WDW Taking a Hit Over Gator and Massacre ...

[21stamps]

There were reports of alligators being fed on property or close to it (Reedy Creek in April, I believe). Disney has an ongoing program w/ FWC for alligator removal, they know that alligators are on property. There were reports of alligators in the lagoon that evening before the incident occurred, yet they still hosted the movie viewing, apparently without warning guests (eg reports of dangerous wildlife in the area and keep your eyes out). The signs at GF did not warn about alligators.

There is very little wiggle room here, even taking into account the history of no known incidents. Too many qualitative risk factors in a recent time frame that were assessed poorly. (I'm not armchair quarterbacking this - I have a background in risk analysis on intl issues. Low risk does not mean zero risk). They are taking steps now to minimize any further risk.

Edit: Let me add that, before reading the report, I might have agreed with you b/c what you are saying is logical. The facts in this case show that the onus is upon Disney to prevent this sort of accident on their property to the extent that is possible, and they fell short of doing so for the reasons listed above.

This has been discussed and discussed. The signs do not need to say it. They just don't. They do now, and that's great for all people who do not know that alligators are in Florida, but they shouldn't be needed.

This was an accident. I don't know what the Disney employees did. I hope they followed protocol. Bottom line still is that a gator in the vicinity does not inherently equal an attack.
There is no way that alligator would have came up onto a beach, in a crowd of people watching a movie, and attacked someone. People can say whatever they want- but that would not happen.
The report said the boy was bent over. A 2 year old, bent over in the water, looks like prey to an alligator. It's horrible, but it was just a tragedy. One that I don't think could have been prevented- not without a lot more warning than what was reported.

I think that the only good that could come from this (and I'm not saying the parents weren't) is for people to start educating themselves on where they are traveling. Just in this thread people have shown that they think "brain eating amobe" only live in seven seas lagoon. They clearly don't understand where alligators are. Maybe it's time, while someone is obviously on the interwebs anyway, to learn more than just what restaurant serves the best milkshakes at WDW.

Lastly, Those of us who don't live in fear, who do understand our surroundings, probably could have had the same thing happen to us..even with that knowledge. It wouldn't mean anyone is to blame. The time of day/night wasn't the best time to walk in the water, but even so-- No one thinks that an alligator will lunge out of the water and snatch you, because the chance is so amazingly minimal. It's why these stories are always shocking.

No one is at fault.

Edited to add- it also doesn't mean that being around, or doing a water sport, in seven seas lagoon is any more dangerous now than it was when people were still allowed to actually swim in it. Really, between this and the Zika threads I just can't wrap my mind around why anyone would live in or visit Florida.

 

[LongLiveTheKing]

I can't believe someone would have the audacity to blame the parents. So sad all the way around!

There are people on this very board that blame the parents and are rude about it. It's disgusting.

 

[betty rose]

I look forward to seeing apologies to the Graves family from the forum members who posted hundreds of times in the week following this tragedy that it was the fault of the boy for swimming where he shouldn't have been, or the fault of his parents for ignoring the No Swimming signs, or that his parents had been drinking, or that his parents were sue-happy and would bleed Disney dry, or any of the numerous other blame-the-victim theories that abounded on this forum.

I would like to like this a million percent. I'm sick of people jumping to conclusions. A sweet little boy died needlessly. If only.....it still makes my heart hurt....for the little guy and the family.....

 

[betty rose]

The DNA and bite marks are inconclusive? And how do they know the trapper got the right one?

Now, this news really scares me.

 

[betty rose]

The most horrifying part of the report was that the dad actually saw the gator grab the boy by the head. That image will live in his nightmares forever. I can't even...

Me either...

 

[AEfx]

I always get surprised when people think that the "brain eating bacteria" only exists at WDW. It is/can be found in fresh water- pretty much anywhere. It is not even close to a Disney exclusive.

Never stated that it was.

However, it was unknown at the beginning because they allowed swimming for a number of years before it was discovered at WDW and swimming was banned.

I also don't think that "nothing has gone right with the lagoon" is close to accurate. I've always loved that area, regardless of if it was swimming as a child, on the beach as an adult, or participating in water sports during either phase of my life. Myself and my child will continue to do water sports or rent a boat in that water as well.

That's just lovely for you. And completely aside from the point. No where did I say that "no one has found the lagoon a lovely place". However, as I clearly outlined - the intentions of the lagoon's construction, aside from "oooh pretty" - as a swimming place, as a fishing place, as a beach replica with waves - were all removed because of the dangers and issues that were unforeseen.

Bottom Line- Seven Seas Lagoon is not any more dangerous than any other body of water in Florida.

LOL. Then you haven't been paying attention.

These dangers do indeed occur in any body of water in Florida. However, Disney has created an environment for those dangers to thrive for all the reasons folks have been discussing here. So yes, the behavior of alligators who are growing up in this area are going to be more dangerous as they are being accustomed to humans in ways that they are not elsewhere. I don't see how one could even debate that.

Bottom line - Disney mucked with nature and built a lagoon that they thought they would be able to control, and they couldn't - and built up "beachfront" property using that illusion to sell it. It's coming to roost now, and that's why we are seeing the changes we are, and will likely continue to see.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Now, this news really scares me.

According to the report there wasn't any animal DNA found in the victim's wounds. There was nothing to compare to.

FWC said they had several gators they euthanized that could have been the one. Six or so.

I'm confident that based on the FWC report (and a few other things) that the gator responsible is no longer with us. I can't go into the few other things but I wouldn't put it out there if I wasn't very confident.

 

[AEfx]

Edited to add- it also doesn't mean that being around, or doing a water sport, in seven seas lagoon is any more dangerous now than it was when people were still allowed to actually swim in it.

That's just completely incorrect.

You cannot ignore the fact that the lagoon isn't some bubble stuck in time. Look at what has happened in that area over the past 40 years. How much more crowded in it is. How many more people are in and around that area than ever before. Hell, they are putting people up for the night on floating rafts in the water now, LOL.

And all that time, the wildlife has been desensitized to humans so much that this was not a freak occurrence, but an inevitability that just got more and more likely as more and more building and generations of animals began having their entire life-cycles there, not just wandering through.

As to the Zika thing - I haven't followed it really, but given how one can't open up a news site or flip to a news channel and not see as a top story how Zika is in Florida (Miami or not - we are talking about flying insects and a disease that has traveled continents, so it's only a matter of time before it moves further), I don't blame people for worrying, even if they may be overreacting based on the nonstop media scare over it (which now includes them showing pictures of deformed babies to amp up the scares).

 

[21stamps]

Never stated that it was.

However, it was unknown at the beginning because they allowed swimming for a number of years before it was discovered at WDW and swimming was banned.



That's just lovely for you. And completely aside from the point. No where did I say that "no one has found the lagoon a lovely place". However, as I clearly outlined - the intentions of the lagoon's construction, aside from "oooh pretty" - as a swimming place, as a fishing place, as a beach replica with waves - were all removed because of the dangers and issues that were unforeseen.



LOL. Then you haven't been paying attention.

These dangers do indeed occur in any body of water in Florida. However, Disney has created an environment for those dangers to thrive for all the reasons folks have been discussing here. So yes, the behavior of alligators who are growing up in this area are going to be more dangerous as they are being accustomed to humans in ways that they are not elsewhere. I don't see how one could even debate that.

Bottom line - Disney mucked with nature and built a lagoon that they thought they would be able to control, and they couldn't - and built up "beachfront" property using that illusion to sell it. It's coming to roost now, and that's why we are seeing the changes we are, and will likely continue to see.

The "brain eating bacteria" doesn't just stay in one place indefinitely. It comes and goes, and could happen anywhere that there is warm water. 99.999% of the time it is unknown until someone does from it. No one, not even Disney, tests water for it. If you want to be 100% safe then only swim in pools or the ocean. Then again, there's plenty of other things in the ocean, so...stick to pools

The lagoon is/was still enjoyed. It's why myself and millions of other people will pay stupid prices to have a room facing it, and hang out on the beach in front of it.

Disney hasn't created an environment that is any different than any man made place in Florida. There are cities built on top of the Everglades. People do live in them. There are lots of alligators around. Most never get attacked by one. There is no debate because that it the truth.

I just have to point out facts. It's easy to sensationalize, but if you lived in Florida, or if you travel there often and took a moment to learn about it, you would realize that these claims are just not true. At the very least, again- not really any different than most of the state.

 

[21stamps]

That's just completely incorrect.

You cannot ignore the fact that the lagoon isn't some bubble stuck in time. Look at what has happened in that area over the past 40 years. How much more crowded in it is. How many more people are in and around that area than ever before. Hell, they are putting people up for the night on floating rafts in the water now, LOL.

And all that time, the wildlife has been desensitized to humans so much that this was not a freak occurrence, but an inevitability that just got more and more likely as more and more building and generations of animals began having their entire life-cycles there, not just wandering through.

As to the Zika thing - I haven't followed it really, but given how one can't open up a news site or flip to a news channel and not see as a top story how Zika is in Florida (Miami or not - we are talking about flying insects and a disease that has traveled continents, so it's only a matter of time before it moves further), I don't blame people for worrying, even if they may be overreacting based on the nonstop media scare over it (which now includes them showing pictures of deformed babies to amp up the scares).

Read my post above lol. This isn't a Disney thing. It's a Florida thing. Alligators and people have been living together for many years. It's why Florida has a process for gator removal.

If we lived in fear of any bad thing that could happen then we would never leave our homes, or at least not have a very interesting life. I'll choose education, awareness, and precaution when needed. As for Zika, Orlando and Miami are not anywhere near what a mosquito could fly. I don't blame pregnant/trying women to be cautious of certain destinations. DCL sent us all an email of 'what to do'. I think most of us already knew, but I think the email was a good thing. We'll be wearing our mosquito repellent in the Caribbean this year. I do that anyway though, West Nile is also carried by mosquitos, I don't want to catch it, so why not wear it to prevent that nastiness.

 

[AEfx]

Disney hasn't created an environment that is any different than any man made place in Florida. There are cities built on top of the Everglades. People do live in them. There are lots of alligators around. Most never get attacked by one. There is no debate because that it the truth.

You are so over simplifying the situation - they flooded a swamp and created this and then put beaches right up to it. That's different than building a city. But you know that. The alligators stay out of populated areas, while this fake lagoon basically built them a perfect habitat that's both isolated and populated at the same time, with many non-locals who don't know better (or care) feeding them creating an entirely different scenario.

 

[AEfx]

Read my post above lol. This isn't a Disney thing. It's a Florida thing. Alligators and people have been living together for many years. It's why Florida has a process for gator removal.

Yeah, that's why Florida has the reputation it has LOL. It's not viewed as a pleasant place in a lot of ways. That's aside the point, but you keep mentioning it so it's hard not to bring up that fact...

In any case, most people (even those who weren't indoctrinated on the bad things that can happen in Florida) wouldn't just jump or go near standing water just anywhere. This isn't just anywhere. It's on Disney property, yards away from where Disney is plopping people down on a beach to watch a movie. That they have built up as a beachfront property - yet you can't go near the water.

It's really simple, you just for whatever reason are ignoring the facts pertinent here.

 

[21stamps]

You are so over simplifying the situation - they flooded a swamp and created this and then put beaches right up to it. That's different than building a city. But you know that. The alligators stay out of populated areas, while this fake lagoon basically built them a perfect habitat that's both isolated and populated at the same time, with many non-locals who don't know better (or care) feeding them creating an entirely different scenario.

It's the same thing, and it is that simple. Florida is overbuilt, that's been a debate for years. It's actually worse in the Everglades if you want to get technical. Pets go missing all of the time there, mostly due to gators. People? Not so much. When a person does get attacked or killed it's always a huge deal, but people don't flee the area and water isn't drained. This one was just amplified because the shock of it happening at WDW.

The fact is, if there is freshwater there is probably gators. A gator in a body of water doesn't equal an attack, which is why plenty of people go in or around freshwater in Florida. (Man made or not has no relevance) But- A gator could, on rare occasion, attack.
That's about as simplified as you can get, and it's completely accurate.

We aren't going to agree on this. If you're interested you could read about it. I'm not being sarcastic, Florida's ecosystem is actually very interesting.

 

[21stamps]

Yeah, that's why Florida has the reputation it has LOL. It's not viewed as a pleasant place in a lot of ways. That's aside the point, but you keep mentioning it so it's hard not to bring up that fact...

In any case, most people (even those who weren't indoctrinated on the bad things that can happen in Florida) wouldn't just jump or go near standing water just anywhere. This isn't just anywhere. It's on Disney property, yards away from where Disney is plopping people down on a beach to watch a movie. That they have built up as a beachfront property - yet you can't go near the water.

It's really simple, you just for whatever reason are ignoring the facts pertinent here.

It's only been 2 months since you couldn't "go near the water".

I don't know what your first sentence was referring to, or what horrible reputation regarding Florida, maybe I missed something on the amount of tourism the state has..

I just think we should give more people credit than assuming those who stay at Poly and GF are equating a WDW vacay with a "beachfront vacay". They're Disney World resorts, with a gorgeous view, pretty beach, and great access to MK. Being in the water is not that important, they have great pools for that. Playing on the beach with the castles and other attractions behind you- walking at the edge of the water, no I don't think these things are broadly dangerous. I think this was a highly unlikely horrible incident.

The same way that I don't think people should not go camping because they think a bear will attack them. Yes it could happen, but the risk is so slim. Sometimes horrible things just happen. It can be accepted, or it can be beat over and over and over, because some people are trying to rationalize and place blame. The blame is on nature.

 

[AEfx]

IThe blame is on nature.

And I think it's clearly "The blame is on people mucking with nature."

 

[JohnD]

The link is in this post
WDW Taking a Hit Over Gator and Massacre ...

Edit: Fair warning - it's not for the faint of heart IMO.

Yep. Heartbreaking. Sigh...

 

[JohnD]

Do you live in Florida? Exactly what was Disney suppose to do after at least two guests warned Disney about alligators? Do you realize that is a near weekly occurance? Add that the alligator does not stay put. But the time its reported to the time it is investigated it moves away from the site it was seen. Alligators are extremely stealthy, it is not a matter of all hands on deck and finding it everytime one is spotted. They are limited on how many they can remove so they usually go after only the larger ones. Six foot or larger.

It is easy to be arm chair qaurterback here but its has nearly 45 years of experience. It was a freak accident. Very hard to predict after so much experience. Disney "lured" them to the beach ignores they have been doing this popular guest activity for litterally over a decade now. How much experience do you need to going something before you feel that his routine and safe?

Hindsight is always 20-20 but in the report the second reported sighting was at 8:15pm. The attack was near 9pm. I don't claim to know the logistics but maybe there might have been time to get people away from the beach just in case.

 

[SorcererMC]

This has been discussed and discussed. The signs do not need to say it. They just don't. They do now, and that's great for all people who do not know that alligators are in Florida, but they shouldn't be needed.

This was an accident. I don't know what the Disney employees did. I hope they followed protocol. Bottom line still is that a gator in the vicinity does not inherently equal an attack.
There is no way that alligator would have came up onto a beach, in a crowd of people watching a movie, and attacked someone. People can say whatever they want- but that would not happen.
The report said the boy was bent over. A 2 year old, bent over in the water, looks like prey to an alligator. It's horrible, but it was just a tragedy. One that I don't think could have been prevented- not without a lot more warning than what was reported.

I think that the only good that could come from this (and I'm not saying the parents weren't) is for people to start educating themselves on where they are traveling. Just in this thread people have shown that they think "brain eating amobe" only live in seven seas lagoon. They clearly don't understand where alligators are. Maybe it's time, while someone is obviously on the interwebs anyway, to learn more than just what restaurant serves the best milkshakes at WDW.

Lastly, Those of us who don't live in fear, who do understand our surroundings, probably could have had the same thing happen to us..even with that knowledge. It wouldn't mean anyone is to blame. The time of day/night wasn't the best time to walk in the water, but even so-- No one thinks that an alligator will lunge out of the water and snatch you, because the chance is so amazingly minimal. It's why these stories are always shocking.

No one is at fault.

Edited to add- it also doesn't mean that being around, or doing a water sport, in seven seas lagoon is any more dangerous now than it was when people were still allowed to actually swim in it. Really, between this and the Zika threads I just can't wrap my mind around why anyone would live in or visit Florida.

Assessing and managing risk has nothing to do with fault-finding, assigning blame, or living in fear. It is evaluating a set of factors or conditions in order to determine probable outcomes, devising a strategy to mitigate those varying risks and cultivating resilience in the event of an adverse outcome. There is always an 'x' factor of what is unknown or attributable to human error. In terms of strategy to mitigate risk, one focuses on what can be controlled. (Disney does this regularly; consider ride safety, or hazards that would have a negative economic impact on business.)

A gator attack on WDW property is improbable, but not impossible. There were several factors specific to GF (aforementioned) that contributed to this incident, which we now know from the report. Disney misjudged their risk, and is now taking steps like installing different signs, fences, rock/ obstacles, and retraining staff. Disney can't control what an alligator does or doesn't do, but they can be vigilant about having them removed from property on a timely basis and inform guests of any present danger.

I hope this clarifies my earlier post.

A non-Disney example

Spoiler

Suppose that I commute to work 1 hour every weekday on the highway. Every time I get on the highway, I'm risking a car accident. So I take steps to ensure my safety - I wear my seat belt, I observe the speed limit and don't drive recklessly, I maintain my car, I check weather, traffic, and road conditions, etc. I may have a history of several years without accidents, but every day anew I am still making a judgment call and taking steps to prevent an accident from happening. I can't control what another driver does, I can control how I handle my own vehicle and how I respond to other drivers.

 

[The Mom]

The "brain eating bacteria" doesn't just stay in one place indefinitely. It comes and goes, and could happen anywhere that there is warm water. 99.999% of the time it is unknown until someone does from it. No one, not even Disney, tests water for it. If you want to be 100% safe then only swim in pools or the ocean. Then again, there's plenty of other things in the ocean, so...stick to pools

The lagoon is/was still enjoyed. It's why myself and millions of other people will pay stupid prices to have a room facing it, and hang out on the beach in front of it.

Disney hasn't created an environment that is any different than any man made place in Florida. There are cities built on top of the Everglades. People do live in them. There are lots of alligators around. Most never get attacked by one. There is no debate because that it the truth.

I just have to point out facts. It's easy to sensationalize, but if you lived in Florida, or if you travel there often and took a moment to learn about it, you would realize that these claims are just not true. At the very least, again- not really any different than most of the state.

Just a point of information - "brain eating amoeba" can be found in ANY stagnant water that gets warm enough. It has been found in lakes in North Carolina, and even ponds/small lakes further north. It's definitely found in ponds and lakes in Texas. So if you are staying near a pond, and there has been a period of higher than average temperatures - watch out.

 

[21stamps]

Assessing and managing risk has nothing to do with fault-finding, assigning blame, or living in fear. It is evaluating a set of factors or conditions in order to determine probable outcomes, devising a strategy to mitigate those varying risks and cultivating resilience in the event of an adverse outcome. There is always an 'x' factor of what is unknown or attributable to human error. In terms of strategy to mitigate risk, one focuses on what can be controlled. (Disney does this regularly; consider ride safety, or hazards that would have a negative economic impact on business.)

A gator attack on WDW property is improbable, but not impossible. There were several factors specific to GF (aforementioned) that contributed to this incident, which we now know from the report. Disney misjudged their risk, and is now taking steps like installing different signs, fences, rock/ obstacles, and retraining staff. Disney can't control what an alligator does or doesn't do, but they can be vigilant about having them removed from property on a timely basis and inform guests of any present danger.

I hope this clarifies my earlier post.

A non-Disney example

Spoiler

Suppose that I commute to work 1 hour every weekday on the highway. Every time I get on the highway, I'm risking a car accident. So I take steps to ensure my safety - I wear my seat belt, I observe the speed limit and don't drive recklessly, I maintain my car, I check weather, traffic, and road conditions, etc. I may have a history of several years without accidents, but every day anew I am still making a judgment call and taking steps to prevent an accident from happening. I can't control what another driver does, I can control how I handle my own vehicle and how I respond to other drivers.

I don't want to go in circles like the first alligator thread did. I just don't understand why people can't accept that animal attacks CAN happen. It doesn't mean they will happen. It doesn't mean a property owner is negligent. It means we are dealing with a creature who doesn't care about signs or laws or anything else. A creature who you can have teams of people looking out for, and reporting accordingly. But the creatures move. They rarely sit in one spot waiting to be discovered.

The fact that a gator was spotted in the area did not make the beach dangerous. They are always around, and they rarely will bother anyone. A young child was bent over in the water at dusk. An alligator "shouldn't" have attacked but it was that one in 2.2 million chance that actually happened at that exact time.

It is FLORIDA.
Wildlife attacks will happen, probably not in the same place twice, and probably not to you, or me, or our friends, or family, or anyone that we know..because they are RARE.
Do you guys honestly think that this was the first large gator on WDW property? Or that a beach on Seven Seas Lagoon is anymore dangerous than Bay Lake? Man made is irrelevant. There has always been gators. 1 attack out of millions upon millions of visitors isn't cause for this kind of blame game.

Take comfort in the fact that Disney has now gone to extreme measure to comfort all of the people who they know have the irrational mindset of thinking that one attack will equal more. Solely because these people can't just accept the situation for what it is- horrible isolated tragedy. It's the society we live in now.
Next up- ban people from water anywhere in Florida. Build partitions to keep them at a "safe" distance. That is where this mindset will eventually lead us, and it frightens me more than an alligator ever will.