Yes, another monorail thread!

[PeterAlt]

Oh dear. Ok, I'm going to answer this one and then move on with my life...I design and evaluate highway bridges as part of my job, so I can say I'm not just going on a hunch here. They are completely different animals. And seriously, the weight of gasoline in a vehicle is negligible.

I'm not envisioning heavy rail or metro type rolling stock. I'm envisioning small van-sized or bus-sized self-propelled units, like people movers but with higher capacity. These aren't trains. Think of them as electric automated fixed guideway buses. I'll post some images of the type of rolling stock I have in mind.

 

[PeterAlt]

Something like this can make the mostly ground level trek from World Drive to DAK and AKL.

 

[PeterAlt]

A combination of WEDWay Peoplemover and moving sidewalks from EPCOT Center to Disney Boardwalk (peoplemover) and Disney Boardwalk to DHS with an elevated walkway crossing the street and themed in a way that only Disney can do actually would be far less costly the monorail and would be an invaluably greater satisfactory experience that's worthy as an attraction in its own right!

Imagine...

 

[juniorthomas]

The future of WDW transportation is busses. Flexible and low cost. The monorails are sadly the opposite of this.

As long as the Monorails exist in some form, we should all be happy. It's basically a D-Ticket, and should be thought of as such.

 

[PeterAlt]

Also, monorail can run at ground level, although I prefer other kinds of systems. My problem with monorail technology is that it requires big switches located on tracks themselves. If the switch breaks down, traffic gets backed up. Light rail, heavy rail, trollies, and metro systems also require switches on the track, albeit not as nearly as massive as the switches required for monorail. Peoplemover-based technology and PRT do not use tracks, but a trackless guide way and the vehicles steer themselves (think Test Track) - no switches are required.

Any way, the Indiana University Health People Mover is considered a monorail by the Monorail Society. They use this system as an example of how monorails can operate on ground level, as well as above ground. Their example could be applied to any fixed guide way system, such as people mover and PRT.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_University_Health_People_Mover to learn more about that system. Second image below is the Indiana University People Mover. First image is just an example of monorail at ground level of an unknown system.

 

[PeterAlt]

I've been following this thread as much as I can, I am a structural engineer and I will gladly confirm this... They are different breeds... And yes passenger traffic is pretty light as compared to rail and/or even heavy trucks. Also, the existing monorail beams are post-tensioned, in a parabolic profile. Meaning you can't just drill and bolt things willy-nilly to convert systems or you risk hitting the cables holding them up. I know quite a bit about the existing system, and while I agree what you are saying is possible, its pretty much not worth the effort. I also posted numbers on expansion costs about a year ago if you want to dig through my post history. I got them via word of mouth from a higher level executive, not a day in-day out manager, so no I can not source it, so believe me if you want or not since a lot of people didn't believe me before either.

I have also heard (although I have not looked into this myself so i will disclaim that I'm not positive) that Bombardier has changed the size of the beams for their latest generations, meaning any new monorails would basically be custom made, jacking the price even more. The last numbers I heard for new trains at WDW were at about $40M per train (I think that's what it was, again look up my old post) so yea....

I hate to be a downer, but I do truly like to inform and help out so if you have any more engineering/transportation questions you can PM me if you like.

My latest opinion is that the new system should have minimum additional new monorail track. New track would include new spur segments near the TTC so that EPCOT trains could go directly to the MK. I would also utilize the buried footers east of Mission Space. I would relocate WDI and build a hotel/convention center on that plot of land that would support a new eastern monorail spur from EPCOT. The new line would end at a new transportation hub that would include a parking garage just south of the new hotel/convention center complex on vacant land on LBV that would also have retail on site as well. From there, a new rubber tire trackless electric automated peoplemover system serving DHS, Disney Springs, Typhoon Lagoon, Blizzard Beach, Disney Boardwalk, DAK, AKL, CSR, All Stars, CBC, etc. would be used. The system would use current bus infrastructure as much as possible, with some new elevated elements where needed. The dedicated lanes would be fenced off from automobile traffic. The rolling stock are essentially GPS oriented automated electric buses that require no special support. They have onboard batteries and are charged wirelessly by inverted electromagnetic transducers buried under the guideway. I'll make a map of what I have in mind. This makes so much sense financially, Disney really should hire me to oversee a build-out!

 

[RedDad]

I've been following this thread as much as I can, I am a structural engineer and I will gladly confirm this... They are different breeds... And yes passenger traffic is pretty light as compared to rail and/or even heavy trucks. Also, the existing monorail beams are post-tensioned, in a parabolic profile. Meaning you can't just drill and bolt things willy-nilly to convert systems or you risk hitting the cables holding them up. I know quite a bit about the existing system, and while I agree what you are saying is possible, its pretty much not worth the effort. I also posted numbers on expansion costs about a year ago if you want to dig through my post history. I got them via word of mouth from a higher level executive, not a day in-day out manager, so no I can not source it, so believe me if you want or not since a lot of people didn't believe me before either.

I have also heard (although I have not looked into this myself so i will disclaim that I'm not positive) that Bombardier has changed the size of the beams for their latest generations, meaning any new monorails would basically be custom made, jacking the price even more. The last numbers I heard for new trains at WDW were at about $40M per train (I think that's what it was, again look up my old post) so yea....

I hate to be a downer, but I do truly like to inform and help out so if you have any more engineering/transportation questions you can PM me if you like.

Good to know there's a fellow structural eng on the boards!

To the OP - I wasn't trying to kill off your dream. I would love to see a monorail expansion in the parks as much as anyone. Just wanted to bring a little knowledge to the conversation. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons - mainly cost vs ROI - I just don't see the expansion happening. I applaud your enthusiasm, though!

 

[Chuckles]

I, too, dream of an expanded monorail system, but without all the transfers and switches. Connecting the express line with the EPCOT line (bypassing TTC) then expanding that line to DHS and AK, with express transportation (red trolley cars, dedicated bus route or even a people mover) from each hotel to it's closet park, would allow on site guest to get from their hotel to any park with only one transfer. For example guest staying at POP, AOA, CBR, or Boardwalk, could take a trolley to DHS then either enter the park or board the monorail which would take them to AK,MK,EPCOT and back to DHS, Wilderness lodge resort guest going to EPCOT, DHS or AK could take the boat to MK then the monorail to the park they wish to visit, eliminating the need to transfer at TTC. Buses would still be available as well, just less on the road. Offsite and day guests wishing to use the monorail would park at EPCOT and board the monorail there, TTC would have ferry and bus transportation to MK only. That might even leave some space for a deluxe DVC hotel at the TTC monorail area since the venitian site is unsuitable for contruction. I know it's not going to happen, but we are dreaming here, right?

 

[PeterAlt]

I, too, dream of an expanded monorail system, but without all the transfers and switches. Connecting the express line with the EPCOT line (bypassing TTC) then expanding that line to DHS and AK, with express transportation (red trolley cars, dedicated bus route or even a people mover) from each hotel to it's closet park, would allow on site guest to get from their hotel to any park with only one transfer. For example guest staying at POP, AOA, CBR, or Boardwalk, could take a trolley to DHS then either enter the park or board the monorail which would take them to AK,MK,EPCOT and back to DHS, Wilderness lodge resort guest going to EPCOT, DHS or AK could take the boat to MK then the monorail to the park they wish to visit, eliminating the need to transfer at TTC. Buses would still be available as well, just less on the road. Offsite and day guests wishing to use the monorail would park at EPCOT and board the monorail there, TTC would have ferry and bus transportation to MK only. That might even leave some space for a deluxe DVC hotel at the TTC monorail area since the venitian site is unsuitable for contruction. I know it's not going to happen, but we are dreaming here, right?

We are dreaming, but I'm trying to be as practical and realistic about it as possible. Sure, the people who pull the purse strings at Disney will do as they see fit, and probably couldn't care less what we think; but, if we try to look at it from their point of view, we can try to make it more appealing. For example, if we figure out ways to keep costs down that they haven't, maybe they'll take a long hard look at their options. If you figure out ways that it could generate revenue and help pay for itself, it could help increase the odds of it happening. For example (as I said in an earlier post), by constructing new hotels, convention space, retail, and parking on vacant land in the path of a proposed route, foundations for the buildings of those projects could be planned for also supporting a monorail running through it (like the Contemporary). That would cover the cost for that section of expansion, while also building projects that will produce revenue.

I agree with what you said, by the way.

 

[mm121]

This is more like it -- more pics, diagrams, maps, etc. are needed in this thread.

maps are always good.

Another quick thought. Universal is about to link both of their parks with grade-separated train. The distance of that route is about the same for EPCOT to DHS.

disney could use some of the tech involved in this to make the journey from place to place an experience all unto itself using animated windows etc, this would also allow more flexible routing through backstage areas etc.

Actually, the way to do this is to have a canopy over the tracks and have solar panels coverage entire length of the tracks. It would also act as an air breaker and allow for less energy to be required in order to push the the wind and air dynamics. The energy collected by the panels would be more than enough to power the trains. The excess electricity could be used to power the lights surrounding the system pathway. The rest would be stored in batteries in order to keep the system powered at night.

We've just increased the project cost considerably in order to do this, but there would be significant long-term savings, as well as green bragging rights. If Disney is willing to spend a little more for significant long term savings and green bragging rights, go for it, but if cost is the main selling point, they could always upgrade it later.

Totally wouldn't work at all.

I'm beginning to think, a stand-alone system would be better for the EPCOT to DHS link. It doesn't have to me monorail. People mover or light rail would do just fine. So would a single train on a one-way track to save on costs. But it has to be elevated over all road crossings. The cars can even be open air, like the WEDWay Peoplemover at the MK and with a canopy and solar panels on top.

They already have trams going around the EPCOT resort area. I'm thinking of an automated electric version of that, perferably with linear induction motors, with the guideway closed to pedestrian traffic, or a separate guideway for pedestrian traffic.

the best option would be some type of PRT personal rapid transit system, utilzing a variety of different size vehicles to hold different numbers of passengers, maybe say 4-6 8-12 and the 20. on a system that is more or less trackless within its transportational zones.

this would enable riders to go direct to their destinations, ideally in time a system would be developed to enable the routes to access the majority of the hotels along with the parks.

After extensive research, I am concluding that Disney's best approach to connecting the rest of WDW to the monorail system is to connect the rest with a peoplemover rather than monorail. The peoplemover could use the buried footers located at Future World between Energy and MS to traverse out of from EPCOT Center.

Along EPCOT Drive to LBV Drive, there is developable land zoned for future mixed use. Perhaps a new development there could incorporate retail space, entertainment, hotel rooms, parking garage, and maybe even convention and/or stadium space. The site has a "strip" layout, along the road and the once-planned future monorail corridor to LBV. The engineering for this future development should be designed to accommodate the peoplemover from its Future World exit point through the entire length of the project. The peoplemover could run either on the roof of the development or enclosed within the development. By including the peoplemover corridor as part of this development, money could be saved on the overall cost of building the peoplemover system by creating a dual use of that development's support structures. Also, a direct transit link into EPCOT Center from this development will increase demand for anything within it, such as hotel rooms, retail, convention facilities, etc.

Once the peoplemover line exits the facility, it should continue on a elevated pathway on EPCOT Drive to LBV Drive and follow above the median of LBV drive to the proposed Downtown Disney parking facility. Elevated moving sidewalks, like the ones at Universal StudIos Florida, could provide links across the street to WDW Village Marketplace and Downtown Disney's West Side. Another stop could provide an elevated walkway to Typhoon Lagoon. A leg of the system could extend west to DHS. An at-grade section, after crossing World Drive, could extend to the Coronado Springs Resort, Blizzard Beach, and DAK.

An enclosed at-grade peoplemover and/or moving sidewalk system could run along the west side of Future World on or above the service roads, with stops and/or exits at Disney's Boardwalk and an elevated section crossing to DHS, where it could link to the system described above.

This not only would solve the transportation problems, but will also create additional streams of revenue for the company by fully exploiting existing assets with developable assets. It does so in an attractive, convenient, entertaining, and cost effective way. Disney should put Imagineering in charge of developing this project, but instruct them to also work with an outside company, such as Bombardiar, for their expertise in transportation systems.

I'm putting together some graphics that I will post to illustrate this. Thoughts?

i definitely wouldn't add to the current monorail system at all, as the new system would need to be much more flexible and a system with many stops would need to be able to skip unnecessary stops.

I've been advocating a routable peoplemover paths as the answer for years. Think 'automated baggage handling system'. The system would include both low speed and high speed zones, full automation, and vehicles destinations are determined by guest input.

The problem with peoplemover in general is the distances involved. The system must be multispeed and needs multiple routes to be practical. The ability to reuse the same pathes for different routes would be essential in costing it all.

It's already been done in smaller scale - it just needs to be built up to family sized carriages with the safety systems needed for humans.

At grade with elevated crossings is probably preferred as it minimizes evacuation issues, but introduces new obstacle avoidance and breakdown issues. A possible compromise would be to have an elevated track, but not one like the monorail where it's beam only and no need for it to be so high the entire distance.

this is definitely possible now, and disney wouldn't even have to develop the tech, its been in development for years and has just recently seen some real life system rollouts granted a wdw system would be the biggest ever attempted in terms of scale and capacity, but its a system that could be built over time and capacity increased over time elimating a completely outrageous initial buildout cost.

Let me also clarify something else. I don't care if its monorail. In fact, I would prefer monorail the least over other forms of automated fixed guideway transit. People movers and PRT are most preferable.

I just want to see less buses. Electric trollies are preferable to buses but not as preferable as automated fixed guideway. Light rail is preferable over trolly.

glad you clarified as monorails aren't really the best, theres better technology available now.

That would have been a good thing to clarify much earlier, because you kept talking about monorails instead of light rail or people movers. There is a huge difference in those things and each one can contain it's own argument for feasibility or not. The monorail, for many reasons besides cost, are not ever going to be feasible. Not the least of which is the danger of a monorail train broken down on a rail 30 feet in the air. Something at ground level would not have that risk.

its not really possible to build the whole system at ground level, but a system could maybe have some safety zones or something that vehicles could stop at if they began to experience problems, as the distances in a wdw whole resort system would be much greater than the current monorail system.

A combination of WEDWay Peoplemover and moving sidewalks from EPCOT Center to Disney Boardwalk (peoplemover) and Disney Boardwalk to DHS with an elevated walkway crossing the street and themed in a way that only Disney can do actually would be far less costly the monorail and would be an invaluably greater satisfactory experience that's worthy as an attraction in its own right!

Imagine...

there is already a pathway from epcot to boardwak, along with the boat system, i dont know where they would build what your suggesting without totally destroying the character of this area.