Yes, another monorail thread!

[PhilharMagician]

Not kidding. There was a bit of a hub-bub about it not too long ago. Plans included a direct off ramp form I-4 to a parking garage, monrail of some sort from the garage to DTD, and a complete reworking of DTD.

I missed that. What the heck are they thinking? There are acres of parking lot @ DTD that have not had cars parked on it ever on the West side. Without seeing any plans I just don't get why the parking would have to move. Hell, they cannot even fill the retail space there now let alone expand and add more to the shopping/dining district.

 

[wm49rs]

I missed that. What the heck are they thinking? There are acres of parking lot @ DTD that have not had cars parked on it ever on the West side. Without seeing any plans I just don't get why the parking would have to move. Hell, they cannot even fill the retail space there now let alone expand and add more to the shopping/dining district.

I think it's another situation of Disney having the plans, but not (at the moment) planning on using them. These rumors started back in April, and in the interim (as Steve noted) it appears they're moving forward with the busses. They tested the "bendy" ones not too long back, although I can't recall if they ended up purchasing some for the fleet or not. Either way, I don't believe you're going to see any extension of the monorail lines for some time to come.

 

[PhilharMagician]

Think of the two extensions as new stops, not as new lines. The DTD extension spurs off the EPCOT Center line. I don't know about the DHS one, as the map I got cuts off before the EPCOT Center terminus, but I do know the current EPCOT Center station has the platform already built for another line. Right now that platform is used as part of pedestrian ramp. My source on this is a web article and could be wrong as I have not yet found official documentation on this. Now, with at least the DTD stop spurring from the EPCOT Center line, no new platforms at EPCOT are even required (even if there already is one as claimed) and no new trains are required either. If the DHS extension is a new line, then a new train is required; if not, no new trains are required. I say this with the assumption that the new automated trains would be in service beforehand. I'm making this statement about the requirement of no new trains knowing this would not be true if non-automated trains were in use; the automated trains make this possible.

The West side of the Epcot station is the current unload for the Epcot/TTC line. The decent ramp from this runs perpendicular to the terminal and impedes the ability to put another line there. The exit ramp from the station would have to be moved. Also when you look at an overhead view you will see that the current Epcot monorail line runs dead center into the terminal which leaves no space on the West side to add another line to the current station. Again expansion would be required to handle another line.

If another line were to be added I would expect it to be done the same way that the Epcot line was added to the TTC. Which is to simply add another seperate station next to the existing one.

I would be suprised that they would not need more trains for added capacity. During the busy times there can be capacity issues with the current trains on the current lines. Add in more lines transporting more people and there will be even more capacity problems and less maintenance time. The automated well, semi-automated system they plan on implementing will do some to help, it is more on the line of increasing safety and not going to drastically increase capacity. The delays will always be guests having trouble entering and exiting the monorails. One of the best thing that could happen to increase capacity is to change the current door design on the monorails. Since the doors need to open out and drop down, there is no way to create a permanent ramp to allow handicapped guests and strollers to quickly load and unload.

 

[nor'easter]

The future of WDW transportation is busses. Flexible and low cost. The monorails are sadly the opposite of this.

Yeah, so is Walmart in the retail context. Add ugly.

Not saying you are not correct, but you seem to approve. WDW roads have turned the place into a suburban industrial park. BV Drive is incredibly congested. The busses detract, rather than add, to the atmosphere of the place. Fortunately, planners in successful cities knew better. In much of the US, unfortunately, the automobile is king.

 

[Texas84]

Makes sense to move the TTC to Downtown off I-4 even without monorail expansion. DL uses buses from their remote parking.

 

[PeterAlt]

There is expansion built into the EPCOT station footprint.

The Studios alignment you're talking about has been looked at multiple times over the years - it's the generally accepted alignment to Studios if this is ever to be built, although Soarin's in the way now and there would need to be a minor reroute. In the late 90s, one of the more recent serious looks at transportation on the property had this alignment from the EPCOT station expansion pad going by Seas through the gap between Imagination and Land (where the Soarin' show building is now) over to Studios, with a possible station pad for Yacht/Beach/BW/Swan/Dolphin and a likely continuation to Animal Kingdom. The company has also looked at utilizing light rail and other options.

Each new look takes the current needs of the property into account, and that changes, depending on what's being built, budgets, annual guest counts, who the current transpo execs are, governmental regulation, etc. I wouldn't take anything for granted until the permits are filed.

I'll add a bit on the thinking behind the planned-for expansion at the time, and how that ties to the EPCOT spur line that was incorporated into the blueprints for future expansion. In the early 70s, the company had grand plans for the Walt Disney World Village/LBV, including commercial space, residential, shopping and hotels, with multiple internal transportation modes, including scaled down monorail and PeopleMovers. There was still somewhat of a central plan to the property build out, centered around the intent that the FL property be a place where corporates, academia and government could come together to discuss problems of the day. (Something Walt supposedly passed down to the execs who knew him, including Nunis, Walker and Miller.) The thought was recreation was first (Magic Kingdom), then the community (Village) and the Center (EPCOT). All were to be linked by internal transportation, which at the time had monorail and PeopleMovers at the forefront. The expansion of the Walt Disney World Village was put on hold when EPCOT went forward. The footers for the spur line were poured within the confines of the construction zone, as was prudent, since they were already pouring them for the loop. There were no footers poured on the west side, as there was no need. Construction also lost a few of the piers to the soft lake-bed by Odyssey. When EPCOT was completed, after many rounds of changes, there was a plan in place for a large expansion to the Village, with a full New Orleans street section leading from the Empress Lilly to a New Orleans themed resort, including new shopping, dining and entertainment, plus expansion of the conference center and the treehouse villa condos. The plan in the fall of 1982 included a 2 mile double beam from EPCOT to the Village, with a new station at the Village. The Village was looked at quite differently back then, though, and the expansion of the monorail was considered a big marketing point. Then management changed, and all of the expansion plans changed with it.

Wow, thank you for that! Do you have any information on what the alignment was for the LBV spur between the EPCOT construction zone and LBV? Looking at an aerial map, it looks like it would cut through that golf course if it connected in a straight line. That doesn't seem right, since the monorail trains could be hit by golf balls. Aligning it so it dips down to Typhoon Lagoon before passing through DTD West Side and looping back to EPCOT along LBV Boulevard seems to make the most sense, if it is ever built. I still would like to know the original "missing" alignment was.

Also, the DHS line shows a non-looping route. Was the plan not to have it loop but to reverse direction at each end?

 

[PeterAlt]

There is expansion built into the EPCOT station footprint.

The Studios alignment you're talking about has been looked at multiple times over the years - it's the generally accepted alignment to Studios if this is ever to be built, although Soarin's in the way now and there would need to be a minor reroute. In the late 90s, one of the more recent serious looks at transportation on the property had this alignment from the EPCOT station expansion pad going by Seas through the gap between Imagination and Land (where the Soarin' show building is now) over to Studios, with a possible station pad for Yacht/Beach/BW/Swan/Dolphin and a likely continuation to Animal Kingdom. The company has also looked at utilizing light rail and other options.

Each new look takes the current needs of the property into account, and that changes, depending on what's being built, budgets, annual guest counts, who the current transpo execs are, governmental regulation, etc. I wouldn't take anything for granted until the permits are filed.

I'll add a bit on the thinking behind the planned-for expansion at the time, and how that ties to the EPCOT spur line that was incorporated into the blueprints for future expansion. In the early 70s, the company had grand plans for the Walt Disney World Village/LBV, including commercial space, residential, shopping and hotels, with multiple internal transportation modes, including scaled down monorail and PeopleMovers. There was still somewhat of a central plan to the property build out, centered around the intent that the FL property be a place where corporates, academia and government could come together to discuss problems of the day. (Something Walt supposedly passed down to the execs who knew him, including Nunis, Walker and Miller.) The thought was recreation was first (Magic Kingdom), then the community (Village) and the Center (EPCOT). All were to be linked by internal transportation, which at the time had monorail and PeopleMovers at the forefront. The expansion of the Walt Disney World Village was put on hold when EPCOT went forward. The footers for the spur line were poured within the confines of the construction zone, as was prudent, since they were already pouring them for the loop. There were no footers poured on the west side, as there was no need. Construction also lost a few of the piers to the soft lake-bed by Odyssey. When EPCOT was completed, after many rounds of changes, there was a plan in place for a large expansion to the Village, with a full New Orleans street section leading from the Empress Lilly to a New Orleans themed resort, including new shopping, dining and entertainment, plus expansion of the conference center and the treehouse villa condos. The plan in the fall of 1982 included a 2 mile double beam from EPCOT to the Village, with a new station at the Village. The Village was looked at quite differently back then, though, and the expansion of the monorail was considered a big marketing point. Then management changed, and all of the expansion plans changed with it.

I forgot to ask...

The DTD spur... Are the current EPCOT Center track where the switch would go equipped with partial switches, or would they need to rebuild that section of track?

If the DHS line were a people mover, could it run on the roof of Soaring and use the original route, or over Soaring (play on words not intended) as a monorail? A cool thing about people movers is that it can run on the roofs of buildings, thereby eliminating some of the cost to elevate it.

 

[PeterAlt]

The West side of the Epcot station is the current unload for the Epcot/TTC line. The decent ramp from this runs perpendicular to the terminal and impedes the ability to put another line there. The exit ramp from the station would have to be moved. Also when you look at an overhead view you will see that the current Epcot monorail line runs dead center into the terminal which leaves no space on the West side to add another line to the current station. Again expansion would be required to handle another line.

If another line were to be added I would expect it to be done the same way that the Epcot line was added to the TTC. Which is to simply add another seperate station next to the existing one.

I would be suprised that they would not need more trains for added capacity. During the busy times there can be capacity issues with the current trains on the current lines. Add in more lines transporting more people and there will be even more capacity problems and less maintenance time. The automated well, semi-automated system they plan on implementing will do some to help, it is more on the line of increasing safety and not going to drastically increase capacity. The delays will always be guests having trouble entering and exiting the monorails. One of the best thing that could happen to increase capacity is to change the current door design on the monorails. Since the doors need to open out and drop down, there is no way to create a permanent ramp to allow handicapped guests and strollers to quickly load and unload.

No, the unused platform is for a line running east-west, not the north-south one you're thinking. This would be perfect for a single train line on a single non-looping track with two stations. It runs from this unused platform and then runs behind Living Seas and The Land to DHS.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

When EPCOT was completed, after many rounds of changes, there was a plan in place for a large expansion to the Village, with a full New Orleans street section leading from the Empress Lilly to a New Orleans themed resort, including new shopping, dining and entertainment,

[...]

Then management changed, and all of the expansion plans changed with it.

See, now this is where it all went downhill with the universe and where we set course on a path that will end with the inevitable destruction of the world in December 2012.


Imagine...the Empress to fulfill her destiny, by making her the centerpiece of a New Orleans area. The Empress as 'the castle at the end of New Orleans Main Street'. The centre of a bustling, vibrant area. Jazz, music, elegance, all set within a tranquil natural setting with lakes and streams. Divine.

Then imagine a direct monorail link between EPCOT and the Empress Lilly. Heaven itself.

 

[PeterAlt]

See, now this is where it all went downhill with the universe and where we set course on a path that will end with the inevitable destruction of the world in December 2012.


Imagine...the Empress to fulfill her destiny, by making her the centerpiece of a New Orleans area. The Empress as 'the castle at the end of New Orleans Main Street'. The centre of a bustling, vibrant area. Jazz, music, elegance, all set within a tranquil natural setting with lakes and streams. Divine.

Then imagine a direct monorail link between EPCOT and the Empress Lilly. Heaven itself.

Found:

http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2012/07/lake-buena-vistas-lost-crescent-city.html

 

[docnabox]

Hi, forgive me if I missed this somewhere in the thread, but am I the only one that noticed a story in the news section on the right of the page earlier this week about transportation at WDW? I was at work like I am now and only glanced at it briefly but I remember it as being an excerpt of an interview with someone involved with transportation that spoke of several options WDW was looking at to reduce reliance on buses, among them monorail expansion. I thought at the time that it was likely to re-ignite the discussions in the forums and then did not really see anything for a while until this thread popped up. Now, I don't even see the news story any more but I admit, I only had a little time between patients to check. I don't think I imagined it, but who knows?

 

[PeterAlt]

Hi, forgive me if I missed this somewhere in the thread, but am I the only one that noticed a story in the news section on the right of the page earlier this week about transportation at WDW? I was at work like I am now and only glanced at it briefly but I remember it as being an excerpt of an interview with someone involved with transportation that spoke of several options WDW was looking at to reduce reliance on buses, among them monorail expansion. I thought at the time that it was likely to re-ignite the discussions in the forums and then did not really see anything for a while until this thread popped up. Now, I don't even see the news story any more but I admit, I only had a little time between patients to check. I don't think I imagined it, but who knows?

Thanks for pointing that out! I have not seen it and would like to see it! Please repost it! Someone, someone, any one...

 

[PeterAlt]

Hey, all... Just read this article about the Jacksonville Skyway automated monorail system. It is VERY relevant to what we are discussing here, since in 2.5 years our system will be very similar, technology wise. The author makes a strong case that expanding their system would be less costly than building or expanding other types if systems, including people movers and BRT (Bus Rapid Transit... YUCK)! I'm not sold that monorail is better or less expensive to build as people movers, like the author claims, but we're stuck with a monorail system at WDW, so that's what we have to work with going forward...

Here's the link:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-re-evaluating-the-skyway

 

[bubbles1812]

Yeah, so is Walmart in the retail context. Add ugly.

Not saying you are not correct, but you seem to approve. WDW roads have turned the place into a suburban industrial park. BV Drive is incredibly congested. The busses detract, rather than add, to the atmosphere of the place. Fortunately, planners in successful cities knew better. In much of the US, unfortunately, the automobile is king.

Where did you get that he approved of it? He said the monorails are "sadly opposite of this." That doesn't tell me he approves of the buses. But it's just reality. The buses are flexible and certainly much more low cost than building more monorail. It's just reality. Disney is not going to be building more monorail.

 

[wm49rs]

Where did you get that he approved of it? He said the monorails are "sadly opposite of this." That doesn't tell me he approves of the buses. But it's just reality. The buses are flexible and certainly much more low cost than building more monorail. It's just reality. Disney is not going to be building more monorail.

Precisely. They may order more trains, but they're not going to be expanding the lines....

 

[articos]

Wow, thank you for that! Do you have any information on what the alignment was for the LBV spur between the EPCOT construction zone and LBV? Looking at an aerial map, it looks like it would cut through that golf course if it connected in a straight line. That doesn't seem right, since the monorail trains could be hit by golf balls. Aligning it so it dips down to Typhoon Lagoon before passing through DTD West Side and looping back to EPCOT along LBV Boulevard seems to make the most sense, if it is ever built. I still would like to know the original "missing" alignment was.

Also, the DHS line shows a non-looping route. Was the plan not to have it loop but to reverse direction at each end?

You're welcome. If you haven't already, take a closer look here, within the post you found: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jRP_NS9VNmM/UAHwUQ-WqDI/AAAAAAAACzI/UuobXHBsffc/s1600/LBVPplan.jpg. You can see the monorail alignment follows Buena Vista Drive. This plan is pre-EPCOT/pre-most everything in the early/mid-70's, though, so things would change somewhat as the property was built out. The alignment wouldn't be allowed to cross any of the golf courses. I'll come back with answers to the other questions/posts later tonight or tomorrow. Studios plan would likely now change from the plan of previous years as there's now a final link to AK and AKL. If it ever comes to pass, I'd bet on a double beam with a loop at the end, likely through or near one of the savannahs, like the FW loop that ends the line at EPCOT. That's just speculation, however.

 

[articos]

I forgot to ask...

The DTD spur... Are the current EPCOT Center track where the switch would go equipped with partial switches, or would they need to rebuild that section of track?

If the DHS line were a people mover, could it run on the roof of Soaring and use the original route, or over Soaring (play on words not intended) as a monorail? A cool thing about people movers is that it can run on the roofs of buildings, thereby eliminating some of the cost to elevate it.

I'll answer this one too really quickly. No switches in EPCOT. There are several areas that were originally planned to be able to handle the equipment/weight load/clearances if they were added in the future, which never came to pass. RE: Soarin', that building was built strictly as a show building, based on the CA plans modified to fit the footprint of the FL location. It would not be able to support the infrastructure of anything like a PeopleMover without changes. It's essentially a large hanger over where the domes are. Random fact, Communicore East and West were built with a second story to support a PeopleMover and station. That said, I highly doubt any transport to Studios or AK would be a PM in today's world.

 

[Clever Name]

Let's not forget that the monorail is 100% electric powered. WDW buys most of its electricity from TECO Energy which generates most of its power from coal fired plants. TECO is listed as the 37th largest corporate producer of air pollution in the USA. As a result, the monorail system is a major source of air pollution in the USA. Just due to the massive pollution problems alone, they will never expand the system. Buses are the future of transportation at WDW.

 

[articos]

See, now this is where it all went downhill with the universe and where we set course on a path that will end with the inevitable destruction of the world in December 2012.


Imagine...the Empress to fulfill her destiny, by making her the centerpiece of a New Orleans area. The Empress as 'the castle at the end of New Orleans Main Street'. The centre of a bustling, vibrant area. Jazz, music, elegance, all set within a tranquil natural setting with lakes and streams. Divine.

Then imagine a direct monorail link between EPCOT and the Empress Lilly. Heaven itself.

Hah. WED's people were very proud of the Empress Lilly. And many of the executive team in the 70s felt that New Orleans Square was one of the best themed spots in Disneyland, and they wanted to bring that to and expand it in Florida. Sadly, never happened. The art was shelved, then brought back out to be the basis for Port Orleans years later. Not quite the same, but at least something was built. Oddly, when the Magic Kingdom was planned, New Orleans was purposefully left out as it was felt it wasn't special enough, being within a day's drive of the property. Management regretted that decision afterwards.

 

[PhilharMagician]

No, the unused platform is for a line running east-west, not the north-south one you're thinking. This would be perfect for a single train line on a single non-looping track with two stations. It runs from this unused platform and then runs behind Living Seas and The Land to DHS.

Where is this east to west platform?

Can you post a pic explaining. I am not getting where this platform is for the DHS line