Rumor Version of MaxPass coming to WDW in May?

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I understand your point, but I think it’s actually the opposite:
Fastpass effectively reduces capacity by letting people be in 2 lines at once.

Full capacity runs more efficiently WITHOUT fastpass. The entire FP+ system never was able to achieve its objectives.

Take Epcot or DHS in early 2020 pre-closure: every single significant attraction was a Tier 1 fastpass.
So going full capacity without FPs, really just takes 1 real FP away from the guest, while making standby lines shorter park-wide.

When fastpass was introduced, the gateclicks were about 40,000,000 annually. Now there’s 55,000,000...and they have added little if any net ride capacity in the years since.

Fastpass started with a simple premise: reduce waits to allow spending.

It’s a Crowd flow/distribution system now...they hold the tide back with it.

Numbers are what they are.

 

[PirateFrank]

I understand your point, but I think it’s actually the opposite:
Fastpass effectively reduces capacity by letting people be in 2 lines at once.

Full capacity runs more efficiently WITHOUT fastpass. The entire FP+ system never was able to achieve its objectives.

Take Epcot or DHS in early 2020 pre-closure: every single significant attraction was a Tier 1 fastpass.
So going full capacity without FPs, really just takes 1 real FP away from the guest, while making standby lines shorter park-wide.

Well stated!

The 2-line system really pushed standby waits higher and higher whenever there were more fastpasses distributed than the attraction could handle - and this happened ALOT more in recent years.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

FastPass has no net impact on rides that normally run at capacity. An attraction that always runs full handles the same number of people per hour regardless of whether it's pulling from one line or two.

FastPass has a net positive impact on rides that would run below capacity without FastPass, because it steers guests towards those rides. It has a net favorable impact on overall wait times (i.e. increased standby wait times minus decreased FastPass wait times).

Correct. Throughput are set numbers...they never changed with fastpass queues. Just where the riders came from.

The problem is net attendance compared to the hourly capacities. In a way...fastpass Deters people from riding to ease the crunch. Long standby lines that don’t move have been known for almost 10 years

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Well stated!

The 2-line system really pushed standby waits higher and higher whenever there were more fastpasses distributed than the attraction could handle - and this happened ALOT more in recent years.

Fastpass doesn’t change how many people ride...it just distributes them.

 

[nickys]

Given the criteria that Martin first suggested might be used I think the DLP system is the one that best fits. Still allows for old style free FP on the day, with tiered pre-paid options including bundles of rides, unlimited and also once per ride per day.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Let’s wait and see.

...you’re such a cad/tease? Am I gonna have to buy you dinner and dessert first?

 

[PirateFrank]

Fastpass doesn’t change how many people ride...it just distributes them.

I never said it did. My contention with FP+ has always been with its impact on standby wait times. There is no denying that a fully saturated fastpass queue has a significant upward impact on the corresponding standby queue.

Lets also not forget that WDW has modularized its attraction capacity wherever it can, to employ surge staffing. So capacity is no longer a static number.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Given the criteria that Martin first suggested might be used I think the DLP system is the one that best fits. Still allows for old style free FP on the day, with tiered pre-paid options including unlimited and also once per ride per day.

I think that’s possible. Unless they decide to monetize it where it discourages mass consumption and re-emphasizes the standby queues?

It’s always a balance...you want to sell it - but not to everyone - and as you push the price point there is a steep drop off in sales.

The other thing...and there’s no going around this - is that they Monetize lines with really expensive upsells now.

A fastpass sold gets you into a line. There’s no more money to be gleaned. “After house magic” gets you into the stores and food booths also

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I never said it did. My contention with FP+ has always been with its impact on standby wait times. There is no denying that a fully saturated fastpass queue has a significant upward impact on the corresponding standby queue.

Lets also not forget that WDW has modularized its attraction capacity wherever it can, to employ surge staffing. So capacity is no longer a static number.

But standby guests and FastPass guests are the same people. Yeah, maybe you have to wait longer in the Space Mountain standby line but you get to ride Big Thunder with no wait, so you're no worse off.

 

[kong1802]

But standby guests and FastPass guests are the same people. Yeah, maybe you have to wait longer in the Space Mountain standby line but you get to ride Big Thunder with no wait, so you're no worse off.

Until BtMRR goes down and everyone for 3 hours that had FP's now have anytime FP's that ruin the day for everyone else...

I know, different issue entirely, but that is an unintended consequence of FP+ that I despise...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I never said it did. My contention with FP+ has always been with its impact on standby wait times. There is no denying that a fully saturated fastpass queue has a significant upward impact on the corresponding standby queue.

Lets also not forget that WDW has modularized its attraction capacity wherever it can, to employ surge staffing. So capacity is no longer a static number.

Ride capacity...not park capacity. Ride capacity at full operation is static. Count the doombuggies

Ride capacity is set unless they do stupid things like run one side of space mountain.

I’m not following your point here - though that’s my fault.

 

[havoc315]

FastPass has no net impact on rides that normally run at capacity. An attraction that always runs full handles the same number of people per hour regardless of whether it's pulling from one line or two.

FastPass has a net positive impact on rides that would run below capacity without FastPass, because it steers guests towards those rides. It has a net favorable impact on overall wait times (i.e. increased standby wait times minus decreased FastPass wait times).

I'd ask @lentesta to weigh in on the net effect, as he has crunched the numbers better than I ever could.

But while a particular attraction can handle the same number of people regardless of fastpass -- the park overall can handle fewer people because of fastpass. Oversimplifying a bit- every person counts twice -- since they are on 2 lines at the same time.
Imagine the whole park is just 2 rides -- 200 guests come in to the park. With no FP, the people divide in half... you get 2 lines with 100 people each. And imagine the park is only open for 1 hour, imagine the ride can do 100 riders per hour -- So the 100 people on line, get to ride within an hour. They only got to do 1 ride. Now add FP -- THe guests are actually on both lines at once! But... if you now have 200 people in both lines (virtual in 1 line, really in the other line)... and the rides can only get through 100 people per hour, and the park is only open for 1 hour.... The park can no longer handle 200 people.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I'd ask @lentesta to weigh in on the net effect, as he has crunched the numbers better than I ever could.

But while a particular attraction can handle the same number of people regardless of fastpass -- the park overall can handle fewer people because of fastpass. Oversimplifying a bit- every person counts twice -- since they are on 2 lines at the same time.
Imagine the whole park is just 2 rides -- 200 guests come in to the park. With no FP, the people divide in half... you get 2 lines with 100 people each. And imagine the park is only open for 1 hour, imagine the ride can do 100 riders per hour -- So the 100 people on line, get to ride within an hour. They only got to do 1 ride. Now add FP -- THe guests are actually on both lines at once! But... if you now have 200 people in both lines (virtual in 1 line, really in the other line)... and the rides can only get through 100 people per hour, and the park is only open for 1 hour.... The park can no longer handle 200 people.

The flaw in your math is fastpass surges...you’re not in “2 lines at once”...they take the standby line if you’re not there and fill seats. If you’re in line at big thunder in the standby...they don’t hold your spot in the fastpass line at splash.

I’m oversimplifying too...but fastpass doesn’t cause the lines...with the exception of fastpass+...where people booked and use fast passes on A,B,C tickets that many would never have used otherwise. That causes a ripple effect across the park. Some rides don’t warrant standby waits of 30 minutes+...they weren’t design to have computer distribution predictions.

My experience is people use their prebooked
Fastpass no matter what due to fear that they can’t get on others stuff.

And in a place like Epcot...how much does that suck?
We pay for it...ridiculous.

 

[nickys]

I think that’s possible. Unless they decide to monetize it where it discourages mass consumption and re-emphasizes the standby queues?

It’s always a balance...you want to sell it - but not to everyone - and as you push the price point there is a steep drop off in sales.

The other thing...and there’s no going around this - is that they Monetize lines with really expensive upsells now.

A fastpass sold gets you into a line. There’s no more money to be gleaned. “After house magic” gets you into the stores and food booths also

DLP simply limits the total number sold.

I think there are effectively 6 paid options:

“family rides” - once per ride or unlimited
“thrill rides” - once per ride or unlimited
all rides - once per ride or unlimited

And then the free option - go to ride, get paper FP, get another either after you ride or after 90 minutes, whichever is soonest. WDW can use the MDE app rather than paper.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

Bring the pre-FP+ queue lines back!! I loved Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion before the stewed them up. Plus they were walk ons

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

DLP simply limits the total number sold.

I think there are effectively 6 paid options:

“family rides” - once per ride or unlimited
“thrill rides” - once per ride or unlimited
all rides - once per ride or unlimited

And then the free option - go to ride, get paper FP, get another either after you ride or after 90 minutes, whichever is soonest. Only WDW can use the MDE app rather than paper.

Thanks for the info...I haven’t been since they implemented their system. Have used Disneyland’s though.

Problem with a limit in Orlando is this: you tell people that they can’t buy an upgrade on the busiest days...guest services ends up looking like this:

 

[PirateFrank]

But standby guests and FastPass guests are the same people. Yeah, maybe you have to wait longer in the Space Mountain standby line but you get to ride Big Thunder with no wait, so you're no worse off.

This issue is far more subtle than what you're describing. The suggestion that fastpass has no impact on overall wait times ignores the fact that there is an upper limit that park guests will be willing to absorb on an attraction before walking to another attraction to see if the other attraction has a better wait time. I think that mythical 'upper limit' varies depending on several intangible factors, including time of day, temperature, how congested the park feels, impending weather, etc.

So a fastpass that abnormally pushes a standby wait past that 'upper limit' will have an immediate spill over factor to other attractions. Considering the fact that there are attractions that should have never had fastpass queues installed on them...it creates a situation where every attraction is abnormally jammed. Thats no good for everyone.

Ride capacity...not park capacity. Ride capacity at full operation is static. Count the doombuggies

Ride capacity is set unless they do stupid things like run one side of space mountain.

I’m not following your point here - though that’s my fault.

Thats why I said "wherever it can"...Im not going to dig for the article, because I dont think this is a contentious issue - but back around Jan of2019 (when I saw it) WDW was playing with limiting attraction capacity to reduce staffing. So running one half of Pirates was one of the results. So was limiting the number of boats being sent out on LWTL...

 

[homerdance]

This is probably going to be a hugely unpopular opinion.....

...but I *strongly* welcome the idea of a premium/paid fastpass (maxpass) system. We've all debated the drawbacks of FP+ ad nauseam...I've been of the opinion that the system has been an abject failure for several years. The end result of FP+ was that every park, every attraction, suffered from ghastly wait times. Even the attractions that you would have otherwise jumped on to wait out another fastpass return time were stuffed. At some point following the implementation of FP+, WDW visits became extremely frustrating - first because I had to plan out my days 2 months prior, and second, because once I got in the parks and used up the 3 fastpasses, the rest of the day was spent standing on abnormally large queues. To me, it's not a value-added system if everyone's using it.

Whacking the whole system and moving to a system where you charge a flat or incremental fee for access to FP queues would be something I would welcome with open arms....the express pass system at Universal is worth its weight in gold, especially during busy times of the year. If I have to drop extra cash to get a similar benefit at WDW - I'll happily absorb that in the cost of my WDW trip.

...ok, flame away!

They already have this, they are called VIP tours.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Thats why I said "wherever it can"...Im not going to dig for the article, because I dont think this is a contentious issue - but back around Jan of2019 (when I saw it) WDW was playing with limiting attraction capacity to reduce staffing. So running one half of Pirates was one of the results. So was limiting the number of boats being sent out on LWTL...

Oh...I don’t dispute that. I have little doubt they have done Frankenstein experiments. It’s win/win for them.

My contention is full ride capacity isn’t enough with fastpass. Hasn’t been for the entire Iger era.

So those type of experiments are moot.
They can’t be implemented.

He inherited a lead and squandered it. That’s his main flaw as a park manager.

Can’t sit on parks for 5/10 years at a clip. It would never have worked. That’s why they just aren’t as good of days as they used to be.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This is probably going to be a hugely unpopular opinion.....

...but I *strongly* welcome the idea of a premium/paid fastpass (maxpass) system. We've all debated the drawbacks of FP+ ad nauseam...I've been of the opinion that the system has been an abject failure for several years. The end result of FP+ was that every park, every attraction, suffered from ghastly wait times. Even the attractions that you would have otherwise jumped on to wait out another fastpass return time were stuffed. At some point following the implementation of FP+, WDW visits became extremely frustrating - first because I had to plan out my days 2 months prior, and second, because once I got in the parks and used up the 3 fastpasses, the rest of the day was spent standing on abnormally large queues. To me, it's not a value-added system if everyone's using it.

Whacking the whole system and moving to a system where you charge a flat or incremental fee for access to FP queues would be something I would welcome with open arms....the express pass system at Universal is worth its weight in gold, especially during busy times of the year. If I have to drop extra cash to get a similar benefit at WDW - I'll happily absorb that in the cost of my WDW trip.

...ok, flame away!

The universal pass is $99/$129 a day...

So that’s a $250-$300 daily ticket.

If you want that...enjoy the parks while you can. They won’t be able to get the masses needed to keep the revenues up and the parks open.

Disney parks are “mass” destinations...not elite ones. DNA