WDW's non-MK parks' identities fading?

[EPCOT Explorer]

Contrary to popular flib-fabbing, I think it's pretty clear once you spend a lot of time in the parks you start to really pick up on the individuality and identity of the parks. Truth is that, of all parks, Studios has the MOST identity of any of the four theme parks. At it's worst, everything in the park is distinctly Studios. Having made it a point to see attractions from Studios placed abroad, they really miss something. Tower and Muppets (All of the Hollywood Pictures Backlot) are missing some intrinsic element which makes the oddity feel at home. I think that's because of Studios' growth and warmth. It's been developed in a way so unique compared to any of the other parks, and something about the age of the landscape, and the way Streetmosphere and Cast Members really feel in place that gives Studios an extremely unique identity.

See, I think it's a grave mistake to label something Dynamic and Random as something "Without Identity and lacking focus."

A lot of HUMANS are random, doesn't mean they lack identity. That is their identity, and it's what makes them special.
:shrug:

Next up is Animal Kingdom, which has the most focused Identity. You can't see it if all you do is stare blindly, it takes a real open mind to start to dechyper the feeling and emotion of the park into the statements it's trying to make.

EPCOT is less indivivual since by nature it's halved in two. EPCOT is more of a unique place, always updating it's face to meet the times.

But of course, the most indivual park in the world is Disneyland.

When you're in Disneyland, You KNOW you're in Disneyland.
:sohappy:

I'm actually going to have to say that yes, I agree. Everything COULD fit into DHS if made right.


Agreed that EPCOT is unique, but I could say that it's Individualistic, too. somethings are VERY EPCOT in nature.


And of course, Disneyland. I need to go there. Now. Not in 2012, not in 2013, now. :dazzle::lol:

 

[mcjaco]

So easy way out is the right way!? No....Never. At least in my eyes. They could have done a cohesive, NEW SeaBase, or even something new. Not something generic and overused and something that's shoehorned in.


Loved Kathleen Turner. She would have rocked as a SSE Narrator.
That isn't the Future at all...:shrug:

OK how about "no brainer", instead of easy way out? I mean really, a highly poplular movie based on a fish? How can you go wrong?

I think what Figment is missing, is that there has always been a story to bring the people into the pavilions, and once past the story, then you get into the learning aspect. That's what they did for TLC. They added Nemo to get you in the door, and then you get to learn once your off the ride. Really, it's not any different than Sea Base Alpha, it's just using characters to get the message across. I always thought that was TLC's weakest point. There was nothing that made you come back for more, no story, no characters. It was a very weak, albeit cool, pavilion when you tooks the sum of all parts.

You are dead on about Epcot Evan, you can't be a true Epcot fan and be okay with how Nemo was used in TLS. It is not the simple fact that they used him it was the way in which they chose to.

Word to the wise, don't ever claim someone is not a fan because they defend something you don't like. I've been to EPCOT since the month it opened almost on a yearly basis. I'm betting YOU weren't even born during my first trip. Learn some manners.

 

[Figment632]

OK how about "no brainer", instead of easy way out? I mean really, a highly poplular movie based on a fish? How can you go wrong?

I think what Figment is missing, is that there has always been a story to bring the people into the pavilions, and once past the story, then you get into the learning aspect. That's what they did for TLC. They added Nemo to get you in the door, and then you get to learn once your off the ride. Really, it's not any different than Sea Base Alpha, it's just using characters to get the message across. I always thought that was TLC's weakest point. There was nothing that made you come back for more, no story, no characters. It was a very weak, albeit cool, pavilion when you tooks the sum of all parts.




Word to the wise, don't ever claim someone is not a fan because they defend something you don't like. I've been to EPCOT since the month it opened almost on a yearly basis. I'm betting YOU weren't even born during my first trip. Learn some manners.

You are right I wasn't born but I don't think I said anything rude, so I don't know why I need to work on manners?

I am still waiting for an answer on how Nemow fits the theme of future world? So far all everyone has been able to come up with was that Nemo is popular, still doesn't explain why he belongs in FW?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

You are dead on about Epcot Evan, you can't be a true Epcot fan and be okay with how Nemo was used in TLS. It is not the simple fact that they used him it was the way in which they chose to.

Well, thank you.

OK how about "no brainer", instead of easy way out? I mean really, a highly poplular movie based on a fish? How can you go wrong?

I think what Figment is missing, is that there has always been a story to bring the people into the pavilions, and once past the story, then you get into the learning aspect. That's what they did for TLC. They added Nemo to get you in the door, and then you get to learn once your off the ride. Really, it's not any different than Sea Base Alpha, it's just using characters to get the message across. I always thought that was TLC's weakest point. There was nothing that made you come back for more, no story, no characters. It was a very weak, albeit cool, pavilion when you tooks the sum of all parts.




Word to the wise, don't ever claim someone is not a fan because they defend something you don't like. I've been to EPCOT since the month it opened almost on a yearly basis. I'm betting YOU weren't even born during my first trip. Learn some manners.

No Brainer? Yes. That's it exactly. In more ways than one. :lookaroun You can't go wrong in terms of turn over or in terms of profit, but what of the integrity of the park? I think they ignored that here. Plopped something in Future World that has nothing to do with the future.

Agreed on TLS weak points...But it's STRENGTH was that cohesive and vastly immersive theme. It felt real. In terms of theme and actual "Wow, this is real and possible" feeling, this was my favorite. You FELT that place. Maybe it was the lack of the ride, actually that did it. By having to explore (Heh! ) and walk around the SeaBase, as if you were in it, and having to travel to it, made it vastly superior in that respect. But yes, I see how it was weak, too. No real story, besides the one of the setting.

Gosh, I miss The Living Seas. I spent a ton of time in there, but it's not enough, now.

And YES to the whole fan thing. Gosh, if I could post that in every thread of a certain type, I would.:lookaroun:dazzle:


Maybe I will.

 

[EpcotServo]

I am still waiting for an answer on how Nemow fits the theme of future world? So far all everyone has been able to come up with was that Nemo is popular, still doesn't explain why he belongs in FW?

Not that anything in Future World has to do with the Future any more.

Anyways, the answer is Nemo fits because they are the "Hosts" of the Pavilion. It's like asking "How does Ellen fit in with Future World?" or "How does Martin Short fit into Canada?". Since the days of Dreamfinder and Wonders of Life, the idea has been to ground "Hosts" as a central part of EPCOT attractions.

Argue as you wish, just sayin' that's the answer since no one told you.

 

[Figment632]

Not that anything in Future World has to do with the Future any more.

Anyways, the answer is Nemo fits because they are the "Hosts" of the Pavilion. It's like asking "How does Ellen fit in with Future World?" or "How does Martin Short fit into Canada?". Since the days of Dreamfinder and Wonders of Life, the idea has been to ground "Hosts" as a central part of EPCOT attractions.

Argue as you wish, just sayin' that's the answer since no one told you.

Thank you finally someone comes with an answer other than Nemo is popular! Thankyou Servo!!

 

[mcjaco]

You are right I wasn't born but I don't think I said anything rude, so I don't know why I need to work on manners?

I am still waiting for an answer on how Nemow fits the theme of future world? So far all everyone has been able to come up with was that Nemo is popular, still doesn't explain why he belongs in FW?

Telling someone they're not a fan of EPCOT because they're okay with Nemo. Not only is that just ridiculous, but there's no basis behind it. It's insulting to those of use that have watched EPCOT change over the past 34 years (in my case), and evolve. Evan, for instance, likes EPCOT of '94. That's wonderful. I prefer '84. Are either of us wrong? I don't think so.

As I explained before, FW is about learning. Many times, they used a character (i.e: Figment, the family in Horizons), to get you into a pavilion. They've used Nemo to do the same. Once your past his little story, you're into the learning annex of the pavilion. Which has been barely changed, except paint colors.

No Brainer? Yes. That's it exactly. In more ways than one. :lookaroun You can't go wrong in terms of turn over or in terms of profit, but what of the integrity of the park? I think they ignored that here. Plopped something in Future World that has nothing to do with the future.

FW is always supposed to be evolving, like Tomorrowland. It's a tough job to keep these massive building relevant for longer than a few years. They've lost sponsorships, and have to bring in dollars anyway they can. Nemo was the best way to do so. Is the integrity of FW lost? Maybe. I don't know, the whole area isn't what it was originally supposed to be, but again, the GP is what drives these parks, not the collection of goofs like us that want it to remain true to it's origins. Was Nemo the greatest overlay? Probably not for intergrity sakes, but lets face it, Soarin', Test Track, and Imagination aren't real mind blowing either. They lost their way in the late 90's (as you ahve excellently pointed out), and I think they're pointed in the right direction. FW is hardly dying as is pointed out earlier. I think we're about to see the renaissance of that portion of EPCOT.

 

[jakeman]

Not even a Fantasy Future, almost like M:S is....It's just Fantasy. The use of a character would be fine, but where is the Future in this Future World Pavilion?

You are talking to a cartoon character! In real time! Without a recorded spiel!

If that isn't futuristic enough for you, then you aren't looking and boardline refusing to see it.

Slightly. It's no where near as informative as the old one.

Have you been there (seriously, I can't remember). Almost all the bays are still intact with everything that was there before and more. We lost a boring film and a omnimover that hadn't omnimoved in 10 years.

And Dinos in UoE? Easy. Part of the story. EO? Part of a greater Imagination Pavilion experience, much like Soarin'. Ice Station? CommuniCore...AKA Sponsor land. I never minded it.

Now, I know what you are going to say....that Nemo is part of the story. Which it is. But it's not the right story, IMHO, for a place that focuses on "Where we are going and where we have been"

(That's from Walt Disney's EPCOT- Creating the New World of Tomorrow")

Why do you get to pick what matters or not?

It's all or nothing Evan. If you are going to complain about TLS the same rigorous standard should apply to every nook and cranny of Epcot.

That's why I like Animal Kingdom. The message delivers tangible results, not warm fuzzies that differ from person to person.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

How is it that everything always comes back to Epcot? :lol:

Anyway, first to the OP: I disagree for the most part that the parks all losing their identities and becoming clones of the MK. You can argue that certain elements and attractions in each park are, but not the parks as a whole. Each one certainy still maintains its identity.

Now, to the topic thats being debated:

The Living Seas was old and stale; I don't think anyone will refute that. Bringing Nemo and friends to the pavilion, while not what I thought should be done, did have the potential to be a good thing. However, there were some definite short comings in how the pavilion was transformed. Take the initial ride through for example. It misses a BIG opportunity to bring a bit of education into a fresh, unique stroyline. Why not have Nemo and company be, say, our tourguides to the different regions of the ocean? There you go, an exciting, adventurous storyline (you could even lose Nemo along the way and then find him again) while at the same time, some educational value! Instead, we get to watch Nemo simply get lost and found again. In other words, we watch a remix of the movie. Hey, I'll admit its cute and all, and that kind of idea works well for Fantasyland, but not for the ideas behind Epcot.

And then theres Turtle Talk. Its not bad, its just that, once again, too much with the cute characters and not enough with the learning element. Personally, I think Mr. Ray would have been a more apropo character to use; imagine retheming the show so that you are part of Mr. Ray's class for the day? There would still be great character interaction but, once again, in a more educational sort of way.

Finally, the rest of the pavilion, yeah what is it? Is it still a Seabase beneath the sea? If it is, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in any kind of stroy. This is the weakest part of the pavilion now, and its not because you can see outside when you're walking around.

And just to address some other points:

- Club Cool would work much better in World Showcase rather than in Innoventions. How about placing it in the Outpost?

- Ellen does not belong in UoE, though Bill Nye did work a bit.

- Captain EO was a stretch, though it was "imaginative" so I suppose it kinda sorta worked (but not really). Then again, what actually defines a film that works for the Imagination pavilion?

- Soarin' needs to become Soarin' Over the World to fit into The Land.

- M:S, while having a weak storyline, is somewhat futuristic in the sense we are training to go to Mars where we now have a space colony.

Thats my two cents I guess. Interesting debate as usual. :wave:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Not that anything in Future World has to do with the Future any more.

Anyways, the answer is Nemo fits because they are the "Hosts" of the Pavilion. It's like asking "How does Ellen fit in with Future World?" or "How does Martin Short fit into Canada?". Since the days of Dreamfinder and Wonders of Life, the idea has been to ground "Hosts" as a central part of EPCOT attractions.

Argue as you wish, just sayin' that's the answer since no one told you.

They host? Hardly seems like hosting to me. You get put into their universe, and that's about it. :shrug:

Telling someone they're not a fan of EPCOT because they're okay with Nemo. Not only is that just ridiculous, but there's no basis behind it. It's insulting to those of use that have watched EPCOT change over the past 34 years (in my case), and evolve. Evan, for instance, likes EPCOT of '94. That's wonderful. I prefer '84. Are either of us wrong? I don't think so.

As I explained before, FW is about learning. Many times, they used a character (i.e: Figment, the family in Horizons), to get you into a pavilion. They've used Nemo to do the same. Once your past his little story, you're into the learning annex of the pavilion. Which has been barely changed, except paint colors.



FW is always supposed to be evolving, like Tomorrowland. It's a tough job to keep these massive building relevant for longer than a few years. They've lost sponsorships, and have to bring in dollars anyway they can. Nemo was the best way to do so. Is the integrity of FW lost? Maybe. I don't know, the whole area isn't what it was originally supposed to be, but again, the GP is what drives these parks, not the collection of goofs like us that want it to remain true to it's origins. Was Nemo the greatest overlay? Probably not for intergrity sakes, but lets face it, Soarin', Test Track, and Imagination aren't real mind blowing either. They lost their way in the late 90's (as you ahve excellently pointed out), and I think they're pointed in the right direction. FW is hardly dying as is pointed out earlier. I think we're about to see the renaissance of that portion of EPCOT.

1993. I was there in Jan of 93. :lol: I saw EPCOT CENTER.


I'm going to agree with on the most part, however, Nemo really does not help with the futuristic part of the attraction, and where is the futuristic part of the attraction?

If Nemo were in the future, we really wouldn't have a problem.

But well said.

You are talking to a cartoon character! In real time! Without a recorded spiel!

If that isn't futuristic enough for you, then you aren't looking and boardline refusing to see it.

Have you been there (seriously, I can't remember). Almost all the bays are still intact with everything that was there before and more. We lost a boring film and a omnimover that hadn't omnimoved in 10 years.

Why do you get to pick what matters or not?

It's all or nothing Evan. If you are going to complain about TLS the same rigorous standard should apply to every nook and cranny of Epcot.

That's why I like Animal Kingdom. The message delivers tangible results, not warm fuzzies that differ from person to person.

Huh!? How is that being in the future? It's FANTASY. It's not technology, or even the buzz word of "Discovery" that all these people want to shoe horn onto Future World.

Are you are trying to tell me the tech they used to do this is supposed to make the attraction suddenly be futuristic? That's really pulling at straws, Jake.

Of course I have been there....I am talking about the RIDE AND THE CHARACTERS. The Plaques are fine.

I'm not picking...The original standards they had for EPCOT are. YES, Jake, I know you are going to say that things change, and I expect them to. But really, this was a uncreative way out.

Animal Kingdom? Sure...It's young. they haven't changed it yet.:lol:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

How is it that everything always comes back to Epcot? :lol:

Anyway, first to the OP: I disagree for the most part that the parks all losing their identities and becoming clones of the MK. You can argue that certain elements and attractions in each park are, but not the parks as a whole. Each one certainy still maintains its identity.

Now, to the topic thats being debated:

The Living Seas was old and stale; I don't think anyone will refute that. Bringing Nemo and friends to the pavilion, while not what I thought should be done, did have the potential to be a good thing. However, there were some definite short comings in how the pavilion was transformed. Take the initial ride through for example. It misses a BIG opportunity to bring a bit of education into a fresh, unique stroyline. Why not have Nemo and company be, say, our tourguides to the different regions of the ocean? There you go, an exciting, adventurous storyline (you could even lose Nemo along the way and then find him again) while at the same time, some educational value! Instead, we get to watch Nemo simply get lost and found again. In other words, we watch a remix of the movie. Hey, I'll admit its cute and all, and that kind of idea works well for Fantasyland, but not for the ideas behind Epcot.

And then theres Turtle Talk. Its not bad, its just that, once again, too much with the cute characters and not enough with the learning element. Personally, I think Mr. Ray would have been a more apropo character to use; imagine retheming the show so that you are part of Mr. Ray's class for the day? There would still be great character interaction but, once again, in a more educational sort of way.

Finally, the rest of the pavilion, yeah what is it? Is it still a Seabase beneath the sea? If it is, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in any kind of stroy. This is the weakest part of the pavilion now, and its not because you can see outside when you're walking around.

Exactly. And to add that the visual illusin that they created was totally destroyed.:brick:

 

[ryno1982]

Here's my take on Epcot Future World.

SSE- a mess. Totally ruined and not worthy of the park's icon.
Universe of Energy- still educational, but outdated beyond belief.
Mission: Space- an epic disappointment. The total opposite of Horizons.
Test Track - a fun ride, but very loosely connected to Future World. Once Radiator Springs Racers opens at DCA, its charm will vanish. It will be our Dinosaur to their Indiana Jones.
Imagination - does not even attempt to explain the creative process, which should be easy since it's the one pavilion that could accommodate cartoons. It is an embarrassment to the name Disney.
The Land - In pieces, everything is enjoyable, but together the pavilion doesn't really make sense.
The Seas - The ride isn't that bad, but it isn't educational, nor futuristic. Seabase is no longer effective. Like everything else in FW, it lacks focus.
Innoventions - Lame. The Sum of All Thrills was awful.

It's painful to think about, but Epcot is probably Disney's weakest park in Florida. I find it very hard to have a satisfying and fun day there. Before 2006, I still enjoyed the park even with Nemo and Imagination, but I think the new SSE was the nail in the coffin for me, and the park officially lost its soul after that. I don't care if they add a metal logo to a railing or paint a building blue. It's not going to matter at all.

 

[urbanvegan]

Here's my take on Epcot Future World.

SSE- a mess. Totally ruined and not worthy of the park's icon.
Universe of Energy- still educational, but outdated beyond belief.
Mission: Space- an epic disappointment. The total opposite of Horizons.
Test Track - a fun ride, but very loosely connected to Future World. Once Radiator Springs Racers opens at DCA, its charm will vanish. It will be our Dinosaur to their Indiana Jones.
Imagination - does not even attempt to explain the creative process, which should be easy since it's the one pavilion that could accommodate cartoons. It is an embarrassment to the name Disney.
The Land - In pieces, everything is enjoyable, but together the pavilion doesn't really make sense.
The Seas - The ride isn't that bad, but it isn't educational, nor futuristic. Seabase is no longer effective. Like everything else in FW, it lacks focus.
Innoventions - Lame. The Sum of All Thrills was awful.

It's painful to think about, but Epcot is probably Disney's weakest park in Florida. I find it very hard to have a satisfying and fun day there. Before 2006, I still enjoyed the park even with Nemo and Imagination, but I think the new SSE was the nail in the coffin for me, and the park officially lost its soul after that. I don't care if they add a metal logo to a railing or paint a building blue. It's not going to matter at all.

I could hardly disagree with you more.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

Here's my take on Epcot Future World.

SSE- a mess. Totally ruined and not worthy of the park's icon.
Universe of Energy- still educational, but outdated beyond belief.
Mission: Space- an epic disappointment. The total opposite of Horizons.
Test Track - a fun ride, but very loosely connected to Future World. Once Radiator Springs Racers opens at DCA, its charm will vanish. It will be our Dinosaur to their Indiana Jones.
Imagination - does not even attempt to explain the creative process, which should be easy since it's the one pavilion that could accommodate cartoons. It is an embarrassment to the name Disney.
The Land - In pieces, everything is enjoyable, but together the pavilion doesn't really make sense.
The Seas - The ride isn't that bad, but it isn't educational, nor futuristic. Seabase is no longer effective. Like everything else in FW, it lacks focus.
Innoventions - Lame. The Sum of All Thrills was awful.

It's painful to think about, but Epcot is probably Disney's weakest park in Florida. I find it very hard to have a satisfying and fun day there. Before 2006, I still enjoyed the park even with Nemo and Imagination, but I think the new SSE was the nail in the coffin for me, and the park officially lost its soul after that. I don't care if they add a metal logo to a railing or paint a building blue. It's not going to matter at all.

I too could not disagree more... :shrug:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Here's my take on Epcot Future World.

SSE- a mess. Totally ruined and not worthy of the park's icon.
Universe of Energy- still educational, but outdated beyond belief.
Mission: Space- an epic disappointment. The total opposite of Horizons.
Test Track - a fun ride, but very loosely connected to Future World. Once Radiator Springs Racers opens at DCA, its charm will vanish. It will be our Dinosaur to their Indiana Jones.
Imagination - does not even attempt to explain the creative process, which should be easy since it's the one pavilion that could accommodate cartoons. It is an embarrassment to the name Disney.
The Land - In pieces, everything is enjoyable, but together the pavilion doesn't really make sense.
The Seas - The ride isn't that bad, but it isn't educational, nor futuristic. Seabase is no longer effective. Like everything else in FW, it lacks focus.
Innoventions - Lame. The Sum of All Thrills was awful.

It's painful to think about, but Epcot is probably Disney's weakest park in Florida. I find it very hard to have a satisfying and fun day there. Before 2006, I still enjoyed the park even with Nemo and Imagination, but I think the new SSE was the nail in the coffin for me, and the park officially lost its soul after that. I don't care if they add a metal logo to a railing or paint a building blue. It's not going to matter at all.

I agree with those two things, but that's about it.:lol:

Sorry you feel like that. I know that missing EPCOT Center sometimes gets in the way fo things, but yeah, it'll never be the same.

 

[jakeman]

They host? Hardly seems like hosting to me. You get put into their universe, and that's about it. :shrug:

1993. I was there in Jan of 93. :lol: I saw EPCOT CENTER.

Weren't you 4 years old?

Are you are trying to tell me the tech they used to do this is supposed to make the attraction suddenly be futuristic? That's really pulling at straws, Jake.

It is? Perhaps you should ask the kids that just talked to Crush and learned some facts about sea turtles.

Of course I have been there....I am talking about the RIDE AND THE CHARACTERS. The Plaques are fine.

You refuse to see it. That's all and that's sad.

You are so caught up in what Epcot should be, you aren't seeing the positive impact it is having right now.

All the caveats and rules in the world can be adhered to, but it doesn't matter if the pavilion holds no interest for anyone.

You are starting to remind me of a former poster here that got so caught up in his own ideals and image of Epcot he couldn't see the positive changes going on around him.

 

[urbanvegan]

Ryno, just out of curiosity -

If you find Epcot so painful and soulless, and you can't have days there that are either satisfying or fun; why waste time talking about it on message boards? To paraphrase: Maybe EPCOT's just not that into you. :ROFLOL:

I guess, just speaking for myself: I don't concern myself with things that disgust me so much.

 

[Figment632]

Weren't you 4 years old?


It is? Perhaps you should ask the kids that just talked to Crush and learned some facts about sea turtles.

You refuse to see it. That's all and that's sad.

You are so caught up in what Epcot should be, you aren't seeing the positive impact it is having right now.

All the caveats and rules in the world can be adhered to, but it doesn't matter if the pavilion holds no interest for anyone.

You are starting to remind me of a former poster here that got so caught up in his own ideals and image of Epcot he couldn't see the positive changes going on around him.

But just because you think it is a positive change doesn't mean that we have to :shrug:

 

[mcjaco]

But just because you think it is a positive change doesn't mean that we have to :shrug:

Unfortunately, if management tried to keep to the original message of FW, it's be a dead zone nowadays. It's the way society is, and the GP that comes through the gates. They want thrills, and to not be educated, but entertained.

Jake's right, there are many positives going on in FW, but if you can't look past to what it was supposed to be circa '82, you'll never see it. Old FW is done, gone, kaput. As long as they create a fusion of what the GP wants and what FW is supposed to be, that's all you can ask for.

 

[Lucky]

But they employ some highly-paid people who should be able to develop Epcot attractions that are more entertaining and more educational. WoL had both. The Land, TLS, SSE & Innovations - whatever their imperfections - are more entertaining and informative than UoE or Imagination pavilion.