Yes, another monorail thread!

[RSoxNo1]

Let's not forget that the monorail is 100% electric powered. WDW buys most of its electricity from TECO Energy which generates most of its power from coal fired plants. TECO is listed as the 37th largest corporate producer of air pollution in the USA. As a result, the monorail system is a major source of air pollution in the USA. Just due to the massive pollution problems alone, they will never expand the system. Buses are the future of transportation at WDW.

I thought electricity came from magic.

 

[lobelia]

Then, I have some work to do! I'm on it!

Now this is a refreshing attitude!

 

[c-one]

You're welcome. If you haven't already, take a closer look here, within the post you found: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jRP_NS9VNmM/UAHwUQ-WqDI/AAAAAAAACzI/UuobXHBsffc/s1600/LBVPplan.jpg. You can see the monorail alignment follows Buena Vista Drive. This plan is pre-EPCOT/pre-most everything in the early/mid-70's, though, so things would change somewhat as the property was built out. The alignment wouldn't be allowed to cross any of the golf courses. I'll come back with answers to the other questions/posts later tonight or tomorrow. Studios plan would likely now change from the plan of previous years as there's now a final link to AK and AKL. If it ever comes to pass, I'd bet on a double beam with a loop at the end, likely through or near one of the savannahs, like the FW loop that ends the line at EPCOT. That's just speculation, however.

This is more like it -- more pics, diagrams, maps, etc. are needed in this thread.

 

[PeterAlt]

Another quick thought. Universal is about to link both of their parks with grade-separated train. The distance of that route is about the same for EPCOT to DHS.

 

[monothingie]

Everyone is talking about the cost per mile of monorail, but no one has said anything about the cost/mile of the roads at DW. If you have any increase in bus and car use, you need bigger roads and existing ones need refurbishment. There is already a massive congestion problem in many areas, adding buses does not help. Buses are a temporary fix that become less effective of a solution as time progresses.

I asked myself how much does it cost to build or refurbish a road. Take a look at the generic Florida DOT CPM estimation for different road construction projects. (link below) Looking at the examples presented, these type projects are not cheap. I would argue that the price for mass transit are with in reason when compared to cost of more roads which may or may not ease transportation issues.

Also someone threw out the $85-100 mil / mile cost for the Sao Paulo monorail, that price includes purchasing land right of ways, a cost that Disney would not have to bear.


ftp://ftp.dot.state.fl.us/LTS/CO/Estimates/CPM/summary.pdf

 

[Scuttle]

Another quick thought. Universal is about to link both of their parks with grade-separated train. The distance of that route is about the same for EPCOT to DHS.

I wouldn't say about the same. Epcot to DHS is about 3 times farther than the projected HE path.

 

[montyz81]

but I do know the current EPCOT Center station has the platform already built for another line. Right now that platform is used as part of pedestrian ramp.

The way that platform is shaped means tha new line would go under the current line?

 

[FettFan]

 

[FettFan]

The monorails are Electric????? Solar is a joke it is not cost effective in any way. If your thought is actually solars panels built into the monorails that would never produce any where near the amount of electricity that is needed.

Quite right. The solar panels that completely cover Universe of Energy only produce about 15% of the electricity necessary to run the attraction.

 

[Polydweller]

That line runs right through a very dense city and the price can't be compared at all to building a line at Disney World.

Actually it can, if one looks at monorail costs on the various monorail sites, they don't vary much because there are different problems in each location that have to be solved. In Florida, for example, they have problems of a water table very near the surface and sinkholes on the property. The costs will not be exactly the same, but pricing if various systems over a few decades says they will be similar and the figure simply illustrates how expensive it is to build a monorail.

 

[PeterAlt]

E

Everyone is talking about the cost per mile of monorail, but no one has said anything about the cost/mile of the roads at DW. If you have any increase in bus and car use, you need bigger roads and existing ones need refurbishment. There is already a massive congestion problem in many areas, adding buses does not help. Buses are a temporary fix that become less effective of a solution as time progresses.

I asked myself how much does it cost to build or refurbish a road. Take a look at the generic Florida DOT CPM estimation for different road construction projects. (link below) Looking at the examples presented, these type projects are not cheap. I would argue that the price for mass transit are with in reason when compared to cost of more roads which may or may not ease transportation issues.

Also someone threw out the $85-100 mil / mile cost for the Sao Paulo monorail, that price includes purchasing land right of ways, a cost that Disney would not have to bear.


ftp://ftp.dot.state.fl.us/LTS/CO/Estimates/CPM/summary.pdf

Exactly. I encourage everyone to read the article I posted earlier about the Jacksonville Skyway monorail. The Disney system would be multiples less expensive than expanding that one because of land already owned and because its a private project.

 

[PeterAlt]

Quite right. The solar panels that completely cover Universe of Energy only produce about 15% of the electricity necessary to run the attraction.

The monorails are Electric????? Solar is a joke it is not cost effective in any way. If your thought is actually solars panels built into the monorails that would never produce any where near the amount of electricity that is needed.

Actually, the way to do this is to have a canopy over the tracks and have solar panels coverage entire length of the tracks. It would also act as an air breaker and allow for less energy to be required in order to push the the wind and air dynamics. The energy collected by the panels would be more than enough to power the trains. The excess electricity could be used to power the lights surrounding the system pathway. The rest would be stored in batteries in order to keep the system powered at night.

We've just increased the project cost considerably in order to do this, but there would be significant long-term savings, as well as green bragging rights. If Disney is willing to spend a little more for significant long term savings and green bragging rights, go for it, but if cost is the main selling point, they could always upgrade it later.

 

[PeterAlt]

Quite right. The solar panels that completely cover Universe of Energy only produce about 15% of the electricity necessary to run the attraction.

Those panels were installed with the opening of the park. Since then, solar has advanced greatly in efficiency, and is still advancing. It's like comparing an old 56K modem to broadband or 4G wireless.

 

[PeterAlt]

I made my profile pic the 90's proposed monorail route from EPCOT to DHS. I'll change it to the EPCOT blueprints once I see acknowledgement that its been seen by the people here who requested to see it.

 

[whitethunder]

Not to mention when you get dust and leaf build-up on the panel they are almost useless. You'd need a fleet of people making sure those things are always clean to keep up efficiency.

 

[PhilharMagician]

The way that platform is shaped means tha new line would go under the current line?

That is the only thing I could think of, then the monorail would interfere with the tram loading zone. I am hoping for a pic outlining the platform.

 

[PhilharMagician]

I checked into running my house on PV panels and I was surprised at how terrible the numbers were even with a 55% tax rebate. SC rebate plus Fed rebate would get me 55%. I got several quotes of around $10,000 per kilowatt and I would need some where around a 8 kilowatt system to supply about 50% of my electricity. Net metering system BTW. So that would be $80,000 net rebates $36,000 out of pocket. My average electric bill is $230 a month (all electric house) or about $2800 a year. Take half $1400 a year. $36,000 / $1400 = 25.7 That's 25 years for a pay back and panels only last 20/22 years and the inverts last maybe 10 years. Even with inflation etc. solar just does not work in any economic sense. I can tell you I'm installing a solar water heater this fall which does make sense, same 55% rebates and around $6500 installed but when that's all said and done it should pay it's self off in 4 or 5 years. They say heating water is about 25% of your electric bill, we will see. Part of the problem with solar panels is the a lack of competition and huge mark ups. It's a rich mans game, they know it with no wiggle room on the numbers and I'm sure their mark up is 200-300%. To get the rebates the solar installers have to be accredited etc so there is no way around them and their attitude was basically we make plenty of money doing a few jobs why drop our prices and do more jobs for the same amount of money??? Disney I'm sure could get a lot better price but I seriously doubt solar panels would be worth it except as you say for green bragging rights. Everything is money money with WDW so I doubt they care about green bragging rights.

I have also checked into geothermal heat pumps which don't justify their cost either. The thin film solar cells are very limited in that they just don't make enough electricity in a small area to be used for a house. Charge your batteries, yes, house no. If I could run my house independent of the electric company I would even if it took me a while for a pay back period but I simply haven't found a way to do it. Also I'm not living like a cave man to say I'm green.

I put 7.5KW PV solar on my house about 5 years ago and my out of pocket ended up being about $8000 after federal and state rebates along with income tax incentives. It cover about 50% of my usage and has paid for itself already. I have 4 skylights on my south facing roof and if I did not I would have put enough panels to cover 100% of my electric usage.

 

[PhilharMagician]

If I could get the price down to $8,000 I would have bought them by now. Where do you live California??? It's the only state I can think of that would offer so much for solar. Also I pay 12 cents a KWh and I know some places out in California pay something like 25 cents which would make abig difference in pay back time.

New York. The incentives are not even close to what they once were and I got in just before the incentives dropped drastically.

 

[PeterAlt]

Not to mention when you get dust and leaf build-up on the panel they are almost useless. You'd need a fleet of people making sure those things are always clean to keep up efficiency.

Or robots.... This is already being done...

 

[PeterAlt]

Okay, I just changed my avatar. It's now the blueprints for EPCOT. It's shows where all the foundations were laid, including the one for the DTD spur. Click my avatar to make it bigger so you can actually read it!