Universal vs. Disney

[JT3000]

Ever notice a Magic Band or two on people at Universal? Until Universal can figure that one out they will always be a number two.

They'll always be number two because they create palpable reasons to visit their parks instead of fancy wrist bands? Is that your final answer?

Jimmy Thick- You could even make a fair argument SDMT brought more people to Florida than DA.

Then why didn't you? Is it because you couldn't? Did you mean others could, just not yourself? Help me understand...

No, Universal ABSOLUTELY needs more, at least on a per-park basis, if people want to make stupid comments like "Universal is winning." Your big selling point is that Universal's best park MIGHT pass WDW's worst park temporarily while that park is half closed for a game-changing expansion. Come on.

When (supposedly) building new attractions necessitates closing half of your park beforehand, it is not an expansion.

 

[Rutt]

I dont know, i think WWOHP was a pretty big expansion. Even if they did replace the lost continent and Jaws.

And Uni will always be number two because I dont think they have anything in their arsenal that could topple the princesses and MK.

 

[JT3000]

I dont know, i think WWOHP was a pretty big expansion. Even if they did replace the lost continent and Jaws

The only reason they can be called expansions is because Forbidden Journey and Hogwarts Express were built on previously unutilized land and added to the attraction count. Otherwise, a replacement is just a replacement.

 

[Rutt]

I have seen more then one magic band on a Universal guest.

Of course why did the WDW guest leave Disney to go to Universal???

Why didnt they just stay at Universal in the first place?

 

[Rutt]

The only reason they can be called expansions is because Forbidden Journey and Hogwarts Express were built on previously unutilized land and added to the attraction count. Otherwise, a replacement is just a replacement.

So if they use the backstage areas at DHS for new theming and rides, would you then agree its an expansion?

 

[Eckert]

I'm just throwing this out there, but if Disney had used that $1 billion that they used to make MDE on the construction/renovation of actual rides and attractions, I think this argument would be a lot more interesting.

I hate to complain about FastPass+, but I'm gonna complain about FastPass+: Yeah I get it, "bla-bla-bla people plan Disney trips months and YEARS in advance", but if it's 8:00AM and the park opens at 9AM, I should be able to get a FastPass for Mine Train on the app. The park isn't open. No one is inside.

 

[mahnamahna101]

So if they use the backstage areas at DHS for new theming and rides, would you then agree its an expansion?

If the current attraction count is increased upon, then yes. If they only do RSR-lite for a Backlot Tour or LMA replacement, then it's not a true expansion.

If the park has the same amount of attractions in 2021, as they do now, it's not expansion. It's really replacement. But if they increase DHS' attraction count by 2-4 by 2021/2022, then yes, they 'expanded'.

Adding new guest areas is technically an expansion, but in terms of attractions, replacing Backlot/LMA/OMD/Animation/Disney Jr/Indy/possibly Muppets/possibly Frozen Sing-a-Long/B&TB/Mermaid/Sounds Dangerous/American Idol makes even 12 new attractions technically not an increase in attraction count. And I doubt we'll get that many. 3 for Star Wars, 5-6 for Pixar, replacements for B&TB, Mermaid and Frozen - that makes 12 'additions'. I know the replacements will be far better than that lineup except Muppets/Indy, but

Kong, FJ, HE, and the Springfield flat ride are all 'expansions' because they didn't replace anything. There was nothing in their place before. The Springfield food court and Transformers weren't expansions, since there was something accessible to guests in that area before.

Same goes for the Doom/Carnage spot. If they put 2 attractions (an E and a C) there, it would technically be an expansion since we went from 1 attraction being there to 2.

 

[mahnamahna101]

I'm just throwing this out there, but if Disney had used that $1 billion that they used to make MDE on the construction/renovation of actual rides and attractions, I think this argument would be a lot more interesting.

I hate to complain about FastPass+, but I'm gonna complain about FastPass+: Yeah I get it, "bla-bla-bla people plan Disney trips months and YEARS in advance", but if it's 8:00AM and the park opens at 9AM, I should be able to get a FastPass for Mine Train on the app. The park isn't open. No one is inside.

They should have expanded Pixar Place and fixed up Imagination/Energy with that $1 billion. Also, expand Soarin's capacity and update the ride film, plus a substantial Test Track overhaul.

If they had done that, DHS and Epcot would be in far better shape than they are. Instead of $2.8 billion, DHS would need $1.5-1.7 billion. And then, the other $1.1-1.3 billion could have be further spread around the resort to make sure every park got at least one new addition for the 50th (Dinoland revamp/Kali expansion/Everest overhaul for AK, Frontierland or Adventureland E + Tomorrowland overhaul for MK, WoL replacement and a new attraction for WS at Epcot)

I know this is just armchair Imagineering, but it really shows you just how much of a waste MM+'s budget really was...

 

[TubaGeek]

Why didnt they just stay at Universal in the first place?

As someone who currently favors Universal, I can see why a vacationer would want to stay at Disney. If you're spending one day at each park of Disney AND Uni, you're gonna have four days of provided transportation instead of two.
Obviously, I feel you get more bang for your buck at Uni's hotels, generally, but for those who are concerned moresoe about convenient transportation and don't want to move halfway through your trip, I'd suggest a Disney hotel.

 

[Tom Morrow]

You pixie dusters can spout out attendance figures all you want - popularity is not synonymous with quality.

For the longest time I rooted for WDW, until about 4 years ago when Universal began going full force with new worthwhile additions, improvements, and a complete 180 with their guest service that now, for the most part, meets or exceeds Disney's. Meanwhile, Disney has mostly stagnated for a decade+ and is only now playing "catch up" to make up for the fact that the parks and resort did not grow with the increased demand. MK received enhancements and improvements, but only in the name of capacity, and it still did not get a true E-ticket that it needs and hasn't gotten since 1992. Epcot is a mess, never more evident than Captain EO coming back again because they couldn't manage or care enough to get a reasonable replacement, and many areas sitting unused - Frozen Norway is not going to fix Epcot's problems, it will only add to them. Yeah, Studios is getting a big makeover, but how many years until we can enjoy it? Seven or more? DAK is constructing Avatarland... which still won't be ready for 2 years... and was announced in 2011.

The WDW resorts are great, but the once great perk of complimentary transportation is now a mess. Everyone I talk to who visits WDW and relies on it's transportation runs into issue after issue. Getting from a resort to a park, or from one park to another, used to be possible in about 45 minutes or less. Now you often need at least double that. The parks themselves no longer have any slow periods which used to last weeks or months. Instead, they are almost constantly very busy with maybe a few slow days sprinkled throughout the year. In addition to the crowds, Fastpass+ promised to more "evenly spread crowd flow and demand" but it has not done that. Rides that previously had a strong Fastpass demand have seen no significant decrease in wait times, while all other attractions that either didn't previously have Fastpass or had it but were not a high demand choice have seen a significant increase across the board.

You can not just enjoy your time at WDW, you have to fight and plan and commando your way through it. As someone living close by with constant exposure I did not want to believe it, but it became more apparent than ever when my family visited recently, seeing how much they had to plan and put up with. You can not simply eat at any restaurant you may want to eat at, you are forced to plan in advance. Thanks to Fastpass+ and advanced Fastpass bookings, you can not ride major attractions with a reasonable wait time that isn't ridiculously artificially inflated by the Fastpass system, you must plan or suffer in a dreadfully slow line.

In short, at WDW you are paying more for less than ever, and enduring more stress and frustrations and required planning than ever.

It is no longer fun. The appeal is gone.

When I go to Universal I can relive that feeling of going to a park, riding multiple rides with manageable wait times in standby lines that actually move, and eat where I want without having to worry about it or plan. That simple fact, plus the level of quality that Universal is putting out, is why Universal is currently the better choice to spend your time and money at.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Ever notice a Magic Band or two on people at Universal? Until Universal can figure that one out they will always be a number two.

Jimmy Thick- You could even make a fair argument SDMT brought more people to Florida than DA.

Yep, people are wearing their Magic Bands because they are showing their support for Disney! Not because it's their ONLY way to get back into their hotel rooms and Disney has convinced them that they need to wear their MaGiCaL wrist band at all times during their vacation no matter what.

Also seeing Magic Bands at Universal is a good sign for Universal because it means people are taking time out of their Disney trip to see Universal, which is the exact opposite of what Disney wants since Disney's entire strategy for years has been focused on finding ways to keep people inside the Disney bubble.

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

I'm picturing Mickey Mouse and Woody Woodpecker starting a fight over which one of their parks is better

Actually if the whole Oswald thing fell through....It would look a little like this...

 

[Tony Perkis]

I dont know, i think WWOHP was a pretty big expansion. Even if they did replace the lost continent and Jaws.

And Uni will always be number two because I dont think they have anything in their arsenal that could topple the princesses and MK.

But....princesses don't interest me. At all. And cornering yourself into that demographic means that anyone with alternative interests will take their business elsewhere.

 

[RandomPrincess]

My kids have been to a Disney park every year they have been alive. Son has done 3 trip and Daughter has done 5. We have honeymooned and vacationed to Disney parks numerous times prior to having kids. During DL's 50th we went to DL 3 Times and WDW once on vacations. We LOVE Disney! But on our next trip my husband will be doing a Run Disney race and we will be visiting Universal and Legoland. We have ZERO plans to go to a Disney Park. We have done everything at WDW numerous times with our kids and we are ready to do a new adventure. This will be our 3 trip to Uni Parks and my kids first true visit (they were 11m and 2 last time). My daughter loves Harry Potter and of course Minion and Superheros are big on the kids list. We will of course be going back to Disney in the future but right now Universal has much more appeal with so many new things to explore.

 

[rioriz]

I get it. Universal is building kewler stuff. I never said that the "Universal is building kewler stuff" argument is invalid. I pointed out that the market share argument is invalid. My "simple economy" example holds true for larger numbers. Disney growing by 2 million guests and universal growing by 1 millions guests would show up in the statistics as universal "gaining market share" because they took 33% of the new entrants into the market, thus pulling their percentage up from the 25% (or whatever it is) they currently have. Do you really think it would be evidence of Universal "beating" Disney if they grew by 1 million guests and Disney grew by 2 million guests?

Also, you're sipping something special if you think Nintendo, which insiders have confirmed to be a kiddie land, is going to have anywhere near the impact that Star Wars is going to have at DHS. I note that you conveniently excluded Star Wars and Pixar from your projections entirely.

A very trusted member just said a major E was going into Frontier land by MK 50th. If so that will throw off any projections. The most visited park in the world will grow substantially

 

[Mike S]

Gonna respond to this in the proper thread.

Disney doesn't need to hype these new projects at this year's D23. A simple announcement with "more details to come in the future" is plenty. You're overestimating how much the "average Joe" cares D23. The average guest rarely knows what's going on at WDW until a new attraction or land is almost ready to open. Yes, I'd love for them to release full details, but it probably won't happen.

I kind of hate that so many discussions devolve into the same old "Uni vs. Disney" debate, but as for your claim that Universal will have "constructed 6-8 E-tickets" in that span...

Until Kong debuts, IOA has received exactly one new e-ticket attraction in the 16 years since it opened.

In the last 10+ years (January 1, 2005 until today), here's a list of every brand new E-ticket attraction that Universal Orlando Resort has built in both parks:

Gringotts
Forbidden Journey
Transformers
Hollywood Rip, Ride, Rockit (for my money a relatively unremarkable coaster, but I'll give it to them as a "thrill ride")

Also noteworthy are Despicable Me and the Simpsons Ride, but they are both essentially a new film experience and re-brand of 25-year-old ride systems and theaters, so I'm therefore reluctant to crown them "new" E-tickets, but I'm open to arguments for both of those. But if you include either of them, then I'd include Star Tours 2.0 as a new E-ticket as well, as it was an even more drastic upgrade of a ride going from 2D to 3D and is a better ride than both of those.

So that's 4 brand new E-tickets for UOR in 10 years, spanning both parks. And if Disney built Rip Ride Rockit they'd be crucified for building a non-themed roller coaster that's out in the open with pavement beneath it. The quality of the other three (FJ, Gringotts, Transformers) is undeniable, even if those 3 e-tickets aren't necessarily everyone's cup of tea.

Hogwarts Express is slightly noteworthy, but it's a train with a video and special effects, not an E-ticket.

Beyond that, I don't think I've missed anything (e-ticket wise), but it's certainly possible.

So what you're suggesting is that somehow Universal is going to open 6 to 8 more e-tickets in the next 6 years, when in the previous 10 they opened 4 (maybe 5 if you really fudge it)? Where do they plan on putting them?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting Disney was active over the last decade in comparison. They clearly weren't, but in that same 10 year time frame, WDW has opened Star Tours 2, Fantasyland Expansion (Little Mermaid, Seven Dwarfs), Expedition Everest, Soarin, and Toy Story Mania. Not sure how many are "true" e-tickets, but either way, Universal "won" the last decade if you were to insist on making that comparison. But people seem to love exaggerating what Universal is doing in terms of "RIDES RIDES RIDES RIDES". They have built a couple of excellent, well-themed lands (Harry Potter 1 and 2), but those two lands are relatively small and only consist of a total of 3 new attractions across those 2 lands (Forbidden J, Hogwarts Exp, Gringotts, while losing Jaws and a portion of the Lost Continent). And they've done a good job of "resort" expansion with hotels and citywalk, if you want to include that as noteworthy (I don't, but whatever floats your boat). And it looks like they'll finally have a water park to compete with Blizzard Beach and Typhoon Lagoon (and admittedly, one that seems like it's on track to best them, but I'm not a big water park guy. Nonetheless, I'll give them props for it if it turns out to be as great as its ambitious concepts appear to show).

But again, my point is that everyone keeps clamoring about the E-ticket producing machine that is Universal. It's an exaggeration. And they're certainly not going to "out-build" Disney over the next 6-7 years. Avatar, and (if all the rumors pan out) the huge DHS expansion, the 300+M going to each of MK and Epcot, and a potential separate expansion/E-ticket for MK.

Universal had terrible ownership until 2009 when they were bought by Comcast. That's when the money for E Tickets started rolling in. As to the "6-8 E Tickets in the next 6 years," here's what's happening right now and currently rumored on Orlando United.

2016: King Kong
2017: Volcano Bay and Fast & Furious
2018: Nintendoland with *drum roll please*............. Mario Kart.
???: Avengers E Ticket to go with an overall refresh of MSHI that's starting this year with Hulk.
???: The heavily hinted at Gyrosphere ride by the producer of Jurassic World.

I would like to say that this is all said to open before DHS is done in 2020/2021.

 

[Rutt]

Gonna respond to this in the proper thread.

Universal had terrible ownership until 2009 when they were bought by Comcast. That's when the money for E Tickets started rolling in. As to the "6-8 E Tickets" in the next 6 years, here's what's happening right now and currently rumored on Orlando United.

2016: King Kong
2017: Volcano Bay and Fast & Furious
2018: Nintendoland with *drum roll please*............. Mario Kart.
???: Avengers E Ticket to go with an overall refresh of MSHI that's starting this year with Hulk.
???: The heavily hinted at Gyrosphere ride by the producer of Jurassic World.

I would like to say that this is all said to open before DHS is done in 2020/2021.

This all sounds incredible!! I would love to do the Gyro ride!!
That being said, nobody has really even confirmed any sort of timeframes for DHS/DHA yet, and who knows what they have planned. There are rumours that the Pixar portion of DHA could be done as soon as next year. Nothing from Nintendo Land, Avengers or JW has been announced. Most of the 'rumours' on OU seem to be as wide and wild as the stuff being thrown around here for DHA/ Epcot/ MK the last few weeks.
In the meantime, Disney will also be opening Avatarland in that timeframe, and say what you will about the movie, if it is themed the way it sounds like it will be, it will be a hit.

Regardless, everything above really seems aimed at one age group and gender, and its one that Uni already has a large fanbase in. I don't see it making a huge dent in the Disney bubble, maybe an extra day in the parks, but it will still be an add on to a mouse vacation in the majority of cases. Uni needs to consider the babies (Seuss is pretty awesome if you ask me, but just not enough) and something for the ladies.

I also think they need to look into some hotels with more kid friendly theming. A couple of minion beds in a room is not enough really.

Just my opinion as to why most that I know of and help with trip planning end up at the World instead.

 

[Mike S]

This all sounds incredible!! I would love to do the Gyro ride!!
That being said, nobody has really even confirmed any sort of timeframes for DHS/DHA yet, and who knows what they have planned.

Regardless, everything above really seems aimed at one age group and gender, and its one that Uni already has a large fanbase in. I don't see it making a huge dent in the Disney bubble, maybe an extra day in the parks, but it will still be an add on to a mouse vacation in the majority of cases. Uni needs to consider the babies (Seuss is pretty awesome if you ask me, but just not enough) and something for the ladies.

I also think they need to look into some hotels with more kid friendly theming. A couple of minion beds in a room is not enough really.

Just my opinion as to why most that I know of and help with trip planning end up at the World instead.

I'm sure they're considering kids with Nintendo. Most likely the whole reason they made the deal. And while it's not much they are making that Hello Kitty store. Besides that I think Universal is fine with the demographics they have and don't feel like they have to drastically change their approach to attract different ones.

 

[TubaGeek]

This all sounds incredible!! I would love to do the Gyro ride!!
That being said, nobody has really even confirmed any sort of timeframes for DHS/DHA yet, and who knows what they have planned. There are rumours that the Pixar portion of DHA could be done as soon as next year. Nothing from Nintendo Land, Avengers or JW has been announced. Most of the 'rumours' on OU seem to be as wide and wild as the stuff being thrown around here for DHA/ Epcot/ MK the last few weeks.
In the meantime, Disney will also be opening Avatarland in that timeframe, and say what you will about the movie, if it is themed the way it sounds like it will be, it will be a hit.

Regardless, everything above really seems aimed at one age group and gender, and its one that Uni already has a large fanbase in. I don't see it making a huge dent in the Disney bubble, maybe an extra day in the parks, but it will still be an add on to a mouse vacation in the majority of cases. Uni needs to consider the babies (Seuss is pretty awesome if you ask me, but just not enough) and something for the ladies.

I also think they need to look into some hotels with more kid friendly theming. A couple of minion beds in a room is not enough really.

Just my opinion as to why most that I know of and help with trip planning end up at the World instead.

I don't agree with trying to cater to Disney's audience, but I DO agree with trying a more kid-friendly, moderate resort. Kids decide so much of what happens on a vacation, and they'd rather stay with minions than a place as great (for adults) as Porto.

 

[Rutt]

I don't agree with trying to cater to Disney's audience, but I DO agree with trying a more kid-friendly, moderate resort. Kids decide so much of what happens on a vacation, and they'd rather stay with minions than a place as great (for adults) as Porto.

I don't necessarily see it as catering to Disney's audience as much as it is catering to the big money spenders, the ladies and the younger ladies.
In my experience, the last person to spend money on themselves or to really decide what is going on with family vacations is generally Dad. We kinda roll with it. I love Uni (mind you I love Disney too) but I'm really alone right now in my family in that respect. Universal is a nice 'add on' to an Orlando vacation. WDW is a reason to go.