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Wait Lines for New Gondolas

REG Glenn

Member
Original Poster
An observation for a select few who demean.

Its sad how the anonymity of sites like this allow posters to be rude and uncivil. Truth to some lies in the eyes of the beholder. There are no shades of gray, just the color they see. We are all Disney fans or we wouldn’t be on this site and differing opinions are great. But the world in which we live tells us to make fun and belittle those with whom we don’t agree. I bet the snide comments wouldn’t happen at a meet and greet where total strangers would converse face to face. Its funny how hiding behind a computer screen makes people smarter.

Hey, I have an idea. Try being kind and full of grace when answering someone with a differing thought.

Okay, go ahead and roast me for my idiotic opinions.
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
Assuming 746 watts/hp, a motor efficiency of say 93% and running the gondola about 18 hours per day then it would be about $1,375 a day assuming about 10 cents per Kwh for electricity. No clue how many buses they will be able to take out of commission when the gondolas start up but if you assume the buses spend half their time standing to load or unload, which would burn about .8 gallons per hour so assume same 18 hours per day and that's 9 hours at .8 gallons... then the time they are running they are getting maybe an average of 30 mph when moving so 30 times 9 or 270 miles per day, at a burn rate of about 4 miles per gallon and your using 67.5 to travel plus 7.2 idling assume 3.75/gallon for diesel and your spending $280 / bus in fuel... so you need to knock out at least 5 buses per gondola motor used to break even on fuel costs.

Then the question is how many motors will the entire system use... and how many buses will be taken out of service when it starts running.

Come on now, your math doesn't include cast power (cp/hr?). If they need two dozen cast members turning the crank to propel the buckets, that's only $240 per hour. The question though, is this enough or do they need more bodies?

JOB CREATORS IN ACTION AGAIN!
 

SirWillow

Well-Known Member
So assum


The old Goldolas at Disney had no windows. Passengers were open to the elements.

Adding windows to the gondolas does not protect the people inside from lightning or make them safe in high winds and thunderstorms.

Edit- I'm not saying that these gondola's aren't safe in those conditions, only that we don't know yet that they are, or that they've done something to make them safe in those conditions. Most other similar systems- including ones with enclosed gondolas- still shut down in the case of lightning.
 

NormC

Well-Known Member
Not educated, just a guess. Do you know the size of the motors required to power a gondola line? How about the electricity used to operate the entry and exit points? How about the energy used to maintain the system? You've made a guess based on one of many factors and don't even have a clue as to the amount of energy used by the single motor you are yammering about. You made a guess, but it wasn't educated.
Wrong, I am not guessing, it is my educated opinion, but you may continue with your argumentative attitude as you have with everyone else on this thread. I have nothing to prove to you. Have a great day. The ignore feature is a wonderful tool.
 
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Storm

Active Member
Adding windows to the gondolas does not protect the people inside from lightning or make them safe in high winds and thunderstorms.

Edit- I'm not saying that these gondola's aren't safe in those conditions, only that we don't know yet that they are, or that they've done something to make them safe in those conditions. Most other similar systems- including ones with enclosed gondolas- still shut down in the case of lightning.
I think it is indeed pretty safe to assume that they'll be shut down while lightning is around as i dont see how you could protect it from lightning , but hey people want to argue anyway
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
Adding windows to the gondolas does not protect the people inside from lightning or make them safe in high winds and thunderstorms.

Edit- I'm not saying that these gondola's aren't safe in those conditions, only that we don't know yet that they are, or that they've done something to make them safe in those conditions. Most other similar systems- including ones with enclosed gondolas- still shut down in the case of lightning.

Doppelmayr built Singapore's which is tropical, not merely subtropical and its been in operation since the 70's.. they dont close from lightning... cyclones yes :)
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
Doppelmayr built Singapore's which is tropical, not merely subtropical and its been in operation since the 70's.. they dont close from lightning... cyclones yes :)
https://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/weather-no-worry-for-gondolas-experts-say/2266113
would seem to indicate that the system Disney is going to use will be shut down for lightning as I don't see how it would be any different from the one they are talking about in this story about a system in Tampa Bay.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
So are the gondola really going to be greener than buses, who knows... but I wouldn't just blindly accept the marketing material from the seller of the gondolas as the truth any more than I would trust a used car salesman telling he a car he was selling was only driven to church by a little old lady.

Well... when you start with a system that is highly efficient (electric motors) vs one that isn’t (ICE)... you have a massive advantage right from the start. Second, you have a singular system that replaces many vehicles. Third, you have a system that has very little “waste” in that the gondola system doesn’t run when it’s not doing work moving people. Contrast that with bus systems that has a significant waste in that buses have long periods of running while load, unload, and inefficient movement (traffic, stops, road path verse direct line of sight). Lastly, buses also suffer from the intrinsic problem that most of the routes are very one sided demand... meaning you have lots of empty or near empty bus runs as buses cycle to their next pickup.... where as a gondola system doesn’t make extra runs for returns.

So right off the bat, the gondola system is way more efficient in its movement... and it’s working from a higher efficient power source. While buses have the advantage you can scale wayyy down, you have to consider the case that Disney does need capacity and a large number of buses per route.

The direct drive electric system has a hell of a head start.... especially by just consolidating the number of systems in the solution.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
Well... when you start with a system that is highly efficient (electric motors) vs one that isn’t (ICE)... you have a massive advantage right from the start. Second, you have a singular system that replaces many vehicles. Third, you have a system that has very little “waste” in that the gondola system doesn’t run when it’s not doing work moving people. Contrast that with bus systems that has a significant waste in that buses have long periods of running while load, unload, and inefficient movement (traffic, stops, road path verse direct line of sight). Lastly, buses also suffer from the intrinsic problem that most of the routes are very one sided demand... meaning you have lots of empty or near empty bus runs as buses cycle to their next pickup.... where as a gondola system doesn’t make extra runs for returns.

So right off the bat, the gondola system is way more efficient in its movement... and it’s working from a higher efficient power source. While buses have the advantage you can scale wayyy down, you have to consider the case that Disney does need capacity and a large number of buses per route.

The direct drive electric system has a hell of a head start.... especially by just consolidating the number of systems in the solution.
Everything you said is true... but the amount of energy that will be used and the pollution that is generated producing that electricity is still unknown.

When the system is running, how many buses will be eliminated? That is an unknown, it is possible Disney will only eliminate a handful of buses. I don't know how many buses they currently have running from those hotels to EPCOT or Studios and since those are the only parks they will be serving then you would still have all the buses running from those parks to MK and AK... And if the gondola system has to shut down when there is lightning in the area you would still have to be able to pull up buses when storms hit or people would just be kept from the 2 parks which would cause all sorts of complaints. It is entirely possible that once the gondolas go into service that the total pollution generated by Disney will be greater than it is now simply because they don't eliminate enough buses.
 

SirWillow

Well-Known Member
Doppelmayr built Singapore's which is tropical, not merely subtropical and its been in operation since the 70's.. they dont close from lightning... cyclones yes :)
https://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/weather-no-worry-for-gondolas-experts-say/2266113
would seem to indicate that the system Disney is going to use will be shut down for lightning as I don't see how it would be any different from the one they are talking about in this story about a system in Tampa Bay.

This is the telling quote from the article listed for me:
"There are always ways to design it to run in high winds," said Oswald Graber, a consulting engineer who has built gondola systems across the world. "You cannot run a gondola in a lightning storm is the problem, you would have to shut down, but that is typically not for long."

I don't know how much Singapore runs their system in lightning storms- or even how often they get them- but it seems that if an engineer who has built them all over the world says they can't run in lightning, then that's a much better answer for me than all of us who like to think we know what we're talking about (and I very much include myself in that. lol)
 

Driver

Well-Known Member
@Driver How many buses run from Pop to Epcot, Pop to DHS, AoA to Epcot and DHS, CBR to Epcot and DHS in a single day?
Most bus routes are what we call " random dispatch " so that may be influenced by demand. We also have ( in some cases ) " dedicated runs" or " paddle runs". To tell you a fixed number p/ day would be like being able to pick the next winning lottery ticket. At best you could calculate an average. Again because attendance at the resort is what drives the numbers up or down. At the end of the day management does get readouts. Which is how the resorts are charged for bus service. Hope this helps🤓
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Everything you said is true... but the amount of energy that will be used and the pollution that is generated producing that electricity is still unknown.

When the system is running, how many buses will be eliminated? That is an unknown, it is possible Disney will only eliminate a handful of buses. I don't know how many buses they currently have running from those hotels to EPCOT or Studios and since those are the only parks they will be serving then you would still have all the buses running from those parks to MK and AK... And if the gondola system has to shut down when there is lightning in the area you would still have to be able to pull up buses when storms hit or people would just be kept from the 2 parks which would cause all sorts of complaints. It is entirely possible that once the gondolas go into service that the total pollution generated by Disney will be greater than it is now simply because they don't eliminate enough buses.

Well... since you liked doing round estimates before... you can ballpark what the minimum number of buses are needed for a route by estimating their cycle time, load, and unload. Without even running the numbers, I’d bet you’d find a single route that takes 10mins on the road would take at least 3 buses to maintain a 15-20min cycle. Then look at how many routes are impacted... and you at least have a minimum impact... that would likely only go up when demand increases.

But like I outlined above... the gondola system has several huge advantages up front when it comes to efficiencies of movement. And the one big take away I had from my nuclear engineering class was.... you can radically simplify your analysis when you simply throw out the portions of the equation that never have a chance of being materially significant. Now in that context, we were talking about how things that were huge orders of magnitude different... there was no reason to calculate the little guy... but the same philosophy applies here. When something has huge multipliers as a head start... it is going to take a huge disparity for the other side to catch up.

And we already know that ICE is a very inefficient form of combustion and diesel is not a really clean burning fuel to start with.... compared to bulk generated electricity that goes through very efficient motors. Then start to think about all the energy, time, labor, etc spent maintaining many vehicles verse a consolidated system, etc. it’s a tall hill for the buses to climb..

As for not reducing bus counts... Disney isn’t going to run more buses than it needs on those other existing routes. So excess supply will simply be cut. And for weather closures, Disney already has a system for elastic demand... maybe they simply add a tad more capacity to that pool (which would not be the same as a full time route)... or they simply accept that wait times will exceed the norm in those situations.

Plus, remember that weather is something that can be forecasted... even if not perfect.
 

Frontierland's Finest

Active Member
I post this a few pages back and got no response, but does anyone know what the operating hours are going to be? Right now I'm going of the assumption that it will be similar to the monorail hours.
 

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