Two Spirited Quickees...Imagination closing

The Excavator

The Excavator

Well-Known Member
Rodan75 said:
Fast Pass doesn't increase the overall wait for an attraction, it increases the wait for Stand By lines.
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The overall wait for an attraction is tallied via the Stand-By wait time. You can't keep the overall wait time the same, and increase the Stand By wait times. They are not separable.
 
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SirOinksALot

Active Member
ParentsOf4 said:
WDW could be no different and, frankly, was a more pleasant experience when all guests felt they were being treated equally.
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Well then I'll just wait right here while you apply that same logic to Universal Express... any discussion of fairness of queuing systems should be fully inclusive, but never is because the little brother is always held to a much lower standard.
 
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SirOinksALot

Active Member
Angels and Disney's said:
The overall wait for an attraction is tallied via the Stand-By wait time. You can't keep the overall wait time the same, and increase the Stand By wait times. They are not separable.
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No, overall wait includes the amount of time from getting your FP ticket from the machine to getting on the ride. During that time, you are waiting to go on the ride. You are not standing in a queue, but you are waiting.

This is the fundamental point that, as I have said, people here do not get. You, ParentsOf4, others... you all think a FP holder waits five minutes. That is 100% conceptually inaccurate and 100% not debatable.

Under almost all circumstances, FP holders wait longer than people in the stand-by queue. They just do it in a computer while they walk around the park.
 
The Excavator

The Excavator

Well-Known Member
SirOinksALot said:
No, overall wait includes the amount of time from getting your FP ticket from the machine to getting on the ride. During that time, you are waiting to go on the ride. You are not standing in a queue, but you are waiting.

This is the fundamental point that, as I have said, people here do not get. You, ParentsOf4, others... you all think a FP holder waits five minutes. That is 100% conceptually inaccurate and 100% not debatable.
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You're not waiting. You're riding other attractions while place-holding in your fastpass attraction. That's not waiting, that's increasing demand.

The FP holders create an artificially longer Stand By Line. That's my point at least. The "Wait Time from this point" sign in front of FP attractions will always be longer than what it would be if there were not FPs. If one person waits less, another person will wait more, which is the essence of the FP system.
 
ParentsOf4

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
SirOinksALot said:
Well then I'll just wait right here while you apply that same logic to Universal Express... any discussion of fairness of queuing systems should be fully inclusive, but never is because the little brother is always held to a much lower standard.
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Please refer to my earlier post here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/two-spirited-quickees.868723/page-34#post-5599724

IMHO, Disney's FP is "better" than Uni's Express Pass. However, FP+ goes in the wrong direction, providing an advantage to onsite guests while simultaneously encouraging even more planning at a place already requiring too much planning.

Although I greatly appreciated WDW's FP for many years, I'm now of the opinion that express line systems have, in general, made amusement parks less enjoyable experiences. WDW and Uni (and Six Flags) would be better off without them.
 
Nubs70

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
FP+ is a lean manufacturing transformation. FP+ will serve to baseload all attractions with daily number of available seats. By manipulating the baseloading of attractions, WDW will be able to shift customer load to underloaded attractions (i.e. CoP).

Current FP allows for a time segment when loading for the ride is inelastic based on standby wait times. Once FP's are exhausted, line loading becomes purely elastic based on wait times discounting ride popularity. I.E. "The wait time is too long, therefore I will pass up the ride in favor of a ride with acceptable standby wait times."

If CoP fails to achieve a minimum acceptable baseload, a day will come where the attraction will be replaced. There is no place in lean manufacturing for nostalgia.

If WDW truly wants to lower wait times with current ride capacity, they should introduce dedicated singles lines. Where singles or groups who do not mind splitting up can fill that last empty seat that is available when a group of three is sitting in a four seat row. This works well at ski resorts, however, due to the cultural diversity at WDW, this may lead to more problems than any possible solution.
 
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doctornick

Well-Known Member
Rodan75 said:
So FastPass is a virtual queuing system. Fast Pass doesn't increase the overall wait for an attraction, it increases the wait for Stand By lines which is offset by a virtual queue that has a 5-10 minute wait on arrival.

I don't like how Fast Pass has changed the WDW experience, but to say it has made rides less available or increased the overall daily wait time is mathematically impossible.
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This. Looking at only the standby lines and the wait times misses an entire half of the equation. As long as someone is an average or better user of FP, they'll end up waiting less total time for rides during a day at the parks.

Unless someone will suggest that FP somehow reduces the capacity of rides, it has no impact on the average or total wait times for that attractions. It just distributes the wait differently (people using FP getting waiting less, people in standby waiting more).
 
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Admiral01

Premium Member
Rodan75 said:
So FastPass is a virtual queuing system. Fast Pass doesn't increase the overall wait for an attraction, it increases the wait for Stand By lines which is offset by a virtual queue that has a 5-10 minute wait on arrival.

I don't like how Fast Pass has changed the WDW experience, but to say it has made rides less available or increased the overall daily wait time is mathematically impossible.

I believe if they adjusted the Fast Pass distro quantities by hour for rides like Soarin and TSMM the stand-by lines would be bearable.
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I think I agree with what you are saying. But, the perceived wait also depends on when the guest is looking to ride the ride.

FastPass doesn't increase the average wait times for the attraction when calculated using FP and Standby wait times when those guests are in the actual queue (10 min FP and 50 min Standby = 30 min average wait time).

However, if you figure in the virtual wait time for an attraction, say I get a Soarin' FastPass at 2 PM for a 7 PM return time, and I figure that additional 5 hour virtual wait time into the average...it increases, at least for that given moment in time. Obviously, at 9 AM when the Soarin' FP return is for 9:30, and the Standby line is 20 minutes, the average is much lower than at 2 PM when the FP return is 7 PM, the FP queue is 10 minutes, and the Standby queue is 2 hours long.

We all agree that FP does increase the Standby wait times. Therefore, once FP distribution is complete for a given ride, anyone wanting to ride will have a much longer wait than they would have had in a world with no FP available at all. THAT is, I believe, what we don't like.

I've not waited in the Standby line for Soarin' at EPCOT since 2009. If I don't get to The Land in time to get a FP, I don't ride the ride. Same for TestTrack. If we don't get FP, we simply skip the attraction. I think that is too bad, but I'm not willing to waste 1 to 2 hours in a queue for a ride. We've never ridden TSMM at DHS because we never get to DHS in time to get a FP.

FastPass doesn't increase the daily capacity for a ride. If you assume each guest arrives at the park at the same time, and has equal access to FP and Standby, then mathematically it hasn't made the rides less available. But, if you assume staggered guest arrival to the park, which is what happens in reality, then guests arriving to the park late have less access to the attractions as the time FP is available while the individual is in the park is less than other guests who arrived earlier in the day.

Hopefully I'm not mistaken, or confusing. I now have the urge to sit outside the Soarin' queue area with my laptop and a spreadsheet, recording the StandBy, FastPass Return, and FP Queue time in 5 minute intervals to show how the average changes through the day and how the sliding average compares to the eventual daily average.
 
flynnibus

flynnibus

Premium Member
Angels and Disney's said:
Or maybe it's because you have no answer for it. So you dismiss the question as stupid rather than try to provide a reasonable response. It's not a "gotcha" question. You tell others they have failed logic but you refuse to answer a question for which, if your arguments were valid, you should be able to answer efficiently. Doesn't give a whole lot of credibility to your statements if you can't answer this question.
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You failed science... Then went a told the teacher they didn't know anything didn't you?
 
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Belowthesurface

Well-Known Member
SirOinksALot said:
You mean like mid-afternoon when Mummy goes down to one side and every other car is Express only? Yes.... consistently.

Twice in the past two weeks I've had to argue with a locker attendant that I'm not paying $3 to open my locker because it said free while I wait and did nothing but locker --> ride --> back to locker.
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All hours of the day I've had consistent lines and I go very often.

I'm sorry you had problems with a locker, but I'm not concerned with locker policies in this thread.
 

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