Disney(World) vs. Disney(land)?

[FrankLapidus]

Personally, I don't really mind the dark rides being shared between parks. When WDW opened, it did so with Snow White's Scary Adventures, Peter Pan's Flight and Mr. Toad's Wild Ride which had all proven successful at Disneyland and it's a good way of keeping the classic animated Disney film's a part of the parks. I'm disappointed that the SWSA building isn't being remodeled into a dark ride based another WDAS film rather than another M&G to compensate for the ones that were eliminated from the original plan for the FLE; a Tangled or a Sleeping Beauty attraction would have been a great way to use that space IMO.

 

[TalkingHead]

This is one of those things that it is best to let speak for itself. Like watching Michael Jordan at his peak; did we really need the commentators? The FLE will speak for itself by the crowds it attracts and the praise of the people.

But since you insist.....

I would refer you to the the Fantasyland sub-forum. Steve has posted a brand new set of aerial photos. They speak for themselves. And I expect (just my theory) that the entire MK will get this treatment over time. But back to the FLE. Do yourself a favor and read the entire thread. You will see many posters who do not engage in the cynical need to bash everything that happens at WDW. What you see are posters that just enjoy WDW for the most part. You can't help but identify with their genuine excitement. This will be the same reaction the average guest will have especially those who are not really aware of this massive new area. It will be stunning to them and even moreso at night.

Now our resident cynics will break it down into something like, "it is only a borderline d ticket and a bad restaurant and a few m&g's". That is such a grotesque oversimplification that those spewing it should be held in contempt by anyone with any sense at all. Don't fall victim to these cynics and their bitter manipulations. You must be better than that.

I don't see your average, non-Disney fanatic making a special trip to WDW to see FLE.

What's the major draw?

What's the attraction Disney can promote in commercials and TV specials?

There's no hook.

And Ariel ain't Harry Potter.

 

[Adam5897]

Personally, I don't really mind the dark rides being shared between parks. When WDW opened, it did so with Snow White's Scary Adventures, Peter Pan's Flight and Mr. Toad's Wild Ride which had all proven successful at Disneyland and it's a good way of keeping the classic animated Disney film's a part of the parks. I'm disappointed that the SWSA building isn't being remodeled into a dark ride based another WDAS film rather than another M&G to compensate for the ones that were eliminated from the original plan for the FLE; a Tangled or a Sleeping Beauty attraction would have been a great way to use that space IMO.

I agree with sharing dark rides but their are some things in little mermaid at DCA that look terrible.(under the sea and at the ending is kind of thrown together) And for disney to not fix those problems when opening a brand new version of it is insane its like no one cares anymore. I hope the rumors of the MK version having an extra scene is true

 

[bstiles]

I was under the impression that FLE was supposed to help handle the crowds better, since they closed and shuttered so many eateries and shops for the last plus decade. FLE will be busting at the seams and the rest of MK will feel empty?

 

[Master Yoda]

They were over confident. Their belief was that they could run promotions (Celebrate Today! Memories!) and use the heavy nostalgia factor that WDW has to weather any storm or overcome anything Uni threw at them.
They were wrong. Uni's success has surpassed TDO's projections while WDW's numbers are down in every metric from room occupancy to guest spend to guest satisfaction.

This change, if it really even is one, comes from TDO realizing that their game of smoke and mirrors has started to fail. When promotions, "discounts", "free" dining and a Fantasyland expansion aren't drawing the numbers they need....it's panic time. Because they've been doing it so long, many of them don't know another way. Naturally, their first inclination is to look west and try to copy what is working out there.

A potential problem I see is how are they going to reverse what they have done for the last decade plus. And they will have to at some point. Stop discounting rooms, end the free and discounted dining, and build attractions instead of trying to sell "Magic" and memories. Gonna be a painful process.

I doubt they will ever stop this practice. I feel that is particular smoke and mirror practice that will always work. People today are conditioned to look for a discount. They will raise rack rates to an even more obscene level and then discounted rates will come in at what ever profit margin they decide is acceptable. People will think they are getting a deal when they really are not.

 

[devoy1701]

Yeah, at some point, they'd have to come out with a "Remember the Memories of Your Magical Memories--Again!" campaign, I was thinking.

At some point, if they put up a fight, though, and the numbers aren't there, "but, but . . " will cease
to be an excuse, and some heads will roll, right?

Maybe the only reason they haven't is because all the Parks and Resorts are rolled together, covering
up the decline to the shareholders.

I'll tell ya what, my fingers are mighty crossed . . .

It shouldnt matter if the decline is "covered" and hidden from the shareholders. There are so many levels and chances for upper and executive management to call out the problems and call shenanagins on the whole smoke and mirrors operation. That's why at the very least Meg should be held responsible and that her retirement should have happened years ago. They may be able to hide it from shareholders or average park guests, but it doesnt go unnoticed within the halls of TDO and Burbank. So many people have dropped the ball here, and nobody should make excuses for Iger or Staggs saying they're too busy with other projects to notice.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

I looked at the new ariel photos posted on this site and it really hit me. The Fantasyland Expansion, this....this parcel of land that fits in the entire property of 20,000 Leagues....this is the Potter Swatter TDO worked out. A well themed restaurant clustered next to a cloned ride from DCA with a different queue and facade, some new retail, landscaping, a closed Snow White replaced with a Princess meet and greet, a gutted skyway hill replaced with restrooms and another meet and greet, two dumbos, repurposed mickey's birthdayland tents, a new train station, and a kiddie coaster that is nowhere near opening anytime soon...this is what is supposed to bring in the guests?

I feel so cheated. This is not the groundbreaking management that helped create EPCOT Center, MGM, or AK, or expand the resort with elaborate golf courses and themed hotels. Instead it's predictable, and overinflated for the price you pay. WDW was a place I enjoyed going to so much until I began to realize the direction it was heading in. I really hope based on 74's original post, that things will finally change for the better, but....

....after visiting Disneyland Paris 5 times in 2011, I can't wait to visit Disneyland as soon as possible and experience the new DCA for my first time. I haven't been to WDW in nearly a year and have no plans...and quite frankly, don't miss it.

 

[NoChesterHester]

It may have been said already in this really long thread... I cant seem to remember anymore what was actually posted and what I just thought in my head as I was reading...

There is a real long term danger for Disney in Orlando. All young children love Disney, but that has to be more than a childhood connection for someone to become a fan. At some point later in life someone has to make that connection and fall in love with the place. For me it was my teenage years. Universal existed, but no IOA. This was the early nineties and Disney was amazing to me. Truly magical, not just a greeting. We went every year, sometimes twice and were always amazed by the new attractions, resorts, and areas opening at a faster pace than our frequent visits.

Herein lies the real danger. If kids today grow up thinking Disney is stale and Universal is magical then not too far down the road those "kids" bring their kids to the resort that gave them the real magical experience. Just like we return to Disney with our kids today. The paradigm can shift in a big way and a cultural shift like that is nearly impossible to recover from in the short term.

I live and work amongst young professionals with families. I can't tell you how many are planning Universal trips, not just because of the boy wizard, but because "the rides are so awesome."

Attendance goes flat. Then starts slipping. Then never recovers. The once giant is left to wonder why their new attractions dont change the cycle.

Perhaps they recognize this or perhaps they are so caught up in the corporate machine they are blind to the real danger.

 

[WDW1974]

Get back too me please when you have grasped the idea that "TDO" no longer has the leverage in these matters. It is coloring your perspective of how everything happens. WDW is NOT the same as it was 15 years ago as huge sums have gone into expanding resorts and restoring infrastructure both behind the scenes and "on-stage". Especially since Iger took over. Now the table is set for adding content to the parks. It was absolutely necessary for events to happen in the order they have.

Now we get to the fun part.

So right again, Frank. There are more hotels and timeshares, more buses and traffic, more dead and empty zones across property, more crumbling infrsatructure.

Now, we know your only purposes here are to argue in circles, deflect legit discussions and tout TDO and your pal, The Sheriff.

But if you are going to talk about so many things having been done to 'set the table' over 15 years (yes, kids, this is the same company that in the 20th century built EPCOT Center in three years, but is taking five for a modest Fantasyland expansion and a solid two-plus to just build a two-minute kiddie coaster!) why don't you tell us what they have been.

Because your version of reality and what actually has/is happened/happening are not the same at all.

 

[bstiles]

I thought when it takes that long its coined "The American Way"

 

[WDW1974]

The FLE is going to look amazing, Test Track was long overdue for a refurb/redo, & Pandora well, as someone put it, at least it's something.

But... my thinking is now, I pray these things DON'T have an "amazing success" because knowing how everything works at TDO currently, that would give them enough to say "Well, numbers (skewed of course) are way up. Guess we don't need to do as much as we thought."

Now I believe numbers will go up once FLE is fully running & they may even jump a smidge when 7DMT opens up in 2014, but with the current shake up going on within WDI, will that be enough? I sure as heck hope not.

You may believe the numbers will go up once the FL project is done, but I don't.

Of lesser import, but equally interesting is that neither TDO nor Burbank think it will either ... hence the panic, hence the desire to poach parts of DCA, hence Kathy Mangum's new job, hence all the cutbacks that have already started.

 

[WDW1974]

See the post above I just wrote. TDO does not make big decisions anymore it would not appear. They basically are a level of operations management. Big decisions are made in California. Pandora is the evidence of that.

This is that one out of two times a day when JT must be correct like a clock.

Big decisions are always made in CA. Always have been. Always will be. And Al Lutz has been wrong often when he suggests otherwise (when he speaks of One Disney stupidity coming out of FL, however, he is correct).

But TDO doesn't get to approve an extreme makeover for TPFKaTD-MGMS at all, make no mistake about that.

Yet, TDO can certainly get a $1 billion budget cut to $700 million ... and they get a three-year project to take five. They can make all sorts of changes once all the bigger stuff has been determined beyond them.

Oh, and someone needs to tell the WDI haters out there that Glendale doesn't decide what projects come to WDW ... they may decide the quality to some degree, but those decisions are made by management based on what they want in the parks.

WDI didn't fight tooth and nail to add a second Dumbo spinner or an Aladdin spinner. They simply designed them based on needs as asked of them. They also do wonders with paint too!

 

[WDW1974]

This is my worry as well. And while WDW is desperate for major new attractions and entertainment, as nice as that would be, would it bring back the prime rib to buffets? Or bring back show quality and working effects to the MK? Or non-foamhead entertainment? Or a functioning monorail and transport system?

The problems run deep, as many are well aware. WDW could use a few good billion for new attractions, but what about the other major issues at WDW?

What problems?

Just inhale that Pixie Dust pipe and pop in a Finding Nemo DVD and tell yourself that WDW has never been better ... and drift off to sleep knowing that Lou Mongello is watching over you!

 

[Jedeye80]

Since the first time I went to WDW in 04 there have been I believe 3 new rides (TSMM,EE and Soarin) not including refurbs,3 new shows monsters inc, idol and nemo musical. It's not enough now to make me lay down the £5000 I would need to for a basic 2 week trip, they need to get their finger out and give us people a reason to go other than a new theme. Uni has raised the bar now, it's time to remind people why WDW is the number 1 destination in the world.

 

[AmongMadPeople]

I doubt they will ever stop this practice. I feel that is particular smoke and mirror practice that will always work. People today are conditioned to look for a discount. They will raise rack rates to an even more obscene level and then discounted rates will come in at what ever profit margin they decide is acceptable. People will think they are getting a deal when they really are not.

Exactly. Once you start, it's hard to break the habit. Look at Kohl's vs JCP. I will never purchase anything at Kohl's at retail, because it will either eventually go on sale, or I'll get a coupon in the mail. JCP tried to break free of this ridiculous cycle of discounting by slashing retail on their items and simplifying sales, clearance and coupons. JCP is struggling to convince people to shop their lower retail with no coupons, when they can go to Kohl's and "save $60 with your Kohl's card!" on a $40 purchase because they're discounting inflated prices.

 

[WDW1974]

Question for '74, Lee, etc.

So, when WWOHP was announced, we all (all being Disney fans on the internetz) said, "hey, just
wait-Disney will respond, big time!" And we waited, and we waited . . .

It seemed so obvious.

What did they think was going to happen? Did they really think their market share
was unassailable? And this new thinking--did it come from outside, are they being
TOLD by the West coast, "time to get your act together", or did TDO management
wake up and say "DOH!"?

They thought they would continue their version of a Ponzi Scheme, a Pixie Dust Scheme (think I could get that on the Parks Blog?) ... I was reading Blondie's tweets and I seriously felt like hurling. I haven't seen that type of insincerity since ... since ... the last time I had to speak to a Disney spokesperson!

Oh, so you were asking about responding.

I would state they still aren't responding. They have just now (the point of this post) got to the point where the actually realize they need to do something. I was talking to a dear friend earlier today (who I miss a lot!) about the old days of the RADP newsgroup and how great it with unmoderated chat and how back then a much younger (and different Spirit) posted about the problems he was starting to notice at WDW. This was still when things were quite good, the mid-1990s. And how the apologists were already out, when Disney totally was ignoring this new medium. There was one dude called 'Bicker' (Brian Charles Kohn -- no private info being given, he used his name and was quite proud and it's out there today) who defended every move TDO made in the same vein of a JT today. And it was quite obvious he thought if kept doing this that TDO was gonna contact him and give him a junior exec job for $90K a year (they still don't pay that!) ...
\
Oops, sorta got on a tangent, but the point is WDW has operated under a business model (slow suicide someone else here called it) for over 15 years now. And they got away with it ... or so they thought. Problem is, it don't last forever (unlike true fairytale love). Time's up ... and all they can do is argue and look for the easiest way to solve things.

Pandora and a cheap version of Carsland aren't it. I'd argue at this point, that they're slightly more than what is going on over the old filled in lagoon at the MK.

 

[WDW1974]

I think mainly they do not want to be caught with too few accomadations. I think at times in the past that has happenened and that is much more damaging to the bottom line than too many rooms. Occupancy rates are a concern of stock holders and stuff accountants have to deal with. The average guest just does not care about it.

However, if someone suddenly decides they want a room at a certain time at a specific resort and the mouse has to say no because of a lack of inventory then that creates a much more negative impact on the guest not to mention the bottom line. So I am of the opinion they would rather have too many rooms. I think you will see Uni's new hotel open sooner than their newest offerings for the same reason. Certainly well before Potter 2.0.

If you truly believe this and aren't just looking for a rise, then you have absolutely no sense of reality and WDW's business at all.

Disney has been overbuilt in hotels/timeshares since the late 90s. That is why they continue to discount aggressively and in ways they never did in the 80s or 90s. Only fools, people who don't know to ask or people who demand to come during the 4-5 busiest weeks of the year actually have to pay rack rate.

And Wall Street would much rather see 15,000 rooms filled to 97% capacity year round with almost no discounting, than see 25,000 rooms filled to 77% with massive discounting.

WDW is NEVER sold out anymore. There was a time (say 20 years ago) when that was a possibility ... now, it never is.

As for TDA vs TDO, I really do not think there is anything to that. The DLR's needs were more serious so they got the attention. Now the pendulum swings back to WDW. TDA will fight for what the think they need and TDO will do the same. But ultimately one person will make the final decision.

No. There is plenty to TDA vs. TDO. That's one reason why folks at TWDC aren't happy that I posted that and that it is spreading ... and it could get worse because I don't think TDO has a 'what if we can't do Carsland?' Plan B.

Westcoasters are thrilled that this is out because they want to keep their unique product.

If I were Jason Garcia, I might try and get John Lasseter on the phone and talking about what he thinks about the idea (but I am just a clueless, insignificant and VERY bitter Spirit!)

 

[jt04]

Praise? Yes. It will be a beautifully themed area that makes the rest of Fantasyland look bad by comparison.

The crowds it attracts? Not so much. It will likely be the most crowded part of MK for sure, at least for the first couple of years. But the majority of that crowd will be guests that would be there anyway. Even TDO has never expected a huge increase in turnstile clicks for MK because of FLE.

I look forward to comparing the percentage of increase differences between MK with/without FLE and IoA with/without Potter. I can already make a nice prediction of how it will look.

A couple points. It appears the rest of FL will be getting madeover at this point. Tangled first of all at that end. Princess M&G where SW was. Village Haus is done. That really leaves very little that has not been upgraded from the train station to the transition to Liberty Square. I really doubt the leftovers from the previous version will not be dealt with.

Really? Comparing the FLE to Potter at the turnstyles? You wouldn't stack the deck to ensure you win would you? How about instead we compare DAK to Potter 1.0 when Pandora opens using real numbers of guests and not percentage increase. That seems a bit more reasonable. And I know how that will turn out.

Potter 2.0 is the real juggernaut. Not sure how the mouse will deal with that. Perhaps DCA 2.0.

 

[ChrisFL]

Personally, I don't really mind the dark rides being shared between parks. When WDW opened, it did so with Snow White's Scary Adventures, Peter Pan's Flight and Mr. Toad's Wild Ride which had all proven successful at Disneyland and it's a good way of keeping the classic animated Disney film's a part of the parks. I'm disappointed that the SWSA building isn't being remodeled into a dark ride based another WDAS film rather than another M&G to compensate for the ones that were eliminated from the original plan for the FLE; a Tangled or a Sleeping Beauty attraction would have been a great way to use that space IMO.

Different time, different era. They cloned a lot of attractions because MK was mostly designed just after Walt had passed away. Imagine what you would do differently if your founder and greatest mind had just passed on, probably not a whole lot. They DID make those attractions bigger/longer though.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Westcoasters are thrilled that this is out because they want to keep their unique product.

Got that right.