Yes, another monorail thread!

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I think I've become obsessed with monorails! It is unsettling to me that monorail - an icon on WDW so recognized worldwide like the MK castle or EPCOT's geophere - is getting less love by Disney management than the buses do! EPCOT to DTD or DHS is such a short and INEXPENSIVE run to build that it's just frustrating when you hear excuses for it not getting built. I've become obsessed in trying to get a hold of some real studies and plans for the new routes because mistakes of the past can always be corrected (ala DCA). So, I believe these plans were real and Disney plans on fixing past mistakes over the next ten years, monorail has to be a project currently in back burner.

I've made some progress with my research:

- I've gotten a hold of the 1992 plan to build a monorail from EPCOT, around the EPCOT resorts, to DHS. It's a very short, efficient route that looks like the land it cuts through were always planned to use it. Apparently, Eisner decided not to invest in it because it didn't generate revenue, not because it was too expensive, as rumors have said persistently with authority over the years.

When Walt Disney built Disneyland, his brother Roy (who had always been the company's CEO, while Walt was the president) would not finance the monorail there either, using excuses similar to Eisner's). Walt, then, started WEDway Enterprises to build, own and operate the DL monorail. They also owned the MK WEDway PeopleMover at DL, the DL RR, the cable cars, and the Main Street Trolly system. Roy was wrong and all these transporation systems WEDway Enterprises owned turned a huge profit. Eventually, the Disney company would buy WEDway Enterprises from Walt and his family and merge it into the Walt Disney Company.

- I also, FINALLY, got a hold of the original blueprints of EPCOT Center. It shows exactly where the DTD route would have followed through EPCOT. We have known that it would have cut through between Horizons and UoE, but the exact alignment (which foundations were actually poured during EPCOT Center construction) had not been known. The blueprints show the line running in a STRAIGHT line parallel above the cast member parking lot and right under the Imagineering building. This alignment matches perfectly the line the squares that could be seen in an aerial view, not the big rectangular shape that could be seen behind the former Health pavilion, as was thought to be a monorail foundation previously.

- In a recent interview with the new head of transportation systems at WDW said that 2.5 years, the monorail system will be upgraded with new cars and with automation. This is very telling. Before any new lines are built, conversion of the old manual system to an automated one must first be completed. Since we now know that the plan is to do this work in the next 2.5 years, it's only logical that the expansion buildout will follow. This doesn't mean that construction will happen immediately after because engineering work must be done first, which could take a couple of years.

Folks, I think it's actually gonna happen! (Fingers crossed)
 

BrightImagine

Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing your research!

I think many of us who read Disney sites and boards have developed a cynicism that it's never gonna happen. But I for one would love more monorails. When articles were floating around about personal rapid transit (PRT), I always hoped WDW would go in that direction, because it would help them serve the many different destinations now in the resort. But... a monorail expansion would be just fine instead, thank you!
 

JLipnick

Well-Known Member
i spoke to one of the security guards by the bus stops at MK when we were there for one day in august and i asked him about the extra long buses. he said they were such a problem that they scrapped the idea of using them. hence why we try to stay at monorail resorts as much as possible especially with a 4 year old who can't walk.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
When Walt Disney built Disneyland, his brother Roy (who had always been the company's CEO, while Walt was the president) would not finance the monorail there either, using excuses similar to Eisner's). Walt, then, started WEDway Enterprises to build, own and operate the DL monorail. They also owned the MK WEDway PeopleMover at DL, the DL RR, the cable cars, and the Main Street Trolly system. Roy was wrong and all these transporation systems WEDway Enterprises owned turned a huge profit. Eventually, the Disney company would buy WEDway Enterprises from Walt and his family and merge it into the Walt Disney Company.
Wasn't this profit from the sale of the technology and not the actual operation of it?
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I see lots of coincidentally positive information for the OP's passion - yet not actual citations or proof of the assertions.

And on that note, I would like to announce I have today's winning lotto ticket.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Thank you for sharing your research!

I think many of us who read Disney sites and boards have developed a cynicism that it's never gonna happen. But I for one would love more monorails. When articles were floating around about personal rapid transit (PRT), I always hoped WDW would go in that direction, because it would help them serve the many different destinations now in the resort. But... a monorail expansion would be just fine instead, thank you!

By the way, the PRT system in West Virginia only cost $45 million to build. There's a 1.4 mile peoplemover system in a Texas community that cost the developers $45 million. The largest peoplemover system is the Miami Metromover with over 5 miles of track. That cost over $800 million and that was a government project. Government projects usually end up costing more than if a private developer had built it. So, complete monorail expansion at WDW would cost no more than $100 million, based on these examples. That's the price of an E-ticket, which Disney could afford. Not the billion dollar plus price tag we kept hearing...

I would like to see PRT too, but the tracks would have to be converted, and that would make the project too expensive. Interestingly, the Jacksonville Skyway was once a peoplemover, but it was converted into an automated monorail. Since Disney now plans on converting their monorail into an automated system, PRT-like service could be programmed into the system.
 

PhilharMagician

Well-Known Member
The future of WDW transportation is busses. Flexible and low cost. The monorails are sadly the opposite of this.

At this point I hope so.

I love staying @ the monorail resorts, but getting to Epcot can be a frustrating trip @ times. I cannot imagine if more stops and transfers were added. I have had a few trips between the CR and Epcot taking well over an hour because of train switching temporarily shutting down the lines. They are cool but not flexible.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
At this point I hope so.

I love staying @ the monorail resorts, but getting to Epcot can be a frustrating trip @ times. I cannot imagine if more stops and transfers were added. I have had a few trips between the CR and Epcot taking well over an hour because of train switching temporarily shutting down the lines. They are cool but not flexible.

If you read that interview I referenced, you will see that once the system is automated, the problems you mentioned will be a thing of the past.

I'll go on my PC later and post the images I referenced, as well as links to the articles I refer to. I'm on my iPhone typing this and this thing isn't letting me upload images!
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
By the way, the PRT system in West Virginia only cost $45 million to build. There's a 1.4 mile peoplemover system in a Texas community that cost the developers $45 million. The largest peoplemover system is the Miami Metromover with over 5 miles of track. That cost over $800 million and that was a government project. Government projects usually end up costing more than if a private developer had built it. So, complete monorail expansion at WDW would cost no more than $100 million, based on these examples. That's the price of an E-ticket, which Disney could afford. Not the billion dollar plus price tag we kept hearing...

I would like to see PRT too, but the tracks would have to be converted, and that would make the project too expensive. Interestingly, the Jacksonville Skyway was once a peoplemover, but it was converted into an automated monorail. Since Disney now plans on converting their monorail into an automated system, PRT-like service could be programmed into the system.
If that estimate was even remotely close to accurate Disney would have built it already.
 

Did Knee

Active Member
The OP says he has The 1992 monorail plan and the original blueprints for Epcot Center. How about posting these for us all to see?
 

PhilharMagician

Well-Known Member
If you read that interview I referenced, you will see that once the system is automated, the problems you mentioned will be a thing of the past.

I'll go on my PC later and post the images I referenced, as well as links to the articles I refer to. I'm on my iPhone typing this and this thing isn't letting me upload images!

I did read it and you are correct that the automation of the system would greatly reduce the downtime for the track switching, but extending the monorail would require more stations and transfers. A trip from the Contemporary would require 2 switches. Odds are that you will be waiting a couple of minutes for a train each time. I would prefer to wait 15 minutes fort a bus and then be at my destination in 6 minutes.

I would rather that the system would monitor all of the busstops for guests and put busses at the stops at more even intervals. It can very frustrating waiting for a MK bus and see 3 busses for DHS go through at your resort and 2 are empty. These and similar dispatching issues need to be corrected and can be done for far less cost and would yield a far more efficient system.
 

PhilharMagician

Well-Known Member
If that estimate was even remotely close to accurate Disney would have built it already.

You beat me to it.

It would cost more than that to add on to ties in the Epcot resorts and DHS by the time you add in the new trains, switches, Epcot terminal, resort stations, DHS station, track and infrastructure.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
If that estimate was even remotely close to accurate Disney would have built it already.

Yes, you would think, right? But, as I learned, it wasn't about cost, it was about justification of whatever it costs compared to how much money it will make. Since this is a guest service, it would not make money for the company, Eisner's management (wrongly) concluded. This was 1992, so the thinking was "we can use that money instead to build TZToT or RRRC", two excellent rides that will surely convince guests to stay that extra day and see DHS. I can see that logic, but they should have found the money elsewhere to also extend the monorail. Because now that they have attracted more people to stay at WDW, you want to make their stay as pleasant as possible so they want to return again and again. When a good part of your day is spent waiting on buses fight through traffic, the escape factor most want out of a vacation is no longer there. Fighting through traffic and the hyper exhaust of burning fossil fuels is part of the every day stress of routine life that vactioners intended on getting away from.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
You beat me to it.

It would cost more than that to add on to ties in the Epcot resorts and DHS by the time you add in the new trains, switches, Epcot terminal, resort stations, DHS station, track and infrastructure.
Correct. $100 million would barely scratch the surface of a monorail system that would just connect the 4 parks. Quite honestly, I would be shocked if they could connect the Epcot and DHS for that price.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
You beat me to it.

It would cost more than that to add on to ties in the Epcot resorts and DHS by the time you add in the new trains, switches, Epcot terminal, resort stations, DHS station, track and infrastructure.

The new trains are part of the current capital program to be completed in 2.5 years so that's not part of the cost.

The new lines (DTD and DHS) do not stop at any resort that I know of (still researching the DTD one) and both use the current EPCOT station that was designed for multiple lines. So, only two stations (that I know of) would need to get built. Also, since at least some foundation was already laid, the cost is even lower.

I suppose the resorts would get connected via peoplemovers at a later project. DAK could connect at ground level via light rail, which I believe is the current plan (still researching).
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
Yes, you would think, right? But, as I learned, it wasn't about cost, it was a out justification of whatever it costs compared to how much money it will make. Since this is a guest service, it would not make money for the company, Eisner's management (wrongly) concluded. This was 1992, so the thinking was "we can use that money instead to build TZToT or RRC, two excellent rides that will surely convince guests to stay that extra day and see DHS. I can see that logic, but they should have found the money elsewhere to also extend the monorail. Because now that they have attracted more people to stay at WDW, you want to make their stay as pleasant as possible so they want to return again and again. When a good part of your day is spent waiting on buses fight through traffic, the escape you want out if a vacation is no longer there. Fighting through traffic and the hyper exhaust of burning fossil fuels is part of the every day stress of routine life that vactioners intended on getting away from.
You still have not shown any numbers for how Disney can build miles upon miles of monorail track, stations and trains for $100 million. How much concrete and steel will be used? What are your labor numbers? How much do trains and computers cost?

If you could produce an accurate estimate of a resort wide monorail system that costs only $100 million, Disney would start construction tomorrow.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
You still have not shown any numbers for how Disney can build miles upon miles of monorail track, stations and trains for $100 million. How much concrete and steel will be used? What are your labor numbers? How much do trains and computers cost?

If you could produce an accurate estimate of a resort wide monorail system that costs only $100 million, Disney would start construction tomorrow.

Then, I have some work to do! I'm on it!
 

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