WDW Taking a Hit Over Gator and Massacre ...

[21stamps]

Just a point of information - "brain eating amoeba" can be found in ANY stagnant water that gets warm enough. It has been found in lakes in North Carolina, and even ponds/small lakes further north. It's definitely found in ponds and lakes in Texas. So if you are staying near a pond, and there has been a period of higher than average temperatures - watch out.

I can't remember where, but I know just recently it was in a Mid Western state. We were camping early this week on a lake, and I can't say that I didn't think about when going down the slide or when kiddo was jumping off the platform float. The water was cold so I felt OK, but I did have him wear his snorkeling goggles to cover his nose.

Edit- Kansas, Minnesota, and I think I read Indiana. All places I wouldn't expect.

 

[DisneyJeff]

You are so over simplifying the situation - they flooded a swamp and created this and then put beaches right up to it. That's different than building a city. But you know that. The alligators stay out of populated areas, while this fake lagoon basically built them a perfect habitat that's both isolated and populated at the same time, with many non-locals who don't know better (or care) feeding them creating an entirely different scenario.

Can you explain why the fact that the Seven Seas Lagoon is man-made has any relevance to the issue? It's not like they opened up the flood gates and made a lake last month, last year, or even last decade. It's been there for 45+ years now. At this point, isn't a lake just a lake? I don't see any difference between SSL and Bay Lake.

 

[SorcererMC]

I don't want to go in circles like the first alligator thread did. I just don't understand why people can't accept that animal attacks CAN happen. It doesn't mean they will happen. It doesn't mean a property owner is negligent. It means we are dealing with a creature who doesn't care about signs or laws or anything else. A creature who you can have teams of people looking out for, and reporting accordingly. But the creatures move. They rarely sit in one spot waiting to be discovered.

The fact that a gator was spotted in the area did not make the beach dangerous. They are always around, and they rarely will bother anyone. A young child was bent over in the water at dusk. An alligator "shouldn't" have attacked but it was that one in 2.2 million chance that actually happened at that exact time.

It is FLORIDA.
Wildlife attacks will happen, probably not in the same place twice, and probably not to you, or me, or our friends, or family, or anyone that we know..because they are RARE.
Do you guys honestly think that this was the first large gator on WDW property? Or that a beach on Seven Seas Lagoon is anymore dangerous than Bay Lake? Man made is irrelevant. There has always been gators. 1 attack out of millions upon millions of visitors isn't cause for this kind of blame game.

Take comfort in the fact that Disney has now gone to extreme measure to comfort all of the people who they know have the irrational mindset of thinking that one attack will equal more. Solely because these people can't just accept the situation for what it is- horrible isolated tragedy. It's the society we live in now.
Next up- ban people from water anywhere in Florida. Build partitions to keep them at a "safe" distance. That is where this mindset will eventually lead us, and it frightens me more than an alligator ever will.

You misunderstood my post. Please stop saying that I am 'blaming' Disney. It's not about blame. It's about them taking responsibility for an accident that occurred on their property - which they have done to the fullest extent as far as I can tell, and I have no issue with it. I have no more to say on this.

 

[21stamps]

You misunderstood my post. Please stop saying that I am 'blaming' Disney. It's not about blame. It's about them taking responsibility for an accident that occurred on their property - which they have done to the fullest extent as far as I can tell, and I have no issue with it. I have no more to say on this.

Florida has laws protecting property owners from this. The fact that employees were notified could make a gray area..at least if it went before a jury.
I'm glad the family didn't sue, and I wish that somehow they will recover from this pain. This should be the end that anyone has to say about it.

You and I respectfully disagree on many points..but there are also times where I agree with you, I'm sure one of those will be coming soon.lol.

 

[The Mom]

Can you explain why the fact that the Seven Seas Lagoon is man-made has any relevance to the issue? It's not like they opened up the flood gates and made a lake last month, last year, or even last decade. It's been there for 45+ years now. At this point, isn't a lake just a lake? I don't see any difference between SSL and Bay Lake.

I think it is because they extended/created a habitat that did not naturally exist - which increased the number of gators breeding there. Nature has a way of keeping populations (including humans) under control until/unless humans interfere. Once they became protected, their numbers rose even higher, as adult humans (mostly male) were their #1 predator.

 

[JenniferS]

A full-length film probably doesn't hold a two or three year-old's attention.

Not Zootopia, that's for sure.

 

[jaklgreen]

I live in "Middle America" currently. I have 21 stamps on my passport, adding another next year, not to mention the cruise ports I have been in, and others I will see in a few months (you don't get your passport stamped in most ports). I also have been all over the US.

I can promise you that I am not the only one living in "middle America" who has traveled like that..and plenty have done a lot more than I have.

I live a few miles from that family and being landlocked is no excuse to not do a bit of research on your travel destination. We have been going for 2 decades and knew, even back then, that there were gators in Florida. They use gators on tourist signs, at the airport, etc. Heck they sell gummy and chocolate gators at the gift shops at the airport. We always assumed there would be an alligator in the water. Because not being a native, we eered on the side of caution. I would like to maybe explain why some ascribe a bit of blame to the parents. When you, on a day to day basis, look and see possible harms that can come to you and your child, it does not turn off ever. So to those who minds automatically are constantly saying "what are all of the possible things that can happen in this situation", it is hard to fathom that others do not think like this. Not saying right or wrong here, just explaining why some, in their minds, know that they never would have been in that situation. There are plenty of people who go near the water and let their kids play in the sand by the water in the evening. But there are others, maybe its a 6th sense or something, that doing that just does not feel right. I can see it both way, thinking it is safe and also being leery of it. So for those who say, "how can you blame the parents, its not their fault". Others think, "why were they in the water? Who puts themselves in that situation?".

 

[PhotoDave219]

I live a few miles from that family and being landlocked is no excuse to not do a bit of research on your travel destination. We have been going for 2 decades and knew, even back then, that there were gators in Florida. They use gators on tourist signs, at the airport, etc. Heck they sell gummy and chocolate gators at the gift shops at the airport. We always assumed there would be an alligator in the water. Because not being a native, we eered on the side of caution. I would like to maybe explain why some ascribe a bit of blame to the parents. When you, on a day to day basis, look and see possible harms that can come to you and your child, it does not turn off ever. So to those who minds automatically are constantly saying "what are all of the possible things that can happen in this situation", it is hard to fathom that others do not think like this. Not saying right or wrong here, just explaining why some, in their minds, know that they never would have been in that situation. There are plenty of people who go near the water and let their kids play in the sand by the water in the evening. But there are others, maybe its a 6th sense or something, that doing that just does not feel right. I can see it both way, thinking it is safe and also being leery of it. So for those who say, "how can you blame the parents, its not their fault". Others think, "why were they in the water? Who puts themselves in that situation?".

I do see it both ways. Alas.... That father watched his son get attacked and dragged away by an alligator.

That man has to carry that around with him until his dying days.

He doesn't need any criticism or Monday morning quarterbacking from me on his actions.

I hope someday he can find peace.

 

[jaklgreen]

I do see it both ways. Alas.... That father watched his son get attacked and dragged away by an alligator.

That man has to carry that around with him until his dying days.

He doesn't need any criticism or Monday morning quarterbacking from me on his actions.

I hope someday he can find peace.

Of course. My post was not to condemn the family but to try to explain that not everyone has the same mind set. That does not mean that one is right or wrong, just that there are many ways to look at a situation. I wouldn't wish what happened on anyone.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Of course. My post was not to condemn the family but to try to explain that not everyone has the same mind set. That does not mean that one is right or wrong, just that there are many ways to look at a situation. I wouldn't wish what happened on anyone.

Wasn't suggesting that you were.

There have been a few sociopaths around the Disney social media sphere who feel different and are rather unable to have any compassion for the victim's family. I may be a hard, veteran photojournalist who's seen some unspeakable things but even I have compassion and empathy.

 

[LongLiveTheKing]

I'm afraid of the snakes. We were chased off by a water moccasin, hiding in the plants, along the concrete path near the adult pool, at Saratoga Springs resort. We were walking along and this snake came out of nowhere, and started after grandson thrashing around, then grandson went to the side, with dd quick thinking, then it came after me, a ran backward's as fast as I could, yelling snake. It was still thrashing around and going after hubby, he moved away. I lived on a farm, and knew my snakes from the eastern and mid western US. This happened in June, I will now carry something to see at night, and something to repel snakes. Once is enough for us!

Saints preserve me for being a total wussy carebear but would it be possible to build some pretty, decorated and artsy elevated concrete ledges and then they put the bushes in those to remove an environment for very poisonous snakes? Like, I get being able to easily avoid crocodiles by staying away from beaches if you're familiar with Florida (which Disney has said are totally safe to be near until this incident for years) and not sticking your hands in Rivers Of America but to avoid entire walkways at a Disney hotel does not sound reasonable and I don't think CMs would look favorably on guests carrying machettes to defend themselves from snakes.

 

[LongLiveTheKing]

It's in the report. That evening, at least two guests reported alligator sightings to a CM, one around 7:30 and another about 8 I think. One of the CMs was on the beach and reported it to the 'Coordinator' (maybe the person organizing the viewing but it's not clear from the report).

There have been people reporting the alligators on Disney property and Rivers of America for years (there's a thread many years ago in DIS with pictures about gators in ROA and water near the turkey leg vendor looking for handouts) and most of the time nothing has been done. Now, whether or not it's feasible to remove the alligators (instead of just blocking off where gators could go...) is another debate, but gators have been chilling on Disney property unopposed for a very, very long time, which also adds onto the people making points that the wildlife at WDW is NOT afraid of humans anymore and a freak incident like this was only a matter of time with these increasing chances of human gator interaction.

 

[SorcererMC]

There have been people reporting the alligators on Disney property and Rivers of America for years (there's a thread many years ago in DIS with pictures about gators in ROA and water near the turkey leg vendor looking for handouts) and most of the time nothing has been done. Now, whether or not it's feasible to remove the alligators (instead of just blocking off where gators could go...) is another debate, but gators have been chilling on Disney property unopposed for a very, very long time, which also adds onto the people making points that the wildlife at WDW is NOT afraid of humans anymore and a freak incident like this was only a matter of time with these increasing chances of human gator interaction.

TWDC has an ongoing program w/ FWC for gator removal. I don't know how long that program has been in place, nor how frequently alligators are removed or in what numbers. (Following the incident, at least 5-6 were removed).

There is a difference between a 'general danger' of alligators (regular sightings) vs. an 'immediate danger' that Disney was aware of (ie alligators near GF the same evening). I agree with you in that it probably was only a matter of time before there would be an incident due to that human interaction, and what I've said before is that Disney was aware of this since they knew 1. alligators were being fed. and 2. alligators were being removed from the property.

ETA: It is a common misconception that risk at any fixed point in time is constant; it's not, it varies according to time and place and varying conditions (eg alligator mating season). This is what I was trying to get across in my earlier post.

 

[GoofGoof]

Let's consider the definition of "lure":

tempt (a person or an animal) to do something or to go somewhere, especially by offering some form of reward​

When Disney offers you "Free Dining", are they trying to "lure" you to visit WDW?

In this case, Disney offered a free film on the beach to its Guests. Heck yes, that was a "lure".

OK. I consider the term "lure" to mean something that is offered to get you to do something else that usually results in a profit. Free dining gets me to book a trip to WDW where I pay for park tickets and a full rack rate hotel room. I don't see the free movie on the beach as a lure because it's just a free movie, unless you think the free movie was a primary reason that people come to WDW and/or stayed at GF. For me it's more like getting chocolates on my pillow at turn down. A nice little bonus, but not at all a reason to pick a certain hotel or destination. I guess it doesn't really matter either way. Just clarifying my way of looking at it.

 

[GoofGoof]

A full-length film probably doesn't hold a two or three year-old's attention.

Which is probably why the poor kid was building a sand castle. I know from experience very little holds a 2 or 3 year olds attention, but when they have an older sibling sometimes they are brought places that they wouldn't be if they were an only child. I can't understand how anyone can blame the parents for bringing their kids to the movie on the beach. It's a perfectly appropriate place to be.

 

[SorcererMC]

OK. I consider the term "lure" to mean something that is offered to get you to do something else that usually results in a profit. Free dining gets me to book a trip to WDW where I pay for park tickets and a full rack rate hotel room. I don't see the free movie on the beach as a lure because it's just a free movie, unless you think the free movie was a primary reason that people come to WDW and/or stayed at GF. For me it's more like getting chocolates on my pillow at turn down. A nice little bonus, but not at all a reason to pick a certain hotel or destination. I guess it doesn't really matter either way. Just clarifying my way of looking at it.

Perhaps it's better to consider the movie on the beach as an 'incentive' that Disney was offering for families to be there on the beach in the early evening.

 

[GoofGoof]

Perhaps it's better to consider the movie on the beach as an 'incentive' that Disney was offering for families to be on the beach in the early evening.

I guess I just fail to see this as Disney some how attempting to get people on the beach to try to put them in harms way. It was a free movie offered to guests staying at the hotel. It happens at night because the it needs to be dark. There was no underlying motivation by Disney to lure anyone anywhere or get people on the beach at a dangerous time. Disney was to blame for not having strong enough warnings and/or barriers to get people to stay away from the water. There is nothing wrong with offering the movie.

 

[SorcererMC]

I guess I just fail to see this as Disney some how attempting to get people on the beach to try to put them in harms way. It was a free movie offered to guests staying at the hotel. It happens at night because the it needs to be dark. There was no underlying motivation by Disney to lure anyone anywhere or get people on the beach at a dangerous time. Disney was to blame for not having strong enough warnings and/or barriers to get people to stay away from the water. There is nothing wrong with offering the movie.

(emphasis added). It doesn't mean that Disney had 'intent' to put people in harm's way (surely they do not)....it's that Disney was creating a set of conditions (including offering the movie) that put people at risk, without warning of that risk via signs or verbal warnings. There were reports of alligators in the vicinity preceding the movie time...if it's alligator mating season, then it is a dangerous time compared to other times of the year.

ETA: I understand your point of view, I have to move on to other things and it's probably better if I let it go at this point.

 

[mimitchi33]

There have been people reporting the alligators on Disney property and Rivers of America for years (there's a thread many years ago in DIS with pictures about gators in ROA and water near the turkey leg vendor looking for handouts) and most of the time nothing has been done. Now, whether or not it's feasible to remove the alligators (instead of just blocking off where gators could go...) is another debate, but gators have been chilling on Disney property unopposed for a very, very long time, which also adds onto the people making points that the wildlife at WDW is NOT afraid of humans anymore and a freak incident like this was only a matter of time with these increasing chances of human gator interaction.

I can get why they would want to wat turkey legs...but the other areas seem strange.

Read my post above lol. This isn't a Disney thing. It's a Florida thing. Alligators and people have been living together for many years. It's why Florida has a process for gator removal.

If we lived in fear of any bad thing that could happen then we would never leave our homes, or at least not have a very interesting life. I'll choose education, awareness, and precaution when needed. As for Zika, Orlando and Miami are not anywhere near what a mosquito could fly. I don't blame pregnant/trying women to be cautious of certain destinations. DCL sent us all an email of 'what to do'. I think most of us already knew, but I think the email was a good thing. We'll be wearing our mosquito repellent in the Caribbean this year. I do that anyway though, West Nile is also carried by mosquitos, I don't want to catch it, so why not wear it to prevent that nastiness.

Great point. Being scared doesn't get you anywhere! I don't get why all those suncream ads make a big fuss out of it!

Also...what's so inappropriate about Zootopia? I think I need to go back and watch it again now

The film has very violent scenes with savage animals attacking.

 

[21stamps]

I can get why they would want to wat turkey legs...but the other areas seem strange.

Great point. Being scared doesn't get you anywhere! I don't get why all those suncream ads make a big fuss out of it!

The film has very violent scenes with savage animals attacking.

Sunscreen? Harmful UV rays are comparable to being in or near a lake? I don't know if you are making a joke or not..

Zootopia though, are we seriously saying that Disney shouldn't show that movie? My kid didn't watch tv/movies/any electronics until age 3..not saying that's right or wrong, just what I wanted. As soon as I did allow him to- you better believe that I know what is in every show or movie. Can "we", at some point, take a little personal responsibility instead of expecting everyone to coddle and cater to us? Imagine what the world would be like...especially this country.

This just took 2 seconds to find this info, from my phone. How hard can that be?
(Btw - common sense media is a great website if anyone doesn't use it! )