Rumor Version of MaxPass coming to WDW in May?

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I agree to an extent -- I don't think it's a great benefit when the window is only 30 minutes; there are probably going to be a lot of guests who simply can't get there in time to take advantage of it do to bus schedules, etc.

With that said, it is a giant disincentive to staying off-site for anyone interested in rope-dropping. It will be impossible to do.

It’s size...3 of the 4 parks are large enough that 30 minutes doesn’t cover enough ground.

Its not an Olympic sprint.

 

[dav23]

MaxPass works beautifully at Disneyland. We used to use it every time we went before the pandemic. We’d end the day with more fast passes then we could use and made the whole experience worth the extra price tag. While I know it would need to be tweaked, I’d love for them to bring that system to WDW.

 

[kong1802]

30 minutes is meaningless.

This is a PR ploy for high cost onsite hotels

It’s not meaningless if you’re offsite and when you get there there’s already 5000 people in line for Flight of Passage.

I think for MK it can be meaningless, as there are enough headliners to divert from 7DMT to make it not so bad.

At AK, though, I don't think anyone goes for any ride except for FOP, and that can be a problem.

But, people don't wake up early, so maybe its much to do about nothing?

It's why I'm fascinated to see how it actually plays out, and we really won't know for some time.

When Tron opens, I would have to imagine that people who don't want to pay and can't get a FP or won't pay for one, will spring for onsite and mob the opening. In that scenario, off site is forced into either a paid option or right before closing, no more rope drop as an option.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It’s not meaningless if you’re offsite and when you get there there’s already 5000 people in line for Flight of Passage.

So you wait an hour for one ride and you dump out into the park at 9:45 and wait for all the others longer than you would if you had hit two right off the bat?

30 minutes just won’t make much of a
Dent.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I think for MK it can be meaningless, as there are enough headliners to divert from 7DMT to make it not so bad.

At AK, though, I don't think anyone goes for any ride except for FOP, and that can be a problem.

But, people don't wake up early, so maybe its much to do about nothing?

It's why I'm fascinated to see how it actually plays out, and we really won't know for some time.

When Tron opens, I would have to imagine that people who don't want to pay and can't get a FP or won't pay for one, will spring for onsite and mob the opening. In that scenario, off site is forced into either a paid option or right before closing, no more rope drop as an option.

Rope drop and FastPass really go hand-in-hand. I used to make a list of the rides I didn't want to wait standby for and pretend that I got 4 FastPass selections per day, the three real ones plus rope drop. We never went to the 1-hour EMH park because it got too crowded. With a 30 minute head start (and imagining for a second that the "old" FP+ returned), I'd start planning as if I got an additional no-wait ride per day, so 5 total.

So you wait an hour for one ride and you dump out into the park at 9:45 and wait for all the others longer than you would if you had hit two right off the bat?

30 minutes just won’t make much of a
Dent.

Who waits an hour for a rope drop ride?

 

[UNCgolf]

You can't have it both ways. It can't be an insignificant benefit for resort guests AND a significant hinderance for non-resort guests.

Sure it can, under these specific circumstances.

First of all, it's limited to people that are interested in rope-dropping in the first place -- for people who don't care about rope-dropping, it's not a benefit to them at all and the loss of night time extra hours is a significant loss. They've lost a benefit and gained nothing.

More importantly, though, the issue is the time window. For the subset of people who are interested in rope-dropping, staying off-site is now a serious problem, and thus there's a disincentive. They don't even have the option of rope-dropping. However, because the time window is so short, some of the people who are staying on-site are inevitably going to miss out on part of the window, and if you're not there right at opening you're likely gaining very little benefit at all. If the time period was longer, there would be more leeway.

So for the people who actually want to rope-drop, it's a disincentive to stay off-site because they've lost the option entirely. But because of the short window, many people who are staying on-site (and want to rope drop) are still going to struggle to take advantage of it unless Disney makes serious changes to their transportation.

It's a bit like saying if you go to A, you will not get food. If you go to B, you might get food but there's no guarantee. If you're hungry, B is obviously a better option, but it's not an ideal one. It's less that B is actually offering a significant benefit and more that it's the only choice. Extending the time from 30 minutes to an hour would make a huge difference.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

So for the people who actually want to rope-drop, it's a disincentive to stay off-site because they've lost the option entirely. But because of the short window, many people who are staying on-site (and want to rope drop) are still going to struggle to take advantage of it unless Disney makes serious changes to their transportation.

I'm sorry, that's such a BS complaint. I've never had any trouble whatsoever getting to a park a full hour before rope drop, whether it was EMH or otherwise. Now maybe there are some temporary issues due to COVID, but anyone who wants to rope drop has the ability to do so as long as they get their butts out of bed on time.

Your analysis also ignores the fact that EMH at a single park draws disproportionate crowds to THAT particular park. So you think you're getting a benefit from 8 to 9, but then you're dealing with worse-than-normal crowds from 9 to close. Now that the benefit is at every park every day, you're not going to have to pay the price of worse-than-normal crowds for the rest of the day to take advantage of it.

 

[havoc315]

The flaw in your math is fastpass surges...you’re not in “2 lines at once”...they take the standby line if you’re not there and fill seats. If you’re in line at big thunder in the standby...they don’t hold your spot in the fastpass line at splash.

But yes.. that's exactly what happens. If you have a Fastpass for Splash at 1:00 p.m. ... you're in a virtual line waiting your turn for 1:00 p.m. Meanwhile, you're also in the Standby line at Big Thunder Mountain.
So you can get off Big Thunder Mountain at 12:59... and walk right up to Splash, "cutting head" of the people already in the standby line for Splash -- But you're not really cutting ahead. You were already waiting in the Spash line, just virtually waiting. And they will indeed hold my spot in Spash, until 2:00 p.m.

I’m oversimplifying too...but fastpass doesn’t cause the lines...with the exception of fastpass+...where people booked and use fast passes on A,B,C tickets that many would never have used otherwise. That causes a ripple effect across the park. Some rides don’t warrant standby waits of 30 minutes+...they weren’t design to have computer distribution predictions.

Not sure what you're saying -- You say it doesn't cause the lines, and then you say it does cause the 30+ minute standby lines.
In fact, FP+ really makes all standby lines longer, because the majority of the distribution is going to FP.
Let's say you rope drop Magic Kingdom, and you're the 100th person on the standby line for Mine Train. With no FP system, you'd be getting on the ride in just 5 minutes. But because of FP, you may find that they are letting a couple hundred people cut ahead of you, and your waiting 15 minutes instead of 5.

Go back a few years, to the paper FP system, you can really demonstrate this effect. Back in the paper FP days, nobody had fastpasses for the first 40 minutes of the park. IIRC, the earliest fastpasses were timed for 40 minutes after park open. With FP+ system, with FPs being active right from the moment of park open, has caused longer standby lines right from minutes into park open.

 

[nickys]

It's new that its at all 4 parks every morning.

I don't know if that translates to anything measurable, but if it does, gonna suck a tad for locals and off siters (the riff raff).

I like the branding!

@lentesta and his team have done some modelling on this. Len’s summary was fairly succinct: “this is going to suck for those staying offsite”. It equates to between 1 and 2 hours less time waiting in lines.

 

[UNCgolf]

I'm sorry, that's such a BS complaint. I've never had any trouble whatsoever getting to a park a full hour before rope drop, whether it was EMH or otherwise. Now maybe there are some temporary issues due to COVID, but anyone who wants to rope drop has the ability to do so as long as they get their butts out of bed on time.

Your analysis also ignores the fact that EMH at a single park draws disproportionate crowds to THAT particular park. So you think you're getting a benefit from 8 to 9, but then you're dealing with worse-than-normal crowds from 9 to close. Now that the benefit is at every park every day, you're not going to have to pay the price of worse-than-normal crowds for the rest of the day to take advantage of it.

I have no interest in rope-drop, so I don't have personal experience, but multiple people on this very site have complained about struggling to make it to rope-drop because of Disney buses not getting them there in time. The buses don't even run an hour before park opening, do they? I imagine it's not quite as easy as you're making it sound for people who rely on Disney transport, but again, I don't have personal experience. I suppose people could just get Uber/Lyft every day to make sure it's not an issue, but then you're looking at an added expense which would also lessen the benefit.

Your second point might be true. I'm not sure it will have as large an impact as you're suggesting -- mainly because the Magic Kingdom is likely going to be even busier on a daily basis than it was before without EMH pushing people to other parks on certain days -- but it could be helpful.

 

[nickys]

I have no interest in rope-drop, so I don't have personal experience, but multiple people on this very site have complained about struggling to make it to rope-drop because of Disney buses not getting them there in time. The buses don't even run an hour before park opening, do they? I imagine it's not quite as easy as you're making it sound for people who rely on Disney transport, but again, I don't have personal experience. I suppose people could just get Uber/Lyft every day to make sure it's not an issue, but then you're looking at an added expense which would also lessen the benefit.

Your second point might be true. I'm not sure it will have as large an impact as you're suggesting -- mainly because the Magic Kingdom is likely going to be even busier on a daily basis than it was before without EMH pushing people to other parks on certain days -- but it could be helpful.

Buses start running an hour before the parks open. In normal times, pre-Covid that meant it was possible to make rope drop using the buses. With the reduced capacity on the buses now plus the capacity of the parks ramping up since the Summer it does make it more difficult for some. But others have found it’s still possible, assuming you’re prepared to be at the bus stop an hour or more before the first bus.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I have no interest in rope-drop, so I don't have personal experience, but multiple people on this very site have complained about struggling to make it to rope-drop because of Disney buses not getting them there in time.

I won't attack individual posters, but those individuals tend to roll out of bed at 8:15 and then complain that they can't get to rope drop.

Buses start running an hour before the parks open.

That's the stated time. More often than not, buses start running quite a bit before that.

 

[UNCgolf]

The WDW website actually says they start running 45 minutes prior to park opening rather than 60 (and that they run for an hour after closing time), but I have no trouble believing they often run earlier than that.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But standby guests and FastPass guests are the same people. Yeah, maybe you have to wait longer in the Space Mountain standby line but you get to ride Big Thunder with no wait, so you're no worse off.

You’re worse off because the park is more crowded and the positive sentiment from that shorter wait is used to push down attractions per guest per hour.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

You’re worse off because the park is more crowded and the positive sentiment from that shorter wait is used to push down attractions per guest per hour.

Total attractions per guest per hour increases because more people are riding lower-demand rides than they otherwise would have. The park is not more crowded, it is equally crowded.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

But yes.. that's exactly what happens. If you have a Fastpass for Splash at 1:00 p.m. ... you're in a virtual line waiting your turn for 1:00 p.m. Meanwhile, you're also in the Standby line at Big Thunder Mountain.
So you can get off Big Thunder Mountain at 12:59... and walk right up to Splash, "cutting head" of the people already in the standby line for Splash -- But you're not really cutting ahead. You were already waiting in the Spash line, just virtually waiting. And they will indeed hold my spot in Spash, until 2:00 p.m.




Not sure what you're saying -- You say it doesn't cause the lines, and then you say it does cause the 30+ minute standby lines.
In fact, FP+ really makes all standby lines longer, because the majority of the distribution is going to FP.
Let's say you rope drop Magic Kingdom, and you're the 100th person on the standby line for Mine Train. With no FP system, you'd be getting on the ride in just 5 minutes. But because of FP, you may find that they are letting a couple hundred people cut ahead of you, and your waiting 15 minutes instead of 5.

Go back a few years, to the paper FP system, you can really demonstrate this effect. Back in the paper FP days, nobody had fastpasses for the first 40 minutes of the park. IIRC, the earliest fastpasses were timed for 40 minutes after park open. With FP+ system, with FPs being active right from the moment of park open, has caused longer standby lines right from minutes into park open.

Fastpass acts like a virtual queue, but it adjusts if you don’t show up. It’s a traffic control system. It’s not “a place in line” as it’s being presented.

My point on the standby lines on unpopular attractions is that they forced people into them by creating a “i better book something” scenario that created “demand” where there wouldn’t be.

So in that regard you can say that fastpass “created” lines.

But the real issue is this: they haven’t added much ride capacity since fastpass was created and the crowds are 20-25% larger. If you want to to know why there are longer lines...start there. There’s no more seats to put the butts in.

The issue I described with “fear bookings” makes it worse...but didn’t create the problem.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

You’re worse off because the park is more crowded and the positive sentiment from that shorter wait is used to push down attractions per guest per hour.

All of this “deep dive” analytics stuff talking about “double lines” and “virtual queues” can stop...because this is the thing.

I forgot to mention this earlier...but the existence of “fast pass tiering” was an admission by parks from day one that they don’t have enough capacity to meet the demand of their crowds. It’s been 8 years...FYI. They still had it when the system flatlined last spring.

 

[TrojanUSC]

Little off topic but still on topic. Didn’t an insider say Disney Genie was done?

Genie was announced as an idea before it was ever fully fleshed out internally. Would be shocked if it still comes to fruition any more than Hyperion Wharf or the Main Street theater.

 

[havoc315]

Fastpass acts like a virtual queue, but it adjusts if you don’t show up. It’s a traffic control system. It’s not “a place in line” as it’s being presented.

My point on the standby lines on unpopular attractions is that they forced people into them by creating a “i better book something” scenario that created “demand” where there wouldn’t be.

So in that regard you can say that fastpass “created” lines.

But the real issue is this: they haven’t added much ride capacity since fastpass was created and the crowds are 20-25% larger. If you want to to know why there are longer lines...start there. There’s no more seats to put the butts in.

The issue I described with “fear bookings” makes it worse...but didn’t create the problem.

I agree that increased attendance has certainly increased the standby lines.
But there is also no question that Fastpass also increased the standby lines.

Here is an analysis from when they introduced FP+ :

How FastPass+ Is Affecting Your Wait In Line – An Update | TouringPlans.com Blog

FASTPASS vs. FastPass+ Back in early February we took at look at How FastPass+ Is Affecting Your Wait In Line At Disney

touringplans.com

You seen rides that went from not having any FP, to suddenly having FP+, saw the biggest increase in wait times. (some rides saw a reduction -- but they already had FP, even before FP+)

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I agree that increased attendance has certainly increased the standby lines.
But there is also no question that Fastpass also increased the standby lines.

Here is an analysis from when they introduced FP+ :

How FastPass+ Is Affecting Your Wait In Line – An Update | TouringPlans.com Blog

FASTPASS vs. FastPass+ Back in early February we took at look at How FastPass+ Is Affecting Your Wait In Line At Disney

touringplans.com

You seen rides that went from not having any FP, to suddenly having FP+, saw the biggest increase in wait times. (some rides saw a reduction -- but they already had FP, even before FP+)

Fastpass reduced the standby lines

Fastpass+ made the standby lines not practical/obselete. By design.

The prebooked system didn’t want you to go in the regular lines.
At all. That’s why Disney has deemed the system a failure. You were supposed to be happy with your 3 and then get to spending.

The original (which maxpass is the digital successor to) was a much better system. It provided flow throw the E-tickets and then the rest of the things operated as they always had.

The problem is that extra 25% of attendance. There’s no where to put them when your parks averaged 1 new attraction every 5 years...if you’re lucky. That’s Bob.

And we’ve passed go to collect our $200 again.