Wookies, & Rebels, & Droids... OH WHY?! The Anti-SWL in Disneyland Thread

[Donaldfan1934]

In your posts, you make many excellent points, but this one comment about SWL "dooming" Disneyland is just not right. What you're really saying is that your version (and, truth be told, my version too) of classic Disneyland is doomed. But For 99% of current and future DL visitors, SWL is going to be the greatest thing the park's ever done. Twenty years from now, the younger generations of DL fans will defend the thematic integrity of SWL--which they will have grown up with and consider a key element of their childhood--with all the passion today's fans have for New Orleans Square.

What a lot of us have trouble coming to terms with is that the Disney we grew up with (TV, parks and movies) does not exist anymore. (Remember when the Disney Channel used to cater to the real fans?).

Most Disneyland fans are not the devoted minority who study the park's history and artistry. Most paying guests just want quality escapism in a clean, family-friendly environment. These are the people who make DL profitable and ensure its longevity. The only way to keep DL from changing drastically over the decades would be to make it a National Historic Landmark and treat it like a museum. As much as I'd love that, it's not going to happen. And it's probably not what Walt Disney would have wanted. This change is happening. It'll be hugely profitable. Lots of fans will miss the DL that once was, but the majority of paying guests will adore Star Wars Land.

What we should be grateful for is that "Disney' still has any kind of central identity at all. We take it for granted that Disney's always going to be there, just because it's existed all our lives. In an alternate reality, Eisner never saved the company and Six Flags has run the parks for years.

Also, let's all keep in mind that this is concept art we're talking about. The reality never matches the artist vision, for better and worse. Let's hold our horses until we actually board the Mark Twain and circle the river. I remember actually believing that Splash Mountain was going to feature a layout that snaked back a quarter mile into outdoor Critter Country woodlands...and that the logs appearing to go underwater was going to be a huge deal.

It could be awesome. It could be simply weird. But let's not call it a disaster yet. And, again, I still think you make a lot of great points.

What you just said is exactly why I say the park is doomed. SWL will likely be only the first major piece that strips away Disneyland's identity. The more people welcome decisions like this, the more Disney will make decisions like this. If more changes like this come into affect, they will strip the park of all identity and any real purist fanbase. Enter the Slippery Slope Theory I mentioned earlier and then you got the idea. While I agree with you that Disneyland should never be complete and that we should be thankful it hasn't become another Six Flags, we should be wary of the changes that are made so Disneyland doesn't become just a high end Six Flags.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

I would have preferred the original idea (California car culture, drive-ins, road trips, etc.). The awe of Cars Land has worn off for me, but I still find it entertaining. At least with the original idea, they would have been able to significantly update/change it. Cars Land is what it is, Radiator Springs. There's no changing that and plussing that (not in the same way as the traditional lands).

Totally understand. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Californian Elitist]

The more people welcome decisions like this, the more Disney will make decisions like this.

And we have a winner. Correct, as long as the general public and fans continue to support the lack of creativity currently going on at the American Disney parks, that is what we will continue to get.

People need to look at the bigger picture. SWL is opening a door that will take a very long time to close.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

The door has been open since they started Haunted Mansion Holiday. It ruined everything.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

I didn't say that at all. I'm saying that since Star Wars is an Disney IP and sold in stores, you see it just as much if not more than classic Disney characters and park shirts. I personally always wear my Disneyland shirt when I go to the park. Disney already reinvented it's image a couple of times since the 80s.

In my eyes, Star Wars is NOT traditional Disney IP despite its longstanding theme park pressence and I don't think most people currently see it as such either. So to me, you're basically saying that the bought IP may be stronger than the original IP and therefore should take precedence over it.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

If NFL had that B&tB ride that Tokyo is getting I think it would've been fine having Mermaid and SDMT as they are.

Totally agree with this statement. However, I do feel that a complete overhaul of the existing Fantasyland would've been just as necessary. I think @phruby stated it pretty well.

Especially when you turn around and see MK 1970s staring right back at you with it's ugly medieval fair look.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

And we have a winner. Correct, as long as the general public and fans continue to support the lack of creativity currently going on at the American Disney parks, that is what we will continue to get.

People need to look at the bigger picture. This is SWL is opening a door that will take a very long time to close.

Thanks for the praise. I think this comment adds to and compliments mine pretty well.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

Hogsmead is very poorly designed from a crowd flow perspective. I've experienced 'hellish' Hogsmead at both IOA and USH, meanwhile the rest of the park is quite literally a dream. Hogsmead shares a lot in common with the design of Tomorrowland now that I think about it.

I don't believe this will have the same problem. Diagon Alley learned that lesson from Hogsmead and as a result crowd flow is much more pleasant in the Studio's side.

Who knows, if it is a big enough crowd sponge the rest of DL might actually feel less crowded. Can it mop up more people than it attracts remains to be seen.

I totally agree that Hogsmeade being poorly designed space wise, but there are other factors that could make SWL have just as big, if not bigger crowding issues despite its likley spacial advantage. Its a bigger franchise in a more popular theme park that is a bit smaller than the park Potter originally opened in. Combine these factors and the park could be bursting at the seems in a situation of the land overcrowding. Controlling a situation of such high demand may be beyond the best crowd control tactics out there.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

Sorry, I know I'm quoting these two old posts, but this is where I started to catch up from.

The big difference is @Mike S is proposing a 4 billion dollar second park that wouldn't feasibly be completed until well into the 2020's.

Ya we'd all love that decision, but it is a complete apple to oranges comparison. Would I be willing to wait? Yes. But I can't complain about a 1 billion expansion 'now' to wait on a maybe third park later. They also don't lose the ability to build that third park later either, which they aren't in any rush to do with current management.

The reason we're coplaining about the 'now' decision is because of the perceived effects it will have on the park's identity and integrity. SWL is just the type of addition ripe for a third gate. Current management is the problem and shouldn't be an excuse for their own bad decisions.

 

[Variable]

Yes, I'm an AP, and no, avoiding SWL won't be an issue for me. I don't care about the E-tickets, I don't care about what's coming, I'm not interested in the project in general. I can barely take the construction photos; looking at the real deal when it is completed will be a definite no-no. I've kept out of the construction thread completely. There is ZERO interest in me regarding the Disneyland version.

Didn't you creat this thread? For someone with zero interest in a subject, you certainly aren't reluctant to talk about it.

The delusion is strong in this one...

 

[ctrlaltdel]

Didn't you creat this thread? For someone with zero interest in a subject, you certainly aren't reluctant to talk about it.

The delusion is strong in this one...

He's talking about having no interest in going to SWL once it's open (in DL at least), not about zero interest in the project's impact on DL. I don't think it's unfair for there to be a place to vent about it. There are many with concerns about what this will do to the park, both in an immediate and long-term sense.

 

[Stevek]

And we have a winner. Correct, as long as the general public and fans continue to support the lack of creativity currently going on at the American Disney parks, that is what we will continue to get.

People need to look at the bigger picture. SWL is opening a door that will take a very long time to close.

Really, not creative? How do you define creativity? Does it have to be non-IP to be creative? That ship has sailed over here. Yeah, I'd love things like Mystic Manor or most of DisneySea and they would probably be hits here but Disney has built IP based attractions since the day DL opened. Immersing guests in things they have seen on TV sells and resonates with guests and again, was a part of the park from day one. I get that you and many others, including me, don't really support a full land dedicated to Star Wars but to say what they are building isn't "creative" is way off base. It oozes creativity and all indications say it will be as immersive, if not more, than anything Disney has ever built.

Disney doesn't care who does or doesn't welcome a decision like this and quite honestly, message boarders like us are a vocal minority compared relative to the number of guests that visit the parks. Disney is building what they feel will appeal to the general public and I'm not sure you or anyone else here can expect the general public to embrace "Walt's Vision" for the park as that vision died with him. Walt was only around for 11 of the parks 60 years. And really, does any of us know what his long term vision was? Nobody can say he would have been for or against this addition.

As for not stepping inside SWL, seems like a bit of overkill but whatever works for you. And while you lament the lack of creativity, you state you won't visit the DL version but will visit the WDW version? Seems a bit contradictory. My suggestion is that if you, or any of us, really feel Disney is destroying Disneyland, we should stop visiting completely. Any visit to a park, even if you don't set foot in a specific land, puts you squarely in the bucket of "the general public and fans continue to support the lack of creativity currently going on at the American Disney parks"

 

[Phroobar]

A turn style click into Disneyland is the same as entry into SWL as far as Disney is concerned.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Didn't you creat this thread? For someone with zero interest in a subject, you certainly aren't reluctant to talk about it.

The delusion is strong in this one...

Someone is confused.

I'm referring to the subject of EXPERIENCING Star Wars Land. That I have no interest in. How about you ask for some clarification before going out and calling me delusional?

Thank you, @ctrlaltdel for clarifying for me.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Really, not creative? How do you define creativity? Does it have to be non-IP to be creative? That ship has sailed over here. Yeah, I'd love things like Mystic Manor or most of DisneySea and they would probably be hits here but Disney has built IP based attractions since the day DL opened. Immersing guests in things they have seen on TV sells and resonates with guests and again, was a part of the park from day one. I get that you and many others, including me, don't really support a full land dedicated to Star Wars but to say what they are building isn't "creative" is way off base. It oozes creativity and all indications say it will be as immersive, if not more, than anything Disney has ever built.

Disney doesn't care who does or doesn't welcome a decision like this and quite honestly, message boarders like us are a vocal minority compared relative to the number of guests that visit the parks. Disney is building what they feel will appeal to the general public and I'm not sure you or anyone else here can expect the general public to embrace "Walt's Vision" for the park as that vision died with him. Walt was only around for 11 of the parks 60 years. And really, does any of us know what his long term vision was? Nobody can say he would have been for or against this addition.

As for not stepping inside SWL, seems like a bit of overkill but whatever works for you. And while you lament the lack of creativity, you state you won't visit the DL version but will visit the WDW version? Seems a bit contradictory. My suggestion is that if you, or any of us, really feel Disney is destroying Disneyland, we should stop visiting completely. Any visit to a park, even if you don't set foot in a specific land, puts you squarely in the bucket of "the general public and fans continue to support the lack of creativity currently going on at the American Disney parks"

I disagree that it "oozes" creativity. Building a land based on a work that was written by someone else and already in existence is not creative, in my opinion. You're welcome to your opinion. In my opinion, there's really no creativity in the concept of Star Wars Land, but if you feel I'm off base, that's fine. My opinion won't change.

Never did I ever state how Walt Disney would feel about Star Wars Land going into the park.

In my previous posts, I've said multiple times I don't care what happens in the other Disney parks, including DCA. I have different feelings towards Disneyland, the original park. I've made that very clear, so it's not contradictory. It's fine if you think it's overkill, but again, it won't change how I feel. I really don't understand why some of you seem to take issue with my stance and opinions on SWL in Disneyland. You should be happy, I'm one less person who won't be in those lines and taking up space.

For those of you who have an issue with some of our opinions, I said it from the beginning, this thread is here for those of us who don't support this decision and feel like our opinion isn't wanted elsewhere, or even thought of to be "overkill." As stated in my very first post, some of us are here to complain, cry, whine, b**ch, moan, kick, and scream. If any of you have a problem with that (not directing this only to you, Steve), don't click on the thread. We already had one thread on this subject turn into a complete disaster because we couldn't get along. I'm sure the construction and progress thread has been generally positive. This is the counter thread; if you have a problem with it, stay out of it, as I don't want some of us who don't support this to feel like our opinion doesn't count.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

I disagree that it "oozes" creativity. Building a land based on a work that was written by someone else and already in existence is not creative, in my opinion. You're welcome to your opinion. In my opinion, there's really no creativity in the concept of Star Wars Land, but if you feel I'm off base, that's fine. My opinion won't change.

Never did I ever state how Walt Disney would feel about Star Wars Land going into the park.

In my previous posts, I've said multiple times I don't care what happens in the other Disney parks, including DCA. I have different feelings towards Disneyland, the original park. I've made that very clear, so it's not contradictory. It's fine if you think it's overkill, but again, it won't change how I feel. I really don't understand why some of you seem to take issue with my stance and opinions on SWL in Disneyland. You should be happy, I'm one less person who won't be in those lines and taking up space.

For those of you who have an issue with some of our opinions, I said it from the beginning, this thread is here for those of us who don't support this decision and feel like our opinion isn't wanted elsewhere, or even thought of to be "overkill." As stated in my very first post, some of us are here to complain, cry, whine, b**ch, moan, kick, and scream. If any of you have a problem with that (not directing this only to you, Steve), don't click on the thread. We already had one thread on this subject turn into a complete disaster because we couldn't get along. I'm sure the construction and progress thread has been generally positive. This is the counter thread; if you have a problem with it, stay out of it, as I don't want some of us who don't support this to feel like our opinion doesn't count.

Thank you. This thread needs to be a place for us to voice our opinions without being stomped upon unlike the last one.

 

[Stevek]

I disagree that it "oozes" creativity. Building a land based on a work that was written by someone else and already in existence is not creative, in my opinion. You're welcome to your opinion. In my opinion, there's really no creativity in the concept of Star Wars Land, but if you feel I'm off base, that's fine. My opinion won't change.

Never did I ever state how Walt Disney would feel about Star Wars Land going into the park.

In my previous posts, I've said multiple times I don't care what happens in the other Disney parks, including DCA. I have different feelings towards Disneyland, the original park. I've made that very clear, so it's not contradictory. It's fine if you think it's overkill, but again, it won't change how I feel. I really don't understand why some of you seem to take issue with my stance and opinions on SWL in Disneyland. You should be happy, I'm one less person who won't be in those lines and taking up space.

For those of you who have an issue with some of our opinions, I said it from the beginning, this thread is here for those of us who don't support this decision and feel like our opinion isn't wanted elsewhere, or even thought of to be "overkill." As stated in my very first post, some of us are here to complain, cry, whine, b**ch, moan, kick, and scream. If any of you have a problem with that (not directing this only to you, Steve), don't click on the thread. We already had one thread on this subject turn into a complete disaster because we couldn't get along. I'm sure the construction and progress thread has been generally positive. This is the counter thread; if you have a problem with it, stay out of it, as I don't want some of us who don't support this to feel like our opinion doesn't count.

Nobody, other than Disney, should be saying your opinion doesn't count. Unfortunately, by creating a thread that is squarely against SWL @ Disneyland, you open it up for debate regardless of your intention...even from some of us that agree with many of your points. It's a message board and as you have seen all over the place here, there really aren't any rules of play.

My Walt comment wasn't directed at you per se, but more the "purists" that pull the "What would Walt do?" card on a regular basis.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Nobody, other than Disney, should be saying your opinion doesn't count. Unfortunately, by creating a thread that is squarely against SWL @ Disneyland, you open it up for debate regardless of your intention...even from some of us that agree with many of your points. It's a message board and as you have seen all over the place here, there really aren't any rules of play.

My Walt comment wasn't directed at you per se, but more the "purists" that pull the "What would Walt do?" card on a regular basis.

I agree, all of our opinions should count, but some of us felt our opinions didn't count in the other thread, the one that got ugly, hence the reason I created this thread. I have stayed out of the construction thread out of respect for those who are genuinely excited about this new addition; for those who are for the project, I want you to enjoy seeing it spring up. I looked at that thread as the "pro-SWL in Disneyland" thread, so I created this thread specifically for those of us who don't agree and can express the way we feel in comfort. And now I feel things are starting to get ugly again because some who do support it are coming here and making us feel like our opinion is invalid for whatever reason, and it is starting to turn into that other thread. This isn't about rules, this is about RESPECT.

Those of us who are against this aren't pulling the "Walt" card. We're basing how we feel on the park's concept from day one. This isn't necessarily about Walt Disney and his opinions.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Thank you. This thread needs to be a place for us to voice our opinions without being stomped upon unlike the last one.

Exactly. I don't mind those of you who don't agree with us coming here to voice your opinions, but be respectful about it. Some of you have been, @BrianLo and @ctrlaltdel, and it is appreciated.

 

[Rich T]

What you just said is exactly why I say the park is doomed. SWL will likely be only the first major piece that strips away Disneyland's identity. The more people welcome decisions like this, the more Disney will make decisions like this. If more changes like this come into affect, they will strip the park of all identity and any real purist fanbase. Enter the Slippery Slope Theory I mentioned earlier and then you got the idea. While I agree with you that Disneyland should never be complete and that we should be thankful it hasn't become another Six Flags, we should be wary of the changes that are made so Disneyland doesn't become just a high end Six Flags.

You and I both know that there's a huge difference between Star Wars Land and a new 12-Loop steel Aquaman coaster at a Six Flags. SWL is going to be charming, creative, spectacular and unforgettable (unless, of course, something goes horribly wrong). I honestly don't think it's going to doom Disneyland any more than Space Mountain and Big Thunder did (if the web had existed in its present form at the time, we'd have seen concerns over Space Mountain, Big Thunder, Indiana Jones, Star Tours, New Fantasyland, Toontown, Haunted Mansion, Pirates, New Fantasyland, Splash Mountain ("It's a nearly off-the-shelf log ride based on a racially insensitive flop movie with reanimated corpses from America Sings!") etc.

Star Wars is now Disney, and Disneyland is going to keep changing to accommodate public tastes. It always has...since day one. To suggest that the park is dooming itself by building things people are going to like is... well, I'd say ludicrous, except I understand that you're talking about the ineffable. When you say "doomed" I think you're talking about the park losing its soul. I worry about that too, as I think Disney, as a company, already has lost it. It's still a massive mothership of creativity, but it's long since abandoned any altruistic goals it may have once had. The fans are what keep the "magic" alive, because they "get" it.

What many traditionalists ignore, though, is that for the new Disneyland fans, Star Wars IS magic. It gives them the same rush we once got from films like Peter Pan. DL's soul may be "doomed" for many of us (and I don't think it is just yet), but for the up-and-coming fans, it's going to be better than ever. Things change and adapt or they disappear. Disneyland, as it always has, is changing. It'll be more successful than ever, and I think the "mood" damage will be far less than, say, what happened when they destroyed one of the world's greatest audioanimatronic showpieces and replaced it with a C-ticket dark ride just so they could sell more plushies.