Yes, another monorail thread!

[PeterAlt]

EDIT: Made several corrections and deletions in the spirit of accuracy.

Originally, I posted this in another thread, but that thread got locked. So, I am reposting it here...

In my ongoing quest to get information about Disney's long-dormant monorail expansion plans for WDW, I learned a few more interesting things I hadn't known previously, which I thought I would share.

To understand the company's original interest, you have to understand that developing ride systems for attractions is part of the inherent nature of the company. So, the thinking was "was apply our ingenuity for developing ride systems for use in developing new transportation systems... While we are at, maybe we can sell these transportation to real cities for real metropolitan use... We can showcase our prototypes by building them first at our parks, where they could also double at attractions... And, all new large developments would be packaged with our systems as part of the infrastructure for that project..."

EPCOT Center was the only development, besides the Magic Kingdom, to carry forth that policy. The next project to carry forth that policy wad to be the Lake Buena Vista Disney Village New Orleans Square development that was to utilize the monorail infrastructure already in place at EPCOT Center.

Disney formed a new division to sell its newly developed transportation systems for license outside the parks. Their bid to build a WEDway Peoplemover won out over other peoplemover systems and was built and installed at The Houston International Airport. Another WEDway peoplemover system was built underground in tunnels in Washington, DC for the exclusive use by members of Congress. Both systems have been upgraded during the years and are still in use today.

Some modern systems, such as the Detroit People Mover, use linear induction motors, similar in concept to Disney's WEDway Peoplemover. Another type of linear induction motor is maglev, a system that uses electromagnetism to make its trains hover, creating zero friction on the ground, and thereby requiring less energy to move it. Maglev is ideal for super high speed transportation. The Chinese currently have a short maglev system running from the Shanghai airport. The State of Florida had planned on building a maglev from Tampa to Orlando International Airport, stopping at WDW with funds mostly paid for by the Federal government, but the state's new governor, Rick Scott (R), decided to return that money and the Florida maglev is now cancelled. The City of Anaheim, in California, is considering a slow-moving maglev monorail over a few other technologies for its planned people mover system for the Disneyland resort area.

During the early planning of EPCOT Center, Disney had considered an upgrading the WDW monorail system with WEDway linear induction motor. It is possible that this was the technology basis for any planned monorail expansion being considered during this period of time.

When Michael Eisner became CEO, the stockholders complained that Disney was "all over the place" and not focused on its core businesses. As a response, to show that Disney's new management team listens to its shareholders and that they are returning the company's focus back to its core businesses, Eisner's team decided to sell off subsidiaries that were not focused on theme parks, television, or film production. This inclouded the new community services transporation systems division and Arvida, a real estate company Disney had purchased a year prior. The transportation systems division was sold to Bombardia. I do not know yet if Disney shares these patents with Bombardia, or if Disney lost the rights to these patents when they were sold to Bombardia.

There you have it. That's my latest research, but I still have much more to do. Please feel free to comment!

 

[lazyboy97o]

Once again you're confusing some of the specifics.

The system of rubber tires in the track was the first generation of the WEDway PeopleMover.

The second generation (Magic Kingdom) does use linear induction motors (LIM), which is specifically magnetism as a means of propulsion. It differs from the similar system, linear synchronous motors (LSM).

Other people mover systems are after the WEDway system and owe much to Bombardier's purchase of WEDway.

The recently cancelled Florida High Speed Rail project was never a maglev project, nor are the proposed connections between ARTIC and the Disneyland Resort.

The Walt Disney World Monorail System cannot simply be converted to the WEDway system, nor were there plans to do so. They are vastly different in their method of operation and construction. The WEDway System was going to work with the Monorail System, not replace it.

 

[PeterAlt]

Once again you're confusing some of the specifics.

The system of rubber tires in the track was the first generation of the WEDway PeopleMover.

The second generation (Magic Kingdom) does use linear induction motors (LIM), which is specifically magnetism as a means of propulsion. It differs from the similar system, linear synchronous motors (LSM).

Other people mover systems are after the WEDway system and owe much to Bombardier's purchase of WEDway.

The recently cancelled Florida High Speed Rail project was never a maglev project, nor are the proposed connections between ARTIC and the Disneyland Resort.

The Walt Disney World Monorail System cannot simply be converted to the WEDway system, nor were there plans to do so. They are vastly different in their method of operation and construction. The WEDway System was going to work with the Monorail System, not replace it.

I'll have to go back to my sources and check. I'm pretty sure, what I wrote is pretty accurate.

Slow-moving maglev is one of the technology options being considered for ARC -
http://www.anaheim.net/administration/PIO/news.asp?id=1459

I'll find docs to prove FHR was to be a maglev. I should know because I've been following it since they started planning it. Unless they decided not to use maglev technology and I missed that story that day...

 

[PeterAlt]

Once again you're confusing some of the specifics.

The system of rubber tires in the track was the first generation of the WEDway PeopleMover.

The second generation (Magic Kingdom) does use linear induction motors (LIM), which is specifically magnetism as a means of propulsion. It differs from the similar system, linear synchronous motors (LSM).

Other people mover systems are after the WEDway system and owe much to Bombardier's purchase of WEDway.

The recently cancelled Florida High Speed Rail project was never a maglev project, nor are the proposed connections between ARTIC and the Disneyland Resort.

The Walt Disney World Monorail System cannot simply be converted to the WEDway system, nor were there plans to do so. They are vastly different in their method of operation and construction. The WEDway System was going to work with the Monorail System, not replace it.

Oh, and the plan was not to convert the WDW monorail into a WEDway peoplemover system. They wanted to add linear induction motors to the current monorail system, not convert it, but rather upgrade it.

 

[flynnibus]

Peteralt.. That could be a new record for misinformation in a single post. You are like 75% correct, but maul the rest due to lack of understanding of the basics.

Start with the difference between power transfer verse propulsion. You keep saying lim when talking about power transfer. A lim is a motor... Motors move things. A lsm is another form of electric moror propulsion.

When you are talking about power rails you are talking about power transfer. Lim is not a form of power transfer. For power transfer you basically have direct coupling... Basically physical contact. That's your 3rd rail. Then you have inductive transfer which is where a em field is used to transfer energy without a direct physical coupling. That may be used to power a propulsion system, but is not the propulsion system itself.

Steel vs rubber is about the weight that is needed to be supported and durability and has nothing to do with how they are powered.

A modern train uses steel wheels driven by electric motors.. That get their electricity from diesel powered generators. The original peoplemover used electric motors with tires and a direct power coupling for power transfer. The mk version used lim propulsion.

Don't confuse how a system is powered vs how it moves.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'll have to go back to my sources and check. I'm pretty sure, what I wrote is pretty accurate.

Slow-moving maglev is one of the technology options being considered for ARC -
http://www.anaheim.net/administration/PIO/news.asp?id=1459

I'll find docs to prove FHR was to be a maglev. I should know because I've been following it since they started planning it. Unless they decided not to use maglev technology and I missed that story that day...

Why don't you just post your sources like people keep asking? This is why everything you post on the matter is being treated with great suspicion, because you refuse to open about where this information originates.

Almost every agency likes to say they are looking at maglev, and that has been the case for years now in this county. ARC is still up in the air and still dependent on many other factors.

Maglev projects have been proposed for Florida, as they have for many locations. There is even a proposal from a company local to me for one in Orlando. But the state run program was not for a maglev. It was standard high speed rail like is being built in California.

Oh, and the plan was not to convert the WDW monorail into a WEDway peoplemover system. They wanted to add linear induction motors to the current monorail system, not convert it, but rather upgrade it.

And who would make these supposed upgrades? Bombardier owns Disney's WEDway and monorail technology and thet would require completely reworking the track and trains.

 

[flynnibus]

Oh, and the plan was not to convert the WDW monorail into a WEDway peoplemover system. They wanted to add linear induction motors to the current monorail system, not convert it, but rather upgrade it.

You really need to go back and retread that because that makes absolutely zero sense with the current beam way design.

 

[PeterAlt]

Peteralt.. That could be a new record for misinformation in a single post. You are like 75% correct, but maul the rest due to lack of understanding of the basics.

Start with the difference between power transfer verse propulsion. You keep saying lim when talking about power transfer. A lim is a motor... Motors move things. A lsm is another form of electric moror propulsion.

When you are talking about power rails you are talking about power transfer. Lim is not a form of power transfer. For power transfer you basically have direct coupling... Basically physical contact. That's your 3rd rail. Then you have inductive transfer which is where a em field is used to transfer energy without a direct physical coupling. That may be used to power a propulsion system, but is not the propulsion system itself.

Steel vs rubber is about the weight that is needed to be supported and durability and has nothing to do with how they are powered.

A modern train uses steel wheels driven by electric motors.. That get their electricity from diesel powered generators. The original peoplemover used electric motors with tires and a direct power coupling for power transfer. The mk version used lim propulsion.

Don't confuse how a system is powered vs how it moves.

I got my information about lim from the Wikipedia article on lim. My understanding, from what it said, is that lim could be used for power transfer or for propulsion. In the case of the later, I used two examples of how it could be used for propulsion: maglev (via levitation) and WEDway (via push and pull). Wikipedia could be wrong or I misunderstood what it was saying.

I added that, when used for power transfer, it can allow rubber tire and no third rail, since metal to metal contact is no longer necessary. The obvious benefit is that you have a quiet train and that it could make sharp turns. It is also lighter, as you pointed out. This is how Miami's Metromover works.

As you pointed out, diesel can generate power as well to drive the engines that turn the wheels, and you do not need a third rail, but diesel adds weight and exhausts greenhouse gases. I am not a fan of anything diesel, by the way. Some modern subways use lim. The one in Quebec lim and rubber tires.

 

[PeterAlt]

Why don't you just post your sources like people keep asking? This is why everything you post on the matter is being treated with great suspicion, because you refuse to open about where this information originates.

Almost every agency likes to say they are looking at maglev, and that has been the case for years now in this county. ARC is still up in the air and still dependent on many other factors.

Maglev projects have been proposed for Florida, as they have for many locations. There is even a proposal from a company local to me for one in Orlando. But the state run program was not for a maglev. It was standard high speed rail like is being built in California.


And who would make these supposed upgrades? Bombardier owns Disney's WEDway and monorail technology and thet would require completely reworking the track and trains.

The plan was put in place pre-Eisner. I still don't know if these patents are shared with Bombardiar, since we see them used in California Screeming and Rock N Rollercoaster.

As to my sources, I don't ever "refuse" to reference them, like you said. I'll quote them for now on, if that is what makes people happy. I just didn't state my sources because I just wanted to write my mind, not an essay, which requires more work and time. My attitude was that I could always go back and state my source if someone asks.

I'll post the rest of the sources tonight after I'm done watching Dexter, Homeland, and Boardwalk Empire... Lol

 

[lazyboy97o]

I got my information about lim from the Wikipedia article on lim. My understanding, from what it said, is that lim could be used for power transfer or for propulsion. In the case of the later, I used two examples of how it could be used for propulsion: maglev (via levitation) and WEDway (via push and pull). Wikipedia could be wrong or I misunderstood what it was saying.

I added that, when used for power transfer, it can allow rubber tire and no third rail, since metal to metal contact is no longer necessary. The obvious benefit is that you have a quiet train and that it could make sharp turns. It is also lighter, as you pointed out. This is how Miami's Metromover works.

As you pointed out, diesel can generate power as well to drive the engines that turn the wheels, and you do not need a third rail, but diesel adds weight and exhausts greenhouse gases. I am not a fan of anything diesel, by the way. Some modern subways use lim. The one in Quebec lim and rubber tires.

Wikipedia is not a serious research source. It is great for getting a basic understanding and some leads, but it is not a serious ource.

I think you are confusing the First Generation WEDway system, the Second Generation WEDway system and other means of propulsion. The First Generation WEDway propulsion was in use at Ford Magic Skyway and Disneyland PeopleMover. This involved fixed rubber tires embedded in the track with individual motors which would rotate and propel the vehicles. The Second Generation WEDway such as the one still in operation at the Magic Kingdom uses LIMs. Montreal Metro uses neither of these. The rubber tires are attached to the drain and the motors are part of the train, not the track system. There is also no use of LIMs as that is a propulsion system, the populsion is being done by the tires on the trains. I also do not see where you are getting the idea that the Bombardier Innovia APM systems (Miami Metromover) use LIMs, that seems to be the larger Metro series but I have not done much looking.

The plan was put in place pre-Eisner. I still don't know if these patents are shared with Bombardiar, since we see them used in California Screeming and Rock N Rollercoaster.

Disney did not invent LIMs and Rock 'N Rollercoaster uses LSMs for its launch. These technologies are used on these coasters because that is the technology utilized by Intamin (California Screamin') and Vekoma (Rock 'N Rollercoaster) and not exclusive to their application within a Disney theme park (Rock 'N Rollercoaster can even be ridden as a pure coaster in the Netherlands).

As to my sources, I don't ever "refuse" to reference them, like you said. I'll quote them for now on, if that is what makes people happy. I just didn't state my sources because I just wanted to write my mind, not an essay, which requires more work and time. My attitude was that I could always go back and state my source if someone asks.

People have asked repeatedly for links, images and sources and you have not been forward with providing any of them. Yes, people are going to want to see them because you state you are basing this on research. There is a lot of bad information out there about Disney.

 

[flynnibus]

I got my information about lim from the Wikipedia article on lim. My understanding, from what it said, is that lim could be used for power transfer or for propulsion

**Induction** can be used for power transfer or ultimately propulsion - not LIM. LIM is a propulsion application of magnetic forces created with induction. You can't use terms with different meanings interchangeably and stay coherent.

I added that, when used for power transfer, it can allow rubber tire and no third rail, since metal to metal contact is no longer necessary

You're mixing concepts again. The tires used aren't not about how power is transferred. They'll get power and ground how they need it independently. Tires are used in light rail applications based on multiple factors.

The obvious benefit is that you have a quiet train and that it could make sharp turns. It is also lighter, as you pointed out. This is how Miami's Metromover works.

The weight comment was not about how much the system weighs, but how much it can SUPPORT aka carry. And I have no idea why you are bringing turning into this.

As you pointed out, diesel can generate power as well to drive the engines that turn the wheels, and you do not need a third rail, but diesel adds weight and exhausts greenhouse gases. I am not a fan of anything diesel, by the way. Some modern subways use lim. The one in Quebec lim and rubber tires.

Wuh? Quebec is a province.. which system are you talking about? Montreal? Montreal uses rubber tires but uses traction motors (electric motors), not EM propulsion.

You need to stop trying to make this connection between what tires they run and how they get power. You're making correlations that make no sense.

 

[PeterAlt]

Why don't you just post your sources like people keep asking? This is why everything you post on the matter is being treated with great suspicion, because you refuse to open about where this information originates.

Almost every agency likes to say they are looking at maglev, and that has been the case for years now in this county. ARC is still up in the air and still dependent on many other factors.

Maglev projects have been proposed for Florida, as they have for many locations. There is even a proposal from a company local to me for one in Orlando. But the state run program was not for a maglev. It was standard high speed rail like is being built in California.


And who would make these supposed upgrades? Bombardier owns Disney's WEDway and monorail technology and thet would require completely reworking the track and trains.

Here's the source for much of what I had written:

http://epcotexplorer.tumblr.com/post/26843751740/the-wedway-peoplemover-and-the-community

From the article:

"...using a new WEDway line and a possibly linear induction powered redesign of the Walt Disney World Monorail System."

Yes, it said "probably", but this proves that this had been talked about and seriously considered. To me, this is insight on the thought process back then, which is very relevant, considering the infrastructure left in place.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Here's the source for much of what I had written:

http://epcotexplorer.tumblr.com/post/26843751740/the-wedway-peoplemover-and-the-community

From the article:

"...using a new WEDway line and a possibly linear induction powered redesign of the Walt Disney World Monorail System."

Yes, it said "probably", but this proves that this had been talked about and seriously considered. To me, this is insight on the thought process back then, which is very relevant, considering the infrastructure left in place.

That is a brief mention, not concrete proof of a serious plan. We're also talking about the 1970s, before EPCOT Center, so I am not sure what infrastructure was left in place or what you are implying by its mention.

 

[PeterAlt]

Wikipedia is not a serious research source. It is great for getting a basic understanding and some leads, but it is not a serious ource.

I think you are confusing the First Generation WEDway system, the Second Generation WEDway system and other means of propulsion. The First Generation WEDway propulsion was in use at Ford Magic Skyway and Disneyland PeopleMover. This involved fixed rubber tires embedded in the track with individual motors which would rotate and propel the vehicles. The Second Generation WEDway such as the one still in operation at the Magic Kingdom uses LIMs. Montreal Metro uses neither of these. The rubber tires are attached to the drain and the motors are part of the train, not the track system. There is also no use of LIMs as that is a propulsion system, the populsion is being done by the tires on the trains. I also do not see where you are getting the idea that the Bombardier Innovia APM systems (Miami Metromover) use LIMs, that seems to be the larger Metro series but I have not done much looking.


Disney did not invent LIMs and Rock 'N Rollercoaster uses LSMs for its launch. These technologies are used on these coasters because that is the technology utilized by Intamin (California Screamin') and Vekoma (Rock 'N Rollercoaster) and not exclusive to their application within a Disney theme park (Rock 'N Rollercoaster can even be ridden as a pure coaster in the Netherlands).


People have asked repeatedly for links, images and sources and you have not been forward with providing any of them. Yes, people are going to want to see them because you state you are basing this on research. There is a lot of bad information out there about Disney.

I have a whole folder I saved of pictures I want to post, but I haven't figured out how to yet. I may have to get an account somewhere that I can upload them to and post the links... I'll get around to doing that soon.

The Miami Metromover and other urban peoplemover systems, such as Detroit uses electromagnetism on the track that is converted to electricity on the trains. When I talk about linear induction, I am including that within the broader scope. I do this because I am working with the Wikipedia definition.

If Wikipedia is wrong, then I am using the wrong language to communicate what I am trying to say.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I have a whole folder I saved of pictures I want to post, but I haven't figured out how to yet. I may have to get an account somewhere that I can upload them to and post the links... I'll get around to doing that soon.

The Miami Metromover and other urban peoplemover systems, such as Detroit uses electromagnetism on the track that is converted to electricity on the trains. When I talk about linear induction, I am including that within the broader scope. I do this because I am working with the Wikipedia definition.

If Wikipedia is wrong, then I am using the wrong language to communicate what I am trying to say.

Yes, a photo hosting site is your best means of sharing images.

Again, Wikipedia is not a strong resource. You are mixing terms. Even quickly looking at the pages for the Metromover and Detroit People Mover, I do not see where you are getting that these systems are utilizing LIMs. The mere use of electricity or electromagentism somewhere in the process does not mean LIMs are in use and I also do not see where Wikipedia users are making this association.

 

[PeterAlt]

That is a brief mention, not concrete proof of a serious plan. We're also talking about the 1970s, before EPCOT Center, so I am not sure what infrastructure was left in place or what you are implying by its mention.

Yes, I said pre-Eisner. They started building EPCOT Center in 1977 and engineering for it way before that, so of course we're talking about the 70's. The quote from the article is specifically about EPCOT Center. Here is the complete sentence and a few sentences before that:

"Further, it was a goal and hope of the division that the solutions found in designing a wider transportation system could be applied to the master planning and design of related Disney projects. EPCOT’s Theme Center and World Showcase were prime candidates for this type of project and in their formative stages were often “packaged” with these transportation systems, as seen in the renderings above. Further, Disney associated their transportation work as a sort of extension of EPCOT’s logos and pathos in the sense that transportation solutions were part of a pressing need in cities and urban environments that Disney hoped to solve. EPCOT, of course would have been the “solution center” for exhibiting the answers to those problems by showcasing and using a new WEDway line and a possibly linear induction powered redesign of the Walt Disney World Monorail System."

The infrastructure I'm referring to is all that they included within the scope of the EPCOT Center project, planning, construction, and Master Plan.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I know how to read and I read your link the first time. You're quote shows though that this was before EPCOT Center, specifically mentioning the Theme Center and World Showcase. These are unbuilt predecessors to EPCOT Center that became Future World and World Showcase.

Infrastructure is a physical object. Plans for a larger monorail system are not infrastructure. The Master Plan for Walt Disney World in the 1970s was also very different from how the Resort moved forward since the mid-1980s.

 

[PeterAlt]

I know how to read and I read your link the first time. You're quote shows though that this was before EPCOT Center, specifically mentioning the Theme Center and World Showcase. These are unbuilt predecessors to EPCOT Center that became Future World and World Showcase.

Infrastructure is a physical object. Plans for a larger monorail system are not infrastructure. The Master Plan for Walt Disney World in the 1970s was also very different from how the Resort moved forward since the mid-1980s.

I understand that. Can I hunt for Hidden Mickeys without ridicule, please! Lol

If I'm wasting time, its my time that I'm wasting. It's been we'll worth it so far just for the odd and end things I'm discovering.

Even Walt Disney was obsessed with this whole transportation thing. I've never been okay with the fact that his obsession had never been put into practice. The fact that WDW is a bus haven today when it could be a living example of innovative transportation systems is an idea that had so much potential is just inexcusable, IMHO.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If I'm wasting time, its my time that I'm wasting. It's been we'll worth it so far just for the odd and end things I'm discovering.

I do not think you are wasting your time nor am I ridiculing you. The problem I see is that you're getting ahead of yourself. In your rush to get something juicy you are not building a solid foundation of research, knowledge and understanding. From what you are writing you are mixing and confusing concepts which, to me, appears to be causing you to leap to conclusions you would not necessarily be making.

Research methodology is a skill that is practiced and developed. I applaud your enthusiasm for the subject, but I think you need to build your base to something more substantial before making speculative jumps.

 

[PeterAlt]

I do not think you are wasting your time nor am I ridiculing you. The problem I see is that you're getting ahead of yourself. In your rush to get something juicy you are not building a solid foundation of research, knowledge and understanding. From what you are writing you are mixing and confusing concepts which, to me, appears to be causing you to leap to conclusions you would not necessarily be making.

Research methodology is a skill that is practiced and developed. I applaud your enthusiasm for the subject, but I think you need to build your base to something more substantial before making speculative jumps.

You've been the "friendlier" of the critics. I do appreciate the tips. My last post was just me having a mini-meltdown from having to answer to multiple attack messages from several posters here.