WDW's non-MK parks' identities fading?

[Figment632]

Unfortunately, if management tried to keep to the original message of FW, it's be a dead zone nowadays. It's the way society is, and the GP that comes through the gates. They want thrills, and to not be educated, but entertained.

Jake's right, there are many positives going on in FW, but if you can't look past to what it was supposed to be circa '82, you'll never see it. Old FW is done, gone, kaput. As long as they create a fusion of what the GP wants and what FW is supposed to be, that's all you can ask for.

You are right Epcot Center is dead and not coming back. Epcot is still my favorite park I just wish the they redid TLS a little more creatively like the Atlantic Concept art :shrug:

 

[mcjaco]

But they employ some highly-paid people who should be able to develop Epcot attractions that are more entertaining and more educational. WoL had both. The Land, TLS, SSE & Innovations - whatever their imperfections - are more entertaining and informative than UoE or Imagination pavilion.

Hmmm, where to start......

One, I never did care for Wonders of Life. I thought it was kind of weak as a pavilion. Lots of little attractions mish-mashed together. Seperately they were all nice, but nothing ground breaking, and nothing really tied together. For me.

The Land is probably the most complete, and best pavilion right now (even with Soarin' :zipit. Which is funny, because as a kid, I didn't really care for it all that much. The still need something else in there, like Kitchen Kabaret or Food Rocks though. With the all the "healthy" eating mantras out today, you'd think someone would want to sponsor something like that.

Imagination.....What was once a shining star in FW is just terrible. The ride is awful, and the ImageWorks (which are really quite similiar to their predecessor), are just poorly thought out, and to be quite frank 'unimaginative." Not sure a refresh with Dreamfinder and Figment is necessary, but it certainly needs a new look.

OK, UofE is largely unchanged from it's opening. With the exception of the movies, and the addition of Ellen zipit. It's still the most informative and educational of all the pavilions. Which is why it's mostly empty. No one wants to be edutained anymore. Quite honestly, the whole thing is just too long for today's short attention spans. So I'd say your wrong on that part.

Innoventions, is coming around. I think I stopped popping my head in eaither one for about ten years, then in the last few visits started rambling through there. It's getting back to what Communicore was. One of the big issues with Communicore was keeping it on the cuting edge. Technology just moves too fast to keep things fresh for such a pavilion.

That's the rub. The GP just doesn't want educational attractions, unless it's highly diguised as a thrill, of entertaining. Unfortunately, the GP is what drives the changes, not a small group of fanatics.

 

[mcjaco]

You are right Epcot Center is dead and not coming back. Epcot is still my favorite park I just wish the they redid TLS a little more creatively like the Atlantic Concept art :shrug:

EPCOT Center isn't dead, the message just has to be tweaked, as the one presented in 1982 just doesn't fit anymore. As I've said, I think the changes over the past three to four years, have moved FW closer to it's roots than ever before, but there's still work to be done, and I believe there's a compromise that they need to attain to meet the original FW mantra, and today's demand for thrills and entertainment.

As for TLS, back in the day, it was truly a wonder. There just weren't that many aquariums that were that impressive. Nowadays they're kind of the norm. Putting a Disney touch by adding a character was the right move to get people back in there. Would a different overlay worked? Maybe. But when you have easy accessible characters that the public relates to, it's too easy to not go that route.

 

[Figment632]

EPCOT Center isn't dead, the message just has to be tweaked, as the one presented in 1982 just doesn't fit anymore. As I've said, I think the changes over the past three to four years, have moved FW closer to it's roots than ever before, but there's still work to be done, and I believe there's a compromise that they need to attain to meet the original FW mantra, and today's demand for thrills and entertainment.

As for TLS, back in the day, it was truly a wonder. There just weren't that many aquariums that were that impressive. Nowadays they're kind of the norm. Putting a Disney touch by adding a character was the right move to get people back in there. Would a different overlay worked? Maybe. But when you have easy accessible characters that the public relates to, it's too easy to not go that route.

I just think putting Nemo there was taking the easy way out. Instead of coming up with an awsome new concept, like a futuristic sea base redo or Atlantis they chose Nemo.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Weren't you 4 years old?


It is? Perhaps you should ask the kids that just talked to Crush and learned some facts about sea turtles.

You refuse to see it. That's all and that's sad.

You are so caught up in what Epcot should be, you aren't seeing the positive impact it is having right now.

All the caveats and rules in the world can be adhered to, but it doesn't matter if the pavilion holds no interest for anyone.

You are starting to remind me of a former poster here that got so caught up in his own ideals and image of Epcot he couldn't see the positive changes going on around him.

Your posts are bordering on rude and insulting. Your posts are reminding me of another member, so why don't we both cool it?:wave:

Yep. 4. I have a implicit memory. I remember. If you don't believe me, that's your problem.:shrug:

In all the times I've been to Turtle Talk, it's very rarely educational...But that's not the issue. It's not futuristic. It might entertain, it might be informational in a small respect, but there is no futurism there. In a land themed to "Where we are going, and where we have been", that does NOT work. Your right, I don't see it. I don't buy that mediocre link that WDI/TDO called for to tie it into Future World. I would think, that based on their past record, that they could be creative, and do something that would fit. THAT'S what I see.

You don't see how they could have taken the original aims and feeling of the park, or in this case, the pavilion, and built a modern show around it, for a modern audience. I guess I can think that that's "sad" too.

Positive changes? You really don't get some of my posts, do you? OF COURSE I see that FW is fresh, again. I agree with you, that this is a better fate for TLS than WoL. I am appeased it's thriving. Like mjcaco said, this could be a new "golden age" for FW. I could see it. I'm just conditioned to look for something thematically fitting, and IMHO, thematically better.

All of the rules could be applied here...and hold a audience. For all. It just has to be done.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I just think putting Nemo there was taking the easy way out. Instead of coming up with an awsome new concept, like a futuristic sea base redo or Atlantis they chose Nemo.

Agreed. It was...

They could have re done the whole SeaBase idea, and made it much more full of action ans suspense. Much like the 78 plans, that Martin called "dramatic".

EPCOT Center isn't dead, the message just has to be tweaked, as the one presented in 1982 just doesn't fit anymore. As I've said, I think the changes over the past three to four years, have moved FW closer to it's roots than ever before, but there's still work to be done, and I believe there's a compromise that they need to attain to meet the original FW mantra, and today's demand for thrills and entertainment.

As for TLS, back in the day, it was truly a wonder. There just weren't that many aquariums that were that impressive. Nowadays they're kind of the norm. Putting a Disney touch by adding a character was the right move to get people back in there. Would a different overlay worked? Maybe. But when you have easy accessible characters that the public relates to, it's too easy to not go that route.

Hmm. I *sort* of agree. Especially with the addition of M:S. TT and Nemo detract too much from it, IMHO.

Would you care to enumerate?

 

[mcjaco]

They could have re done the whole SeaBase idea, and made it much more full of action ans suspense. Much like the 78 plans, that Martin called "dramatic".

As much as I would have loved another redux of Sea Base Alpha, redoing it wasn't going to get people back in there. It was a very 80's techno cool sort of thing. You probably don't remember, but there was a terrible show with Wil Wheaton and Roy Scheider around the same time. I don't think the sea base would resonate with people today. It's just doesn't have enough "wow" factor now. Strange how perceptions can change in a short span of 15 to 20 years, isn't it? That's what was great about Horizons and TLC, they were plausible, but still just enough sci-fi to make you think this is as close to this as we'll get. I don't think we'd feel the same way today. Do you?

Hmm. I *sort* of agree. Especially with the addition of M:S. TT and Nemo detract too much from it, IMHO.

Would you care to enumerate?

Yes, I'll agree that Nemo was a short, easy way out. But when you've invested that much money into an aquarium, and no one is coming in to see it, sometimes you have to take some measures that blur the rules that were instituted. TLC was hardly the beginning of this. Innoventions, then WoL, then Test Track, bad Imagination, and Soarin' all led FW into a new direction. They've just made pavilions to get people into them. EPCOT was very stale for awhile, and USF and IOA were major players in people staying away. Disney thought thrills would bring them back. And they did, so they must have done something right.

I'm not happy with FW now, but it's far better than it was in the late nineties. And I at lease see some direction towards getting back more toward edutainment. If that means a Pixar character makes a few appearances, so be it.

 

[jakeman]

Your posts are bordering on rude and insulting. Your posts are reminding me of another member, so why don't we both cool it?:wave:

Really? I try to proof mine for political rants...:lookaroun

Yep. 4. I have a implicit memory. I remember. If you don't believe me, that's your problem.:shrug:

I never said I didn't believe you. I expect A's on all your test then!

In all the times I've been to Turtle Talk, it's very rarely educational...But that's not the issue. It's not futuristic. It might entertain, it might be informational in a small respect, but there is no futurism there. In a land themed to "Where we are going, and where we have been", that does NOT work. Your right, I don't see it. I don't buy that mediocre link that WDI/TDO called for to tie it into Future World. I would think, that based on their past record, that they could be creative, and do something that would fit. THAT'S what I see.

That is an individual issue then, not a park issue.

You don't see how they could have taken the original aims and feeling of the park, or in this case, the pavilion, and built a modern show around it, for a modern audience. I guess I can think that that's "sad" too.

They did. You refuse to see it because you are so dogmatic in your belief of what Epcot should be. I mean that in the nicest way possible! :wave:

Positive changes? You really don't get some of my posts, do you? OF COURSE I see that FW is fresh, again. I agree with you, that this is a better fate for TLS than WoL. I am appeased it's thriving. Like mjcaco said, this could be a new "golden age" for FW. I could see it. I'm just conditioned to look for something thematically fitting, and IMHO, thematically better.

All of the rules could be applied here...and hold a audience. For all. It just has to be done.

Please give me one example in Epcot that has appeased everyone?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

As much as I would have loved another redux of Sea Base Alpha, redoing it wasn't going to get people back in there. It was a very 80's techno cool sort of thing. You probably don't remember, but there was a terrible show with Wil Wheaton and Roy Scheider around the same time. I don't think the sea base would resonate with people today. It's just doesn't have enough "wow" factor now. Strange how perceptions can change in a short span of 15 to 20 years, isn't it? That's what was great about Horizons and TLC, they were plausible, but still just enough sci-fi to make you think this is as close to this as we'll get. I don't think we'd feel the same way today. Do you?



Yes, I'll agree that Nemo was a short, easy way out. But when you've invested that much money into an aquarium, and no one is coming in to see it, sometimes you have to take some measures that blur the rules that were instituted. TLC was hardly the beginning of this. Innoventions, then WoL, then Test Track, bad Imagination, and Soarin' all led FW into a new direction. They've just made pavilions to get people into them. EPCOT was very stale for awhile, and USF and IOA were major players in people staying away. Disney thought thrills would bring them back. And they did, so they must have done something right.

I'm not happy with FW now, but it's far better than it was in the late nineties. And I at lease see some direction towards getting back more toward edutainment. If that means a Pixar character makes a few appearances, so be it.

OK, so if that's the issue, I am thinking that's just the mood of the pavilion. Honestly...it might be too calm for today's tastes. Make it like StormRider at TDS. Make it like SM, even. Make it a adventure.


I have to say, then, this is too blurred. Just my humble opinion, but still. How is this Future? How is this tech? How is this learning?

Don't mind the characters (too much!) but, I would just like them out to better use.

Really? I try to proof mine for political rants...:lookaroun

I never said I didn't believe you. I expect A's on all your test then!

That is an individual issue then, not a park issue.

They did. You refuse to see it because you are so dogmatic in your belief of what Epcot should be. I mean that in the nicest way possible! :wave:

Please give me one example in Epcot that has appeased everyone?

How was mine political?:lookaroun:lol:

Yeah, they did...You are right there. But not a show that fits what EPCOT was set out to be, even though it changed in their minds and in mine. Even if you were to take the silly "Discovery World" route, this doesn't fit.

Appeased everyone? Incredibly easy, Jake. IllumiNations 2000: Reflections of Earth.

A's? In the bag.

How can this individual?...This is me comparing the original park to the park of today. It's bound to be done.

 

[jakeman]

Appeased everyone? Incredibly easy, Jake. IllumiNations 2000: Reflections of Earth.

We had a friend that would go to the bathroom during what he called the "stoopid globe". :lol:

I don't see RoE as easy though. Easy example, yes. Easy execution? No.

 

[mharrington]

I think that the two pavilions at Epcot that need the most attention now are A) The Living Seas (redo all references to Nemo so that they're still there, but less obvious and more subtle), and B) Imagination (need I say more?).

 

[Figment632]

I think that the two pavilions at Epcot that need the most attention now are A) The Living Seas (redo all references to Nemo so that they're still there, but less obvious and more subtle), and B) Imagination (need I say more?).

Agreed I know that TLS needed help but the idea that the only way to fix it was to put in Nemo is ridiculos. A futuristic overlay with the addition of an new ride (maybe a thrill ride) would have brought in just as many if not more people.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

We had a friend that would go to the bathroom during what he called the "stoopid globe". :lol:

I don't see RoE as easy though. Easy example, yes. Easy execution? No.

:fork: I dislike your friend.


(Went with a group of my friends in HS. They called RoE "gay". I was livid. :lol

But generally, RoE does leave people very happy and wowwed.

What do you mean by execution?

I think that the two pavilions at Epcot that need the most attention now are A) The Living Seas (redo all references to Nemo so that they're still there, but less obvious and more subtle), and B) Imagination (need I say more?).

Yes. I have to agree, though NemoLand won't happen for a while... It's too new.

Agreed I know that TLS needed help but the idea that the only way to fix it was to put in Nemo is ridiculos. A futuristic overlay with the addition of an new ride (maybe a thrill ride) would have brought in just as many if not more people.

Yep. They could have even kept Turtle Talk and some of the Nemo items in a more futuristic setting.

 

[jakeman]

:fork: I dislike your friend.


(Went with a group of my friends in HS. They called RoE "gay". I was livid. :lol

But generally, RoE does leave people very happy and wowwed.

What do you mean by execution?

RoE, as my understanding, is a very complicated show. Just because they did it right with RoE doesn't mean they can wave their hand on a completely different and more specific topic and format.

It's apples to hamburger.

Yep. They could have even kept Turtle Talk and some of the Nemo items in a more futuristic setting.

Evan, be completely honest. If they had added Nemo and the future, can you say with a straight face that you wouldn't be complaining about a mish mash of themes?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

RoE, as my understanding, is a very complicated show. Just because they did it right with RoE doesn't mean they can wave their hand on a completely different and more specific topic and format.

It's apples to hamburger.Evan, be completely honest. If they had added Nemo and the future, can you say with a straight face that you wouldn't be complaining about a mish mash of themes?

Why would you make that excuse for them? If they can make Magic, why not be able to make it again. :lol:


:lol::lookaroun Well, if they did it RIGHT, with Nemo contained to one of the "Pods", it might work.


Though, if they DID go with a ultra futuristic and dramatic theme, then no, Nemo needs to get his lucky fin over to the Studios. :lookaroun

 

[jakeman]

Why would you make that excuse for them? If they can make Magic, why not be able to make it again. :lol:

It's not an excuse more than an acknowledgment of the differences in types of show.

Of course you forget, I'm a raging management apologist. :animwink::ROFLOL:

:lol::lookaroun Well, if they did it RIGHT, with Nemo contained to one of the "Pods", it might work.

:lol: Sure..."TLS was a great update, but they dumb down the Nemo pod and it doesn't fit with Epcot at all!"

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

It's not an excuse more than an acknowledgment of the differences in types of show.

Of course you forget, I'm a raging management apologist. :animwink::ROFLOL:


:lol: Sure..."TLS was a great update, but they dumb down the Nemo pod and it doesn't fit with Epcot at all!"

:ROFLOL:

Well, quality in theme is still quality. While both RoE AND Nemo are quality, Nemo lacks the cohesiveness that RoE has.


Does that make ANY sense?:lol:


I know, but it's a "What If...". However, there is a example. Tokyo DisneySEA's new Turtle Talk in the American Waterfront, on the Columbia Ship.

As long as the setting is made to work for the attraction, it could work. The same thing would be in a SeaBase.

Then again..What if? :wave:

 

[jakeman]

:ROFLOL:

Well, quality in theme is still quality. While both RoE AND Nemo are quality, Nemo lacks the cohesiveness that RoE has.

Does that make ANY sense?:lol:

It does. I guess I'm just not a rigorous about cohesiveness as you are.

I know, but it's a "What If...". However, there is a example. Tokyo DisneySEA's new Turtle Talk in the American Waterfront, on the Columbia Ship.

As long as the setting is made to work for the attraction, it could work. The same thing would be in a SeaBase.

Then again..What if? :wave:

However, let me counter that. What is an Australian Sea Turtle doing on an 18th century American naval vessel?

It could still be seen as not matching theme.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

It does. I guess I'm just not a rigorous about cohesiveness as you are.

However, let me counter that. What is an Australian Sea Turtle doing on an 18th century American naval vessel?

It could still be seen as not matching theme.

I guess not?:lookaroun:lol:


And see, I feel the same way about the Australian Sea Turtle being in a American Port. However, the idea that we are looking out of a window in the hull of the Columbia and see Crush as he swims along is quite cool.


Like I said, if there is one thing I really like in TSwNaF, it's Crush. :lol: Still could be made to fit better, but I like it. It's the ride and the destruction of the SeaBase illusion that kills me.

 

[mcjaco]

What if they had changed the story for the sea cab ride, and you took a journey down to the coral reef for you to "Find" Nemo?