, DEAD ON (this, by the way, is my favorite of the ones I've found so far!!):

"AI is strong in reviews despite the false claims of Yee and others, SM is getting a refurb far beyond what the cynics were claiming, work contiues on MI, new show for Stitch in TL (and the implications that has for SGE). The closing of CMM continues (and the implications of that)."
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/not-good-news-for-wdw.391532/page-3#post-3311437

Here's a fun one about Space Mountain directly... In which he says:

"not only do I think it is the defining attraction at the MK but WDW and at least for now, the defining attraction for all Disney parks. If they had done a poor job on the MK's SM it would have been the greatest blunder ever at a Disney Park even surpassing the mistakes made originally at DCA. It is a great relief to know they are probably going to do this right."
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/breaking-news-space-mountain-rehab.400131/page-4#post-3349047

Here's a REAL laugher!!!! I'll let your words speak for themselves...

"Just realized what may be going on. Disney seems to be timing the new Space Mountain to the opening of TWWoHP. Could be an interesting competition!:king: "

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/breaking-news-space-mountain-rehab.400131/page-14#post-3353880


Which was then followed up by all the ridiculous talk of what was done with SM as being a "prefurb", which you thought was going to be followed by a proper rebuild (this was in mid 2009).

Then there's the posts where when others were worried about MK capacity, you said it wasn't a concern, because they could push them to RnR or E:E (this goes directly against what you just said in your post I quoted above).

Or to quote you from another post: "It seems to me they are doing refurbs. I agree with you though that management has to stop worrrying about closing attractions for refurbs. There are tons of options on property. "

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...tate-of-the-parks.440383/page-30#post-3598546

Here's one of your comments directly tying SM's botched refurb and its money to FLE:

"We just don't know that yet. ES has changed my viewpoint on SM when he informed us less than 20% of MK's guests go on the ride. Rather than looking at SM as being done "on the cheap", perhaps Disney has decided those dollars are better spent elsewhere. Like Fantasyland."

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...this-mean-for-wdw.468640/page-41#post-3689820

A-HA! The smoking gun:

"See I think the claim the budgets were not related is not true. Lasseter said FL has been being planned for a long time.

I'm convinced we didn't get the rumored "Lee" SM because the budget was redirected to the expansion of the Magic Kingdom and the new FL.

And the cheers that were heard when the SM project were announced secretly to those who needed to know might have been for the new FL rather than the SM project. Possibly."

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...important-sm-news.494182/page-16#post-3767569

There are FAR more... I just picked a handful. Shall I go on?

Everything you say ends up being spun later... BY YOU. That's what's so funny. You do it to yourself. I picture you sitting at home as John Lovitz in a smoking jacket constantly saying "Yeah!!! THAT'S the ticket!!!" Your constant back and forth makes virtually everything you say easy to dismiss. Yet you either have no idea you do it (which would be sad), or refuse to admit that you realize you do it (which is much more likely, and ALSO sad).

Also... A word to the wise... NONE OF YOU SHOULD GO BACK AND READ THE PROGRESSION OF THE SM REFURB. The whole thing goes from optimistic and happy to insiders sharing the massive cutbacks, to the depression of the reveal. It ain't pretty.

You guys going to let Disney get between your friendship? hahahaha

 

[marni1971]

Space Mountain 2.0 could have been canceled for a couple reason. Firstly, management and park ops knew the dire shape the MK was in and that they would need to take attractions down for long periods of time. I'd suggest they decided to stay with the current ride system becuse they knew they would need the capacity

We know why SMs refurb turned into a shambles. Phil Holmes. It was said then and I'll say it again.

The mess of the overhaul is part reason Burbank now has more control over Orlando. It woke them up to how bad things were being run.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

JT in talking bollocks shocker. Whod have thunk it.

 

[TimeTrip]

It's slow at the office today, and I've got nothing better to do... So let's take a few minutes to review the history of jt, shall we?
... awesome post about flip-flopping opinions and such ...

Don't worry, I'm sure all that evidence will be spun in a way so that the true-at-this-moment reasoning was buried in between his lines all along. Or maybe that he was misled. Or there was some reason that made him change his opinion publicly, but that privately he was always spot on.

 

[vonpluto]

I was talking to a dear friend earlier today (who I miss a lot!) about the old days of the RADP newsgroup and how great it with unmoderated chat and how back then a much younger (and different Spirit) posted about the problems he was starting to notice at WDW. This was still when things were quite good, the mid-1990s. And how the apologists were already out, when Disney totally was ignoring this new medium. There was one dude called 'Bicker' (Brian Charles Kohn -- no private info being given, he used his name and was quite proud and it's out there today) who defended every move TDO made in the same vein of a JT today. And it was quite obvious he thought if kept doing this that TDO was gonna contact him and give him a junior exec job for $90K a year (they still don't pay that!) ...

Dang Spirit, now you've got me sifting my gray matter trying to figure out your screen name on RADP back in the day!

BTW, interresting RADP post back on 6/22 by a WDI type:
"10 big-budget projects green-lit (2 for DL and 8 for WDW)"

 

[Buried20KLeague]

JT in talking bollocks shocker. Whod have thunk it.

I know, I know. But sometimes it's fun to catch him red-handed.