Whispering Canyon Change

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Based on Economics, if the price is too high demand will fall and the resorts would be empty if they were over priced. However during the 2008 to 2016 period the stock market and the rich did very well. The middle class and poor did not. But Disney and Universal dont care about the middle or bottom. They go after the top 20 percent. Even Six Flags, Cedar Fair and SeaWorld fo after the top 40 percent. If you only base you view that prices are too high high on how middle and the poor are doing then you need to study economics more. Tourism is completely different than the general economy. Disney and Universal have done very well and so has the Orlando Economy. They only area that has done better and never had the recession is the Washington DC metro area.

WDW was never priced on a Pure S&D curve...there’s revisionist history on topics like this to try to indicate that it was always so. One thing - DVC - a major part of Orlando specifically, is a longterm investment strategy. That’s not the first fall exam of Econ one.

 

[seascape]

WDW was never priced on a Pure S&D curve...there’s revisionist history on topics like this to try to indicate that it was always so. One thing - DVC - a major part of Orlando specifically, is a longterm investment strategy. That’s not the first fall exam of Econ one.

I never said Disney originally priced their hotels on a pure economic basis. In fact Disney made the initial decision to limit their own growth for the benefit of the Orlando region. This was a good decision because it allowed for the entire region to grow. Now they and Universal have a battle going on and both are going to have major expansions. Disney will succeed in their plans to draw 80 million plus a year by the mid 2020's. Universal on the other hand will be number 4 on the attendance chart next year and probably only grow another 2% in Orlando while Disney grows 3% or a little more.

 

[Shouldigo12]

I mean technically Fort Wilderness has the Revue which is even more boisterous.. I wonder if people go in there expecting just a meal as well ever.. I know it says Musical in the name.. but as mentioned previously.. first timers often have no idea what they signed up for. I once saw a lady with 4 young kids complaining (back when Cellier was THE ADR to get), that they didn't know the place would be so quiet and expensive... It is far more common for people to have planners just grab ADR's for clients and dump people into the popular stuff than most of us who do our own planning would ever imagine unfortunately..

I remember laughing with my mom about this after talking to a couple who, like us, were having their first Disney vacation. They admitted they got so confused with all the planning involved they just had a travel agent make up their whole itinerary. They didn't even know the name of the restaurant they were eating at that night! When we asked they just said "uh...Jungle something?". I had to tell them haha. And they didn't know the plans for their next day either. They just looked over everything day of and followed along with the plans. It amazed me.

 

[Todd H]

My last stay was at Wilderness Lodge. Glad I got to enjoy the full WCC experience before it was changed. Disney continues to take the fun out of visiting while continuing to jack up the prices. At this point I'm not sure when I will ever return if at all.

 

[USofA scott]

That is incorrect.

Moderates (port, Caribbean, DIXIE, and Coronado) were priced that way. Same rooms, standard hotel features.

As were the all stars... same rooms.

Deluxe were tiered based on location and service level...or just what they shot for and stuck and then rose over time.

Grand was base $329...Polynesian was around $244...contemporary garden wing around $170 I want to say, tower more like $275...yacht and Beach were $229 ish...as was boardwalk. Akl was “in flux” as it started out slightly less than grand but fell within a year down to just above wilderness. Wilderness was exactly where I said it was..it was actually $109 in 2000-2001...and then shot to $150 and escalated quickly after 2004...

That was the cheapest rate - September, and a lot of times where you have to beat each other off with sticks now in the parks.

It was what it was...these numbers (I may be off 5-10 Bucks here or there) are burned in the memory...I looked at them daily back then.

You are correct that there were generally 3 rates (not including view fees) that rotated 6-8 times a year...but suites and what was laughably called “concierge” altered things at the upper end.

Wrong.
Your prices are not correct.
Found the reference PO was 149/165/194 in 2005.
PortOrleans.org

Going back farther
Coronado Springs was 133 in 2003, All Stars was 77 and Poly was 299 (Mouseplanet July 23, 2013)
If moderates were in the 130s for 2003 Wilderness Lodge was not 119 in 2002

Here we go, rates for 2002
Boardwalk
$289 /$319/$379/$434
Found a guest staying in May of 2002 paying 179 at Wilderness Lodge It is amazing what you can find in the WDWMagic forums when you look back 2000+ pages and start skimming the posts.

 

[USofA scott]

Ask for Code CGK and get the following rates 6/23/02-8/24/02*:

Partial Hookup Campsite $19
Full Hookup Campsite $24
Preferred Full Hookup Campsite $32
All Stars $74 standard
Moderates $94 standard/$109 water view
Wilderness Lodge and Villas at Wilderness Lodge $139 standard/$144 woods view/$180 courtyard view/$204 studio/$315 1-bedroom/$540 2-bedroom
Animal Kingdom Lodge $139 standard/$190 water view/$205 savannah view
Contemporary $134 garden wing standard view/$190 junior suite/$225 tower
Old Key West $149 studio/$235 1-bedroom
Ft. Wilderness Cabins $159
Boardwalk Inn & Villas, Yacht & Beach Club Resort & Beach Club Villas $189 standard/studio/$250 water view/$285 1-bedroom/$315 concierge/$485 2-bedroom
Polynesian $199 garden view/$275 lagoon view/$280 concierge garden vie/$360 concierge lagoon view
Grand Floridian $229 garden view/$290 lagoon view/$295 lodge tower/$345 lodge concierge

These are discount codes, so the rate is higher than this.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Wrong.
Your prices are not correct.
Found the reference PO was 149/165/194 in 2005.
PortOrleans.org

Going back farther
Coronado Springs was 133 in 2003, All Stars was 77 and Poly was 299 (Mouseplanet July 23, 2013)
If moderates were in the 130s for 2003 Wilderness Lodge was not 119 in 2002

Here we go, rates for 2002
Boardwalk
$289 /$319/$379/$434
Found a guest staying in May of 2002 paying 179 at Wilderness Lodge It is amazing what you can find in the WDWMagic forums when you look back 2000+ pages and start skimming the posts.

Ask for Code CGK and get the following rates 6/23/02-8/24/02*:

Partial Hookup Campsite $19
Full Hookup Campsite $24
Preferred Full Hookup Campsite $32
All Stars $74 standard
Moderates $94 standard/$109 water view
Wilderness Lodge and Villas at Wilderness Lodge $139 standard/$144 woods view/$180 courtyard view/$204 studio/$315 1-bedroom/$540 2-bedroom
Animal Kingdom Lodge $139 standard/$190 water view/$205 savannah view
Contemporary $134 garden wing standard view/$190 junior suite/$225 tower
Old Key West $149 studio/$235 1-bedroom
Ft. Wilderness Cabins $159
Boardwalk Inn & Villas, Yacht & Beach Club Resort & Beach Club Villas $189 standard/studio/$250 water view/$285 1-bedroom/$315 concierge/$485 2-bedroom
Polynesian $199 garden view/$275 lagoon view/$280 concierge garden vie/$360 concierge lagoon view
Grand Floridian $229 garden view/$290 lagoon view/$295 lodge tower/$345 lodge concierge

These are discount codes, so the rate is higher than this.

I was using the lowest rack rates I could recall...not digging through promo codes or posts.

But...so If I was low on wilderness...let’s use $139...

What is the current low rack rate and what’s the rate of gain?

 

[flyerjab]

Riveting discussion...but maybe a PM discussion would work better...as you know...whispering canyon and all...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Riveting discussion...but maybe a PM discussion would work better...as you know...whispering canyon and all...

KETCHUP!!!

 

[Lensman]

I'm gonna quote a post from the 2017 Theme Park Attendance Data thread:

I turned this into a graph because they're pretty
View attachment 284814

I don't think it's particularly relevant to the Whispering Canyon Cafe change, but I think it provides good background data for our digression. But hopefully that convo will burn itself out and we can get back to discussing ketchup.

What people have said about ADRs getting made by travel agents and people showing up with no idea what WCC is like is appalling. I kind of hope that's the problem because then the real solution is educating the travel agents.

I will repeat my worry that DVC will change the character of some of the establishments at the Wilderness Lodge. I hope this isn't the problem but I guess it could also be solved with more dining options, supported by the upper-middle class and wealthier DVC'ers. Did BLT, VGF, and PVB result in any changes to the dining at the Contemporary, Grand Floridian, or Polynesian?

 

[Tuvalu]

I was using the lowest rack rates I count recall...not digging through promo codes or posts.

Recollections and memories are not always accurate and shouldn’t be stated as “fact” unless there is documented written proof.

Moving along to Whispering Canyon Changes......

 

[GlacierGlacier]

I'm gonna quote a post from the 2017 Theme Park Attendance Data thread:


I don't think it's particularly relevant to the Whispering Canyon Cafe change, but I think it provides good background data for our digression. But hopefully that convo will burn itself out and we can get back to discussing ketchup.

What people have said about ADRs getting made by travel agents and people showing up with no idea what WCC is like is appalling. I kind of hope that's the problem because then the real solution is educating the travel agents.

I will repeat my worry that DVC will change the character of some of the establishments at the Wilderness Lodge. I hope this isn't the problem but I guess it could also be solved with more dining options, supported by the upper-middle class and wealthier DVC'ers. Did BLT, VGF, and PVB result in any changes to the dining at the Contemporary, Grand Floridian, or Polynesian?

Hey that's my graph

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Recollections and memories are not always accurate and shouldn’t be stated as “fact” unless there is documented written proof.

Moving along to Whispering Canyon Changes......

So the base rate didn’t go up 150% or so and they haven’t done large scale dvc conversions? Not just there, but other places?

This “argument” has been textbook looking at the trees in front without considering they stretch for a thousand miles behind.

But yeah...whispering canyon.

 

[USofA scott]

I was using the lowest rack rates I could recall...not digging through promo codes or posts.

But...so If I was low on wilderness...let’s use $139...

What is the current low rack rate and what’s the rate of gain?

No, you repeatedly said that the base rate was 119 in 2002. Then you told me I was incorrect.
The base rate was not 119 or even 139. There were discount codes that could bring it down to 139 and 179 so the BASE RATE was obviously above the rates you quoted.

So lets look at this apples to apples.
in August 2002 and discounted rate was 139. 16 years later, the rate is 301. per night. (8/21/2018 Incredible Summer Room Rate)
That is a little more than double the price in 16 years. Not Bad, but could use some Ketchup

 

[jakeman]

Riveting discussion...but maybe a PM discussion would work better...as you know...whispering canyon and all...

Unfortunately, we must be subjected to whatever topic those with the time and inclination to posts 100s of post per day deem important.

Sometimes we are lucky and they are contributory.

Then there are these times.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I'm gonna quote a post from the 2017 Theme Park Attendance Data thread:


I don't think it's particularly relevant to the Whispering Canyon Cafe change, but I think it provides good background data for our digression. But hopefully that convo will burn itself out and we can get back to discussing ketchup.

What people have said about ADRs getting made by travel agents and people showing up with no idea what WCC is like is appalling. I kind of hope that's the problem because then the real solution is educating the travel agents.

I will repeat my worry that DVC will change the character of some of the establishments at the Wilderness Lodge. I hope this isn't the problem but I guess it could also be solved with more dining options, supported by the upper-middle class and wealthier DVC'ers. Did BLT, VGF, and PVB result in any changes to the dining at the Contemporary, Grand Floridian, or Polynesian?

Travel agents are like stegosaurus at this point...I wasn’t sure they still existed on the large scale.

I think you have a legitimate concern in bold. It’s the nature of a particular set in many ways.

But @LAKid53 isnt gonna like it

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

No, you repeatedly said that the base rate was 119 in 2002. Then you told me I was incorrect.
The base rate was not 119 or even 139. There were discount codes that could bring it down to 139 and 179 so the BASE RATE was obviously above the rates you quoted.

So lets look at this apples to apples.
in August 2002 and discounted rate was 139. 16 years later, the rate is 301. per night. (8/21/2018 Incredible Summer Room Rate)
That is a little more than double the price in 16 years. Not Bad, but could use some Ketchup

This is the last I’ll say...because I have to honestly agree with @jakeman on this (still hasn’t offered anything...just trying to appear that way...but I digress)...

What were you actually doing during the time frame in question? PM if you want to go on about this. I’m done on this tangent.

 

[jakeman]

This is the last I’ll say...because I have to honestly agree with @jakeman on this (still hasn’t offered anything...just trying to appear that way...but I digress)...

What were you actually doing during the time frame in question? PM if you want to go on about this. I’m done on this tangent.

I got you to stop posting off topic.

Seems I've offered that up to the forum.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I got you to stop posting off topic.

Seems I've offered that up to the forum.

I will give you that

 

[wannabeBelle]

What people have said about ADRs getting made by travel agents and people showing up with no idea what WCC is like is appalling. I kind of hope that's the problem because then the real solution is educating the travel agents.

Some of us TA's are. I personally travel to WDW a few times a year and love it as much as anyone. I try to go around to different restaurants and different attractions, check out what's new and what's updated to be on top of any changes for my clients. Outside of an agency like KK where the agents do have a real passion for the resort, and do travel there themselves, I don't know how confident I would be in a TA who has never experienced the destination. Most TA's can book any destination but the experience level definitely matters. I would level with my client if I hadn't been to a particular destination and so may not be the best resource for that trip. Other TA's may not have an interest in the destination but have no problem completing the booking and may not be able to assist the client well on items that may be unique to the destination such as MDX, ADR's FP etc. Marie