Work Tractor Collides with Monorail Lime

[sweetpee_1993]

We get them on the ships sometimes just looking around! They are not involved in the ship operations or crew, but stevedore operations, loading or unloading cargo, preventative is a big part of there operations

Same on construction sites and in refineries.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Since other then being an occasional visitor, I'm not sure what the hell business it is of anyone other then internal management. No passengers were involved, the parks were closed, the monorail technically did not have an accident, it was struck by another vehicle which, in all likelihood would not be there under normal operating conditions. What says that they accept things like that when they happen, as being OK. What the conversation has been about is trying to establish some sort of liability on Disney's part in conjunction with the constant "poor management" agenda that is foremost in everyone's mind. (Here at least) For this topic it is a crock of garbage.

Having been in the transportation business for a number of years, I can tell you that any accident any driver was ever in, where it looked like the fault was with the driver, the first words out of that persons mouth were... "the brakes didn't work". I don't remember a single time when that scenario played true.

Seriously, this is a non-issue. It really isn't worthy of mention much less all this conversation. Damage happened to the Monorail, it will be repaired, if it hasn't already and life will go on. The transformation of mole hills to mountains is almost an obsession lately.

THIS!...AKK

 

[lazyboy97o]

@flynnibus , I'm quite interested in the article's assertion that the tractor was moving downhill and had a brake failure. What secondary braking systems would the tractors have? Do the monorails have them? I reeeeeaally hope these secondary systems exist. If there is a secondary braking system, why didn't it immediately stop the tractor before the collision??? I think I see this same thought trail in your posts.

A fail-safe break would need to be turned off and is not a new concept. (Note: I do not know what type of breaks are on the tractors) Imagine the opposite of your car where in order to go you have to press the brake pedal and if you take your foot off the brakes are applied.

 

[flynnibus]

@flynnibus , I'm quite interested in the article's assertion that the tractor was moving downhill and had a brake failure. What secondary braking systems would the tractors have? Do the monorails have them? I reeeeeaally hope these secondary systems exist. If there is a secondary braking system, why didn't it immediately stop the tractor before the collision??? I think I see this same thought trail in your posts.

The thing is big... I have no doubt that even under low speeds it could deliver quite a 'through punch' to the fragile monorail cone. Fat things like to keep moving even after impact But to the earlier question about the drive train... if it were direct drive shouldn't they have engine braking they could have used? I guess that infers electric drive motors. Honestly we have such little information I don't think it's healthy to speculate what the solution is... but I do take notice to arguments that it is no big deal. This is a transit system, not you playing with a forklift in your backyard. And given the recent scrutiny on the department, it's kind of shocking if they do operate without additional fail safes even on the maintenance vehicle given they are out on the main line with the passenger vehicles. Which is why I said, how many fail safes would have failed for this to happen? Questioning, what is their operational design here.

If I was speculating.. I'm sure the tractor is purely manual, and they've always operated under reasonable limits when it comes to speed and policies when it comes to approaching trains. But if a single failure can lead to significiant property damage and put workers at risk.. I'd be questioning why you operate so loose.

Personally I hate over regulation and over bearing policies... but I also am not generally dealing with life-threatening equipment/scenarios.

 

[SoupBone]

Absolutely. This is why big companies hire safety personnel to keep an eye on things. I worked as a safety tech on an LNG terminal construction project. I wasn't there because an accident had happened. I was there to ensure OSHA regs were followed to a "T" in order to keep our workers safe as well as the company free of penalties for failure to observe regulations. Looooots of paperwork. Meetings. Reports. Forms. Always watching to keep workers safe before anything happened. A near miss is SERIOUS. Not to be taken lightly at all.

Yeah most companies that are serious about safety consider near misses a serious issue as well. I admittedly know very little about Disney's safety division, but I'm sure the aren't taking this incident very lightly, especially after the fatality a few years ago (completely different circumstances I know).

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Since other then being an occasional visitor, I'm not sure what the hell business it is of anyone other then internal management. No passengers were involved, the parks were closed, the monorail technically did not have an accident, it was struck by another vehicle which, in all likelihood would not be there under normal operating conditions. What says that they accept things like that when they happen, as being OK. What the conversation has been about is trying to establish some sort of liability on Disney's part in conjunction with the constant "poor management" agenda that is foremost in everyone's mind. (Here at least) For this topic it is a crock of garbage.

Having been in the transportation business for a number of years, I can tell you that any accident any driver was ever in, where it looked like the fault was with the driver, the first words out of that persons mouth were... "the brakes didn't work". I don't remember a single time when that scenario played true.

Seriously, this is a non-issue. It really isn't worthy of mention much less all this conversation. Damage happened to the Monorail, it will be repaired, if it hasn't already and life will go on. The transformation of mole hills to mountains is almost an obsession lately.

I hear ya. I get what you're saying. But, you know, this IS a fan forum where internal workings are often discussed in great detail. One could argue its none of our business, as guests, to know how long the character sets are for the "friends" who facilitate all those meet-n-greets but its of interest so it'll get discussed.

I'm not personally asserting that this particular monorail tractor incident is a direct failure on Disney's behalf. It does kinda get me thinking what secondary systems these vehicles have, etc. mostly because its interesting and I like to know this stuff. It's the nerd in me. The safety aspect for the workers also is of interest because I worked directly with these types of things and safety procedure is such a big part of my husband's work in refineries and other facilities. From that perspective I find even near misses, procedure, etc. interesting. Definitely worthy of harmless conversation.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Yeah most companies that are serious about safety consider near misses a serious issue as well. I admittedly know very little about Disney's safety division, but I'm sure the aren't taking this incident very lightly, especially after the fatality a few years ago (completely different circumstances I know).

Oh I know! Right?! I was thinking their safety guys are prob'ly all over this incident. I'd love to know more about their procedures! Its interesting to me!

 

[SoupBone]

THIS!...AKK

I don't think anyone is making a huge deal out of it, but I find this topic interesting because it's not something that happens all that often (thankfully).

 

[Goofyernmost]

I hear ya. I get what you're saying. But, you know, this IS a fan forum where internal workings are often discussed in great detail. One could argue its none of our business, as guests, to know how long the character sets are for the "friends" who facilitate all those meet-n-greets but its of interest so it'll get discussed.

I'm not personally asserting that this particular monorail tractor incident is a direct failure on Disney's behalf. It does kinda get me thinking what secondary systems these vehicles have, etc. mostly because its interesting and I like to know this stuff. It's the nerd in me. The safety aspect for the workers also is of interest because I worked directly with these types of things and safety procedure is such a big part of my husband's work in refineries and other facilities. From that perspective I find even near misses, procedure, etc. interesting. Definitely worthy of harmless conversation.

Of interest is far different then, let's speculate who or what happened and twist and turn it to be, once again, the evil, money grubbing Disney company, either not complying with safety systems or not maintaining the equipment. Also putting it in such a way that it is enormously more important then knocking the mirror off your car when you back out of your garage. This, unless it is revealed that some criminal act took place, has exactly the same degree of importance.

 

[flynnibus]

Since other then being an occasional visitor, I'm not sure what the hell business it is of anyone other then internal management

That's interesting.. I thought we were on a Disney discussion forum.. not a Disney customer service site. We discuss Disney the organization, not just what impacts us as a customer.

No passengers were involved, the parks were closed, the monorail technically did not have an accident, it was struck by another vehicle which, in all likelihood would not be there under normal operating conditions. What says that they accept things like that when they happen, as being OK

People like you who say 'its nothing..' when two several ton things not made to make contact collide. If one of the workers was thrown from the tractor and fell to his death, would that reclassify the incident for you in your mind as now being an 'accident'? Even tho the actual incident were the same?

What the conversation has been about is trying to establish some sort of liability on Disney's part in conjunction with the constant "poor management" agenda that is foremost in everyone's mind. (Here at least) For this topic it is a crock of garbage.

The point of procedures, policies, and rules are to ensure this doesn't happen. When it does, it's natural to question if this was a NEW condition not considered, or if extenuating circumstances exceeded the designed safeties, or if they were insufficient?

Operator error still falls into one of those categories. You try to avoid scenarios that rely solely on the operator to avoid collisions.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

@flynnibus , tell me about it! Hubby gripes constantly about the insane minute safety procedures they have to deal with to go into a non-operating unit to grab a measurement. He gets so mad. I typically let him cool down before even thinking of attempting to reason that ya gotta follow the same procedures in operating and non-operating units to form & maintain consistent safe practices. The moment you leave a variable on the table some dumb*** is gonna come along and get themselves and/or others killed. He knows. It's just not fun to go thru an hour of safety crap to accomplish a 2 minute task.

In the case of this whole tractor thing, maybe its best to utilize the same safe practices whether guests are in the monorails or not. Just talkin, fellas, so don't get your drawers in a twist. It is a valid point that (hopefully) the operation of any vehicle on the monorail beam is always as if guests were present. Not that employees are any less valuable as humans. Ya know?

 

[SoupBone]

@flynnibus , tell me about it! Hubby gripes constantly about the insane minute safety procedures they have to deal with to go into a non-operating unit to grab a measurement. He gets so mad. I typically let him cool down before even thinking of attempting to reason that ya gotta follow the same procedures in operating and non-operating units to form & maintain consistent safe practices. The moment you leave a variable on the table some dumb*** is gonna come along and get themselves and/or others killed. He knows. It's just not fun to go thru an hour of safety crap to accomplish a 2 minute task.

In the case of this whole tractor thing, maybe its best to utilize the same safe practices whether guests are in the monorails or not. Just talkin, fellas, so don't get your drawers in a twist. It is a valid point that (hopefully) the operation of any vehicle on the monorail beam is always as if guests were present. Not that employees are any less valuable as humans. Ya know?

If you've ever seen the 1910 and 1926 CFR 29 books (which are huge), every regulation in there is because someone either died or was seriously injured. It's kind of morbid, but I always think about that when people get upset at how many regulations exist in both general industry and construction.

 

[Goofyernmost]

That's interesting.. I thought we were on a Disney discussion forum.. not a Disney customer service site. We discuss Disney the organization, not just what impacts us as a customer.

We are, but when we venture into areas that we have no experience in or knowledge of and get all worked up over something like that it only serves as an attempt to place a negativity on what should be nothing other then an irrelevant event.

People like you who say 'its nothing..' when two several ton things not made to make contact collide. If one of the workers was thrown from the tractor and fell to his death, would that reclassify the incident for you in your mind as now being an 'accident'? Even tho the actual incident were the same?

But that didn't happen did it? It's a minor fender bender that for all we know was totally the fault of the operator. It's not worthy of discussion simply because there are no facts to work with, only hear say. I don't attempt to correct you on your vast knowledge of programing and system procedures because I have no experience in that area. I do have some in this area, and unless something is revealed, which it won't be, all this speculation is just so much panic inducing crap. What happened to that stuff after the park closed has absolutely no bearing on any fan base that isn't trying to place blame when perhaps, there is none. If we have to have a discussion on everything that happens in the process of keeping the parks operating, should we have discussions about a plumber that cut his finger changing a faucet? Even if it turned out that the brakes didn't work, it is an inherent problem with mechanical equipment that sometimes just happens.

The point of procedures, policies, and rules are to ensure this doesn't happen. When it does, it's natural to question if this was a NEW condition not considered, or if extenuating circumstances exceeded the designed safeties, or if they were insufficient?

Operator error still falls into one of those categories. You try to avoid scenarios that rely solely on the operator to avoid collisions.

You know as well as I do that whenever the human factor is introduced the only way to avoid, any possible problems, with moving vehicles would be to weld them to the rail. Chances are the procedures are already establish, people, on the other hand, do not have internal controls that stops them from doing stupid things and not following procedures. If operating a vehicle the safety procedure would be to allow time and space to prevent that from happening. This cost Disney a lot of cash, and we know how TDO feels about spending money. I'll guarantee you that they will get to the bottom of it and issue orders on how to avoid any future situation.You also know that there are many situations that have to rely solely on the actions of operators to avoid problems. It is unreasonable to expect a perfect world, even in Disney. There is always a way for the human race to screw things up. The best that can happen then is that they can react after the fact, because if all the rules that were in place already were followed, it would never have become an issue.

 

[flynnibus]

You know as well as I do that whenever the human factor is introduced the only way to avoid, any possible problems, with moving vehicles would be to weld them to the rail

And the only way to prevent a plane crash is for it to never leave the ground. But that doesn't keep us from designing processes and safeties to ensure a plane is safer than simply relying on the operator alone.

You keep going to extremes to try to prove something while ignoring everything in the middle which is where the real world operates. I tire of explaining layers of safety over and over with you. Driving a bus or your car at home is not given the same type of variability and single layer of safety as dealing with rolling stock.

 

[Goofyernmost]

And the only way to prevent a plane crash is for it to never leave the ground. But that doesn't keep us from designing processes and safeties to ensure a plane is safer than simply relying on the operator alone.

You keep going to extremes to try to prove something while ignoring everything in the middle which is where the real world operates. I tire of explaining layers of safety over and over with you. Driving a bus or your car at home is not given the same type of variability and single layer of safety as dealing with rolling stock.

And you keep staying with one theme without attempting to plug in realities, so I guess we are even.

This incident, as we know it, has absolutely nothing to do with rolling stock. It isn't involving passengers and it is no more then moving a vehicle from one place to another. Driving a bus or your car at home is far more crucial for safety systems then this is. Let's get priorities straight. You do not ever have to explain safety procedures to me, I used to teach them to drivers. I am not a child in need of your advice. You have a vast knowledge on many things, but, this isn't one of them.

If systems need to be designed then lets discuss what can be done with your personal vehicle to prevent you from screwing up big time and dealing with vehicles running at high speed withing a few feet of each other, totally relying on individual humans to be sure that they stay there. That's something that needs much improvement. Running a monorail tractor that probably never gets above 35 miles an hour is a very low priority in the over all scope of things that need attention. Try and blow it up as much as you like, it is still a minor nothing with no harm done other then a cosmetic damage.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

And the only way to prevent a plane crash is for it to never leave the ground. But that doesn't keep us from designing processes and safeties to ensure a plane is safer than simply relying on the operator alone.

You keep going to extremes to try to prove something while ignoring everything in the middle which is where the real world operates. I tire of explaining layers of safety over and over with you. Driving a bus or your car at home is not given the same type of variability and single layer of safety as dealing with rolling stock.

Flynn.............I understand your points on safety........100% with you on that.

However the point here is we don't have the details., what happened and why and the actual operating and design of the mule and the safety and operational rules the CM's go by.

You can't assume *loose* or faulty operation or mechanical failure or that there is not multi layers of safety, which I would find hard to believe with the many government and safety reviews these systems go though, with out knowing the facts.

Thier history in operating the Monorail system, with its excellent safety record (with MILLOINS and MILLOINS of safe passenger trips/miles) would indicate a well operated and designed system. Much, Much better then most if not all cities.

The only thing we know is a fender bender and fiberglass cosmetic damage was done. There is no announcements by any safety group or OSHA that its anything more then a accident, maybe nothing more then human error. Believe me, if there was, OSHA would be all over the media with reports and the media would be doing the same. It not fair to imply there is a problem with the operational, design or safety procedures the mule operates under without facts and not guess work.

AKK

 

[Monorail_Red]

So I had only enough time to read through the first two pages this morning...so I apologize if I'm a bit late to the game here.

All I can say is I'm glad the WDW monorail dept do not fly planes or operate airports.

Personally I am offended by this statement, while air operations are a completely different skillset to have - monorail CM's are very capable for the most part and do a heck of a job for the compensation they receive. Shame on you for making this statement.

Cab from teal is being swapped onto lime tomorrow night.. it will then enter the paint shop.. and be re striped as lime.. teal with then be repaired at a flower pace... There is some morbid irony to the whole thing.... The cab being moved to lime will be one its 3rd train in 5 years....

I would like to know where you got this information from. Swapping the leading/trailing cars around is much easier said than done. It took a few months for them to do this with Teal back in 2009, and even that was a rush job. Regarding the cab being moved onto the 3rd train, that statement is NOT ACCURATE. Teal is made up of cars 1-5 of Pink and 6 of Purple. If this alleged incident were true, this means Car 1 was damaged on Lime and swapped with Car 1 Pink/Teal so it would be the first swap for that particular car.

When you have been on a monorail where CMs had to leapingly slam their bodies into the doors to close them, you hope everything gets blown out of proportion.

The system simply isn't safe any more.

I dread a major problem and fear what that major problem could be.

I wouldn't gauge the door operations based on the safety of the system. The doors are extremely sensitive to objects that may prevent the door from closing safely. This in itself is a SAFETY FEATURE. If it is windy or something like that, even I had to help the doors close but when they close they latch and are locked tight. The system is extremely safe, statistically you are safer onboard a monorail than you are standing on the ground.

I believe that the brakes could fail on the tractor. Generally, those things stop on a dime. I'd be interested to see a picture. It's not the first time a tractor hit a train, either. Let's try not to blow this TOO much out of proportion.

They can stop on a dime, and if its true that the tractor lost its brakes going down the hill, there is a serious opportunity for momentum to be picked up. In other words, in theory the damage would have to be much more significant if that is what happened.

 

[Monorail_Red]

But possibly being operated by a third party contractor, as they've been using it to tow their construction rig around the track recently. We saw them using it at the GF this past week while they were replacing the bus bar. They used a tractor to tug around their fancy rig, which had no power of its own.

To my knowledge the tractor itself is always operated by a WDW maintenance CM, but possibly with the 3rd party on board.

No electri. All diesel. Power is killed completely in the area on the beam when the tow tractor is out.

FALSE. The tractor can operate on a "hot" beamway with power.

Hydrostatic drive or gear driven?

I believe 3 forward and 3 reverse. I could be wrong or that could be the two original tractors, maybe the 3rd tractor is a bit different.

since its drive system is like the monorail, i would place it as a diesel/electric. electric motors at the hubs driven by a diesel powerplant turning a generator.

No, it is not diesel/electric, just diesel.

they are only out there running on the beam that has no power to the pickups, and no power to the MAPO system... how would the system protect the tractor from collisions?

The tractor is manually driven, just like a tow truck or any other vehicle on the road.

Form what I can find, this is a *fender Bender* accident. it looks nasty but is mostly cosmetic.

Considering the millions of guests who travel the monorail they have a very.............very high safety record.

As to the monorail operational practices and regulations, we only have a report of a possible brake failure, that makes it a accident, just I would bet almost all of us have had at some time. Accidents happen!

Now there is Flynn's point which has merit, the stink is in the air and some people will never accept that it very well was just a accident. It is that perceptive that some people will remember, not the true when it comes out.......if it comes out.

As to scrutiny, I don't see any, except for here.

Personally I feel this is a mountain from a mole hill issue.

AKK

^ This just about sums it up IMO.

 

[asianway]

Has a single "blog" even reported this? Shocked considering how they harvest info from magic. Then again this does tend to paint their employer in a bad light

 

[ford91exploder]

Brakes that are engaged by default and require an active source to disengage.

Like the deadman's switch on diesel locomotives, requires the engineer to keep the switch engaged manually or full braking is applied to the train.