Work Tractor Collides with Monorail Lime

[Tonka's Skipper]

Form what I can find, this is a *fender Bender* accident. it looks nasty but is mostly cosmetic.

Considering the millions of guests who travel the monorail they have a very.............very high safety record.

As to the monorail operational practices and regulations, we only have a report of a possible brake failure, that makes it a accident, just I would bet almost all of us have had at some time. Accidents happen!

Now there is Flynn's point which has merit, the stink is in the air and some people will never accept that it very well was just a accident. It is that perceptive that some people will remember, not the true when it comes out.......if it comes out.

As to scrutiny, I don't see any, except for here.

Personally I feel this is a mountain from a mole hill issue.

AKK

 

[note2001]

The only issue I have with this is that those nose cones on the trains seem to be more fragile than eggshells. Everyone understands that the trains are never to touch anything, not each other, not a wall, and certainly, not a heavy steel tractor. Yet, accidents still happen and despite all efforts, no one will ever be able to reduce the risk down to zero.

Unless I'm reading this wrong, it sounds like this minor incident took out the electronics. Seems like something needs to be done to reinforce those nosecones to protect the valuable contents: human, electrical and mechanical. Not sure who builds the trains themselves, but since they have a working relationship with the company already, I think Disney should consider getting GM involved. They have all the resources needed to figure out a lightweight, replaceable exterior that will protect yet still look good.

 

[flynnibus]

As to the monorail operational practices and regulations, we only have a report of a possible brake failure, that makes it a accident, just I would bet almost all of us have had at some time. Accidents happen!

Yes, but systems of this level of scrutiny are supposed to operate within procedures and enough fail-safes to prevent failures from turning into accidents.

From it's history, it sounds like the tractor is used way more 'loose' while out on the beam and lacks the safety fail safes necessary to prevent collisions.. relying instead solely on the operators.

 

[dstrawn9889]

they are only out there running on the beam that has no power to the pickups, and no power to the MAPO system... how would the system protect the tractor from collisions?

 

[flynnibus]

they are only out there running on the beam that has no power to the pickups, and no power to the MAPO system... how would the system protect the tractor from collisions?

1 - Procedure and operating rules
2 - any other type of distance detection system besides MAPO (optical, acoustic, radio, lots of options)
3 - require any movement within a detection require an override and have different operating parameters in that mode

Lots of directions one can take. The moonrails are powered down, not invisible.

 

[SoupBone]

Personally, I think if OSHA waited for a serious injury to get involved with any employer, not just Disney, then shame on them for being a day late and a dollar short. Their business is to ensure workers safety, not identify why they were maimed or killed. Yes?

I read that neither of the tractor operators were injured. However, if there truly was a brake failure the potential was certainly there and I wouldn't be surprised if OSHA did step in to sniff around. It IS the responsibility of the employer to provide safe working environments as well as properly maintained (read: safe) equipment. If there was a brake failure and nobody was injured this would be considered a near miss. Things OSHA might look for would be why the brakes failed on the tractor: insufficiently maintained, operator error, lack of sufficient training, maintenance logs, what hours the operators had been keeping, who maintains the tractors, etc. OSHA might also question if there was a backup braking system in place (like an E-brake on a car) and, if so, why that either failed or was not used (reverting back to lack of training, fatigue, etc). There's a million ways to look at this, really. Certainly OSHA would be within their duties to have a gander at this incident.

OSHA'S core mission is most definitely to protect America's workers, I'm just talking about this particular incident. I'm sure that they make regular inspections on Disney property or their state equivalent does. It's definitely not just an after the fact agency.

My whole interest in this thread was if OSHA has any authority, which has been debated back and forth. You can bet that if the accident itself is a DOT only event, at some point in the daily operations of that equipment (lockout/tagout, safety harnesses,hardhats, etc.) OSHA does have some jurisdiction, even if it's limited.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

OSHA'S core mission is most definitely to protect America's workers, I'm just talking about this particular incident. I'm sure that they make regular inspections on Disney property or their state equivalent does. It's definitely not just an after the fact agency.

My whole interest in this thread was if OSHA has any authority, which has been debated back and forth. You can bet that if the accident itself is a DOT only event, at some point in the daily operations of that equipment (lockout/tagout, safety harnesses,hardhats, etc.) OSHA does have some jurisdiction, even if it's limited.

Flynn..........they do indeed have jurisdiction, unless as you point out, there is a state agency they choose to defer to!

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Yes, but systems of this level of scrutiny are supposed to operate within procedures and enough fail-safes to prevent failures from turning into accidents.

From it's history, it sounds like the tractor is used way more 'loose' while out on the beam and lacks the safety fail safes necessary to prevent collisions.. relying instead solely on the operators.

However we don't know what really happened, nor do we know the operating rules or the design of the mule.......this is guess work.


Nothing is perfect at any level, accidents can and will happen! Considering Disney excellent safety record, this is really a non issue. Millions and millions of guests and CM moved, with very....very few issues.

 

[flynnibus]

However we don't know what really happened ...........

Which is why I'm not saying what the specific fix is.. because we don't know the specific fault. However ignorance of why does not mean you should just accept that things happen... especially when dealing in a system designed for ZERO accidents. They don't achieve that, but they also don't design for 'we'll accept some accidents'

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Which is why I'm not saying what the specific fix is.. because we don't know the specific fault. However ignorance of why does not mean you should just accept that things happen... especially when dealing in a system designed for ZERO accidents. They don't achieve that, but they also don't design for 'we'll accept some accidents'

OK...I think we mostly agree, I guess my point is that nothing man made, no matter how well designed is fool proof! That said, I agree, I am sure they are looking at what happened and will make required changes in operation or design. Just as they have always done. However just because there was a accident, that does not make the monorail, operation or CM's negligent.

 

[flynnibus]

However just because there was a accident, that does not make the monorail, operation or CM's negligent.

No, but it does call into question, what system do they have in place to prevent it? How many layers failed before this happened? 3, 2, 1 ?

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

No, but it does call into question, what system do they have in place to prevent it? How many layers failed before this happened? 3, 2, 1 ?

Agreed!

 

[lazyboy97o]

they are only out there running on the beam that has no power to the pickups, and no power to the MAPO system... how would the system protect the tractor from collisions?

Brakes that are engaged by default and require an active source to disengage.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Ahhh I see the pic now, and that would be a tough call. Remember though that OSHA doesn't just cover willful violations though, if it's considered a "recordable", you might still end up with an inspector visiting you. Do we know if anyone was hurt? If not, you're right that OSHA probably wouldn't get involved unless the accident was serious.

Sure, but since no injuries, other then property were recorded and since it was on property, there would be no reason to call in OSHA. They are only concerned about personal injuries or catastrophic accidents. One owned vehicle bumping into another wouldn't even cross their radar, or for that matter be officially reported or need to be. When I worked for a municipal bus company, I can't begin to tell you how often night maintenance would back into another bus, causing damage or hit a retaining post in the garage. Since no passengers were on the buses there was nothing more then a few angry words from the maintenance manager, possible internal disciplinary action and end of story.

No matter what precautionary systems are in place, accidents happen. That's why they call them accidents and not on purposes! OK, I'll admit it... that was awful!

 

[flynnibus]

Sure, but since no injuries, other then property were recorded and since it was on property, there would be no reason to call in OSHA. They are only concerned about personal injuries or catastrophic accidents

No, they are also concerned with SAFE WORKING CONDITIONS. Scenarios where workers are put into unsafe conditions is also their concern, even if said conditions have not yet resulted in injury. Accidents can lead to OSHA inspections, but they are not required for OSHA involvement. OSHA's rules are about PREVENTATIVE measures, not just penalizing companies due to injury.

 

[SoupBone]

I just found my own answer. So according to a 1991 OSHA interpretation letter, while OSHA had no specific regulations regarding monorails, companies that use them must comply with ANSI'S guidelines. And as always OSHA can always use the general duty clause if necessary. What this means is that while this might be a DOT jurisdiction, under the general duty clause, OSHA can definitely claim jurisdiction as well. Would they? Probably not if DOT is handling it, but they could.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=20193

 

[sweetpee_1993]

OSHA'S core mission is most definitely to protect America's workers, I'm just talking about this particular incident. I'm sure that they make regular inspections on Disney property or their state equivalent does. It's definitely not just an after the fact agency.

My whole interest in this thread was if OSHA has any authority, which has been debated back and forth. You can bet that if the accident itself is a DOT only event, at some point in the daily operations of that equipment (lockout/tagout, safety harnesses,hardhats, etc.) OSHA does have some jurisdiction, even if it's limited.

I'd need to search back thru my pics but I have close pics and, I think video, of a tractor in operation towing a broken monorail. I took them from the walkway right above the monorail track thru the Contemporary during our first stay. Would've been December 2007. Boy, was it LOUD coming thru the concourse! Anywhoo, pretty sure the 2 operators in the tractor were wearing hard hats but not positive. I know we saw harnesses and tethers. May have been yoyo's. Fascinating to see up close like that. I'd almost bet this is largely why the operators weren't injured.

@flynnibus , I'm quite interested in the article's assertion that the tractor was moving downhill and had a brake failure. What secondary braking systems would the tractors have? Do the monorails have them? I reeeeeaally hope these secondary systems exist. If there is a secondary braking system, why didn't it immediately stop the tractor before the collision??? I think I see this same thought trail in your posts.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

No, they are also concerned with SAFE WORKING CONDITIONS. Scenarios where workers are put into unsafe conditions is also their concern, even if said conditions have not yet resulted in injury. Accidents can lead to OSHA inspections, but they are not required for OSHA involvement. OSHA's rules are about PREVENTATIVE measures, not just penalizing companies due to injury.

We get them on the ships sometimes just looking around! They are not involved in the ship operations or crew, but stevedore operations, loading or unloading cargo, preventative is a big part of there operations

 

[sweetpee_1993]

No, they are also concerned with SAFE WORKING CONDITIONS. Scenarios where workers are put into unsafe conditions is also their concern, even if said conditions have not yet resulted in injury. Accidents can lead to OSHA inspections, but they are not required for OSHA involvement. OSHA's rules are about PREVENTATIVE measures, not just penalizing companies due to injury.

Absolutely. This is why big companies hire safety personnel to keep an eye on things. I worked as a safety tech on an LNG terminal construction project. I wasn't there because an accident had happened. I was there to ensure OSHA regs were followed to a "T" in order to keep our workers safe as well as the company free of penalties for failure to observe regulations. Looooots of paperwork. Meetings. Reports. Forms. Always watching to keep workers safe before anything happened. A near miss is SERIOUS. Not to be taken lightly at all.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Which is why I'm not saying what the specific fix is.. because we don't know the specific fault. However ignorance of why does not mean you should just accept that things happen... especially when dealing in a system designed for ZERO accidents. They don't achieve that, but they also don't design for 'we'll accept some accidents'

Since other then being an occasional visitor, I'm not sure what the hell business it is of anyone other then internal management. No passengers were involved, the parks were closed, the monorail technically did not have an accident, it was struck by another vehicle which, in all likelihood would not be there under normal operating conditions. What says that they accept things like that when they happen, as being OK. What the conversation has been about is trying to establish some sort of liability on Disney's part in conjunction with the constant "poor management" agenda that is foremost in everyone's mind. (Here at least) For this topic it is a crock of garbage.

Having been in the transportation business for a number of years, I can tell you that any accident any driver was ever in, where it looked like the fault was with the driver, the first words out of that persons mouth were... "the brakes didn't work". I don't remember a single time when that scenario played true.

Seriously, this is a non-issue. It really isn't worthy of mention much less all this conversation. Damage happened to the Monorail, it will be repaired, if it hasn't already and life will go on. The transformation of mole hills to mountains is almost an obsession lately.