Two coasts: One very different world

[OrangeTree]

They could have brought the walls up to Toontown and left it as is. Someone even said (maybe this thread) that we should "mourn what we didn't get." Really? Ever seen videos of the kids that throw a fit on Christmas morning because they didn't get the exact toy they wanted? Same thing. It's an entitled and spoiled behavior.

The funny thing is more people would get behind the legitimate complaints if the posting behavior by some people was modified.

But the whole point of *that* is that it is settling for a lowered quality product.

Why should we do that if we are paying the Walt Disney Company for admission to a theme park that should offer the HIGHEST quality product?

Expect more out of them, not the bare minimum. Disney's past actions have made their mark on all of us. We've had it instilled in us to expect the best. Why not hold them to their standard? Their history?

Why should we act like we owe Disney something by not putting up a fuss? Are we really so tied to them that we can't reprimand them when they do wrong?

They are a company. Nothing more. Expect more out of them, don't coddle them and expect the benevolent Disney Gods of Team Disney Orlando to send some more pixie dust your way.

 

[OrangeTree]

So, DCA is no longer a punchline, and the MK now has a small fraction of a major refurbishment opened.

Are we considering FLE to be major?

The Tomorrowland expansion in 1975 was major. It added to the park. Horizons, the Living Seas, Morocco, Sunset Blvd, and E:E all added to their parks. Those were expansions.

Fantasyland 2 is a early 90s plan to make up for the fact that 20LutS closed along with several eateries and other small attractions. Now, it is 2012 and finally happening.

It will be nice, but I don't see it as anything monumental. Or an expansion. After all, we lost a classic in this mess, too.

Just sayin... That wasn't directed at you, X, just a interesting point to make...!

 

[bubbles1812]

Are we considering FLE to be major?

The Tomorrowland expansion in 1975 was major. It added to the park. Horizons, the Living Seas, Morocco, Sunset Blvd, and E:E all added to their parks. Those were expansions.

Fantasyland 2 is a early 90s plan to make up for the fact that 20LutS closed along with several eateries and other small attractions. Now, it is 2012 and finally happening.

It will be nice, but I don't see it as anything monumental. Or an expansion. After all, we lost a classic in this mess, too.

Just sayin... That wasn't directed at you, X, just a interesting point to make...!

I agree with everything you just said and in your previous post. I think NFE will be nice but nothing they are adding in has impressed me and giving me that "wow" feeling new additions to Disney's parks used to have. Especially when you consider the original plan was to rehab the place for $800 million and how much they axed out of that budget. It's really sad. It could have wowed us. I'd write up how I feel about the different things going in but I've already said it several times and wish not to be too broken of a record

 

[spacemt354]

Are we considering FLE to be major?

The Tomorrowland expansion in 1975 was major. It added to the park. Horizons, the Living Seas, Morocco, Sunset Blvd, and E:E all added to their parks. Those were expansions.

Fantasyland 2 is a early 90s plan to make up for the fact that 20LutS closed along with several eateries and other small attractions. Now, it is 2012 and finally happening.

It will be nice, but I don't see it as anything monumental. Or an expansion. After all, we lost a classic in this mess, too.

I think just the about of space that is being used by this project warrents it being considered an expansion, along with the others that you had named. This expansion is adding depth to the Magic Kingdom, in particular FL, that had never existed before. The land that is currently Storybook Circus now has immerse theming and a perminent foundation in the park, something that toontown and the other temporary lands could never say. The FLE is also adding a forest filled with lush trees and water effects, which brings a different experience to the purely medival themes that had been there before. Although the mermaid ride and the mine train may not be on the level of thrill as say E:E, they are still additions to the park that bring something new to the table, in addition to all the other new experiences as well (BB restaurant, Fairytale Hall, a few new M&Gs, 2 dumbo's w/ an a/c waiting area, and many more) . And although to you Snow White's Scary Adventures was a classic, I on the other hand was scared by it as a kid and I'm still scared by it now. I'm not too sorry to see it go, but that is another story. I just feel like some people are selling this project short because of other more expensive projects like Carsland and the DCA revamp. The MK doesn't need that kind of revamp, it's already the most visited park in the U.S. They must be doing something right in the MK, or else people wouldn't be at the park. So by those numbers, they don't need an 800 million expansion. I think, from the looks of it, this is just the expansion that the Magic Kingdom needs.

 

[marni1971]

,They must be doing something right in the MK, or else people wouldn't be at the park.

They are doing a minimum. Feeling is they don't have to do more since the place is called Walt Disney World.

 

[SSE]

I don't know why Disney should try and be the best they could be, afterall my favorite Walt quote after all is "It's kind of fun to do the (least)possible".

 

[OrangeTree]

I agree with everything you just said and in your previous post. I think NFE will be nice but nothing they are adding in has impressed me and giving me that "wow" feeling new additions to Disney's parks used to have. Especially when you consider the original plan was to rehab the place for $800 million and how much they axed out of that budget. It's really sad. It could have wowed us. I'd write up how I feel about the different things going in but I've already said it several times and wish not to be too broken of a record

Thanks.

I expect there to be some WOW factor left... mostly for the reasons listed below...

I think just the about of space that is being used by this project warrents it being considered an expansion, along with the others that you had named. This expansion is adding depth to the Magic Kingdom, in particular FL, that had never existed before. The land that is currently Storybook Circus now has immerse theming and a perminent foundation in the park, something that toontown and the other temporary lands could never say. The FLE is also adding a forest filled with lush trees and water effects, which brings a different experience to the purely medival themes that had been there before. Although the mermaid ride and the mine train may not be on the level of thrill as say E:E, they are still additions to the park that bring something new to the table, in addition to all the other new experiences as well (BB restaurant, Fairytale Hall, a few new M&Gs, 2 dumbo's w/ an a/c waiting area, and many more) . And although to you Snow White's Scary Adventures was a classic, I on the other hand was scared by it as a kid and I'm still scared by it now. I'm not too sorry to see it go, but that is another story. I just feel like some people are selling this project short because of other more expensive projects like Carsland and the DCA revamp. The MK doesn't need that kind of revamp, it's already the most visited park in the U.S. They must be doing something right in the MK, or else people wouldn't be at the park. So by those numbers, they don't need an 800 million expansion. I think, from the looks of it, this is just the expansion that the Magic Kingdom needs.

Yes, the "expansion" is adding depth to the MK. That's the big wow. FL will actually look falfway decent and maybe even comparable to the lovely FL out West and the one in Paris. Or... at least part of it.

But...is this the best that Disney could do? Nope. Not close. This is stop gap. And to think that this was forced upon them in the first place.

I am excited to see the whole new look of the thing, but beyond that, nothing really is special here.

 

[wannab@dis]

But the whole point of *that* is that it is settling for a lowered quality product.

I don't see anything "lower quality" about the new Dumbos, their queue, train station, area theming or even Caseys. In fact, it looks like they went the extra mile in the improvements and theming. I'm sorry that you don't see it that way, but they can't please everyone.

 

[spacemt354]

Especially when you consider the original plan was to rehab the place for $800 million and how much they axed out of that budget. It's really sad. It could have wowed us. I'd write up how I feel about the different things going in but I've already said it several times and wish not to be too broken of a record

Maybe I'm not aware, but what was so special about the original $800 million FLE? The only differences I can remember from the expansion we have now was the incorporation of several interactive princess M&G areas and a pixie hollow. I thought the reason they had scraped that idea was because it was too geared to young girls, and not to the family as a whole. FL is meant for families of all ages, which is why the mine train will not be as thrilling of a roller coaster as say Space Mountain. Something as thrilling and wowing as SM doesn't fit with the purpose of the land, which is to have rides for everyone. So they cut the budget.. but that doesn't mean the things that are being built under that budget are not going to be of the highest quality.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Maybe I'm not aware, but what was so special about the original $800 million FLE? The only differences I can remember from the expansion we have now was the incorporation of several interactive princess M&G areas and a pixie hollow. I thought the reason they had scraped that idea was because it was too geared to young girls, and not to the family as a whole. FL is meant for families of all ages, which is why the mine train will not be as thrilling of a roller coaster as say Space Mountain. Something as thrilling and wowing as SM doesn't fit with the purpose of the land, which is to have rides for everyone. So they cut the budget.. but that doesn't mean the things that are being built under that budget are not going to be of the highest quality.

That was not the $800M plan; that plan would have been even before the site plan leaked online well ahead the first D23 Expo.

It's been thrown around so much lately... what the heck was in this $800M plan?

 

[misterID]

That was not the $800M plan; that plan would have been even before the site plan leaked online well ahead the first D23 Expo.

It's been thrown around so much lately... what the heck was in this $800M plan?

Pixie Hollow

The interactive Tink was pretty cool, though.

 

[WDW1974]

The crux of these assertions that WDW was “better” back in the 80’s and 90’s revolves around a fundamental part of the business that has drastically changed. Back in the good old days, Disney ran everything and had total control of all operations. When the park would close for the night the 3rd shift maintenance crews would come in and fix anything that was broken. They’d even make repair parts in the machine shop at 3 AM if that was necessary.

You never saw a painter, carpenter or any other skilled craftsman working within the park during operating hours. Not only did you not see them, you didn’t hear them either (behind construction walls). There used to be a time that all Disney work was done by Disney employees. From garbage collection to high hazard work, Disney CM’s did it all. That changed years ago. It is not uncommon to see and hear employees of a local painting or building contractor working on projects in any of the U.S. Disney parks

Just like any other business (and the government), Disney found that it was far less expensive to contract out most of their facilities management work. They also found that it was less expensive to contract out the entertainment side as well. Remember “The Living Statues”? They were a contract company. You all know “Push” and “Pipa” the talking trash cans. They’re run by a private contractor as well.

The bottom line to all of this is that in the old days when a show element broke, the Disney maintenance staff could quickly respond to fix the problem even if it required making a replacement part in the machine shop in the middle of the night. Those days are long gone. The only things that get fixed fast are safety problems. Most broken show items get put into the normal maintenance rotation and get fixed according to schedule. I’m sorry, but that aspect is not going to change. Disney is a business first.

Absolutely.

And there are more than one way to run a business, even a business as large as WDW Co.

There's this incorrect notion (probably too many folks watching talking heads on CNBC, CNN, FOX etc) that there's only one way to successfully run a business financially and that is always cutting, always streamlining (as its called, I call it Walmarting) and always only being concerned with the price of a share of stock tomorrow.

That's simply not true.

Quality may cost a bit more when you've been doing things the LCD way for the better part of15 years, but it can pay huge dividends down the road.

 

[WDW1974]

The facts are accurate, and illustrate the reasons behind the decline at WDW.
Where I disagree is with the statement that it is not going to change. It certainly can change. An administration made the move to this (in my opinion horrible) business model, and another administration can change it back.

All that is needed is for someone in power to realize that there is money to be made by offering a higher quality product, like Disney offered in the past. They certainly were doing fine back then, and can do the same in the future if they were to revert to the old model...and fire everyone responsible for the first change.

While that's putting things simply (and it is a bit more complicated), it's also very accurate.

Big business today is all about modeling and metrics and just because it is being done/WDW is being run one fashion today doesn't mean there aren't other ways out there and ... other ways that could lead to both higher guest (AND FAN) satisfaction as well as higher profits.

The idea there is simply one way to do it is laughable and wrong.

 

[WDW1974]

This is part of why I do not get why people so adore Staggs. He made a name for himself at Disney being actively involved in the pushing of the shift of culture at the end of Eisner's ears that so many so hate.

Folks like him, frankly, because he is a good looking, energetic businessman that at least shows up in the parks every now and again (even when no cameras are around) ... oh, and because he is not Jay Rasulo, who is one of the most unlikeable execs at TWDC.

But at the end of the day, he has been a HUGE part of the P&R problem dating back many years (as you stated) and he needs to leave.

 

[WDW1974]

Because in the summer when it's a 100 degrees and 80%+ humidity.. cooling off is a wonderful thing. You can't cool off here, if the pool is all the way back at the resort.

Gee, I wonder what kids did for the first 3-4 decades of Disney parks without being able to get half (or in some cases fully) naked and run around a giant spirnkler in a theme park. And then to not be soaked all/half the day ... I don't know how my folks ever took me to a THEME park without packing a bathing suit for me ...

I really would like to know the idiot who came up with the idea for the first one, which I'm pretty sure was at EPCOT in the early 90s.

 

[WDW1974]

Are we considering FLE to be major?

The Tomorrowland expansion in 1975 was major. It added to the park. Horizons, the Living Seas, Morocco, Sunset Blvd, and E:E all added to their parks. Those were expansions.

Fantasyland 2 is a early 90s plan to make up for the fact that 20LutS closed along with several eateries and other small attractions. Now, it is 2012 and finally happening.

It will be nice, but I don't see it as anything monumental. Or an expansion. After all, we lost a classic in this mess, too.

Just sayin... That wasn't directed at you, X, just a interesting point to make...!

Let all the folks who believe they are getting a big, new, EXPANDED MK read this over a few times and then look at what they really are getting and what the word expansion means.

 

[WDW1974]

I don't see anything "lower quality" about the new Dumbos, their queue, train station, area theming or even Caseys. In fact, it looks like they went the extra mile in the improvements and theming. I'm sorry that you don't see it that way, but they can't please everyone.

True ... but how many people are going to be blown away by adding a second spinner, replacing a 20-year-old 'temporary' train station with a new version and adding a kiddie fountain? How many are going to plan MAGICal $8,000 WDW vacations based on the 'new' offerings?

At the end of the day, what you are talking about is very, very minor. I don't know how you can say otherwise when you see what Disney can do elsewhere and what UNI and SW are doing right across town.

Is it lower quality than all those projects? Yes. Absolutely.

And is it lower quality than past WDW efforts? Yes. Absolutely.

I'm sorry that you (and others) don't see it that way, but still that doesn't change the reality.

 

[WDW1974]

That was not the $800M plan; that plan would have been even before the site plan leaked online well ahead the first D23 Expo.

It's been thrown around so much lately... what the heck was in this $800M plan?

An entire redo of ALL of Fantasyland, including all facades and interiors of shops and dining that previously existed, all attractions would also receive a thorough cleaning and plussing ... and the 'new' addition area was going to include another attraction ... an E-Ticket based on Disney's oldest and best known characters as the centerpiece.

That was cut way back before the D23 thing ever happened.

 

[bubbles1812]

Maybe I'm not aware, but what was so special about the original $800 million FLE? The only differences I can remember from the expansion we have now was the incorporation of several interactive princess M&G areas and a pixie hollow. I thought the reason they had scraped that idea was because it was too geared to young girls, and not to the family as a whole. FL is meant for families of all ages, which is why the mine train will not be as thrilling of a roller coaster as say Space Mountain. Something as thrilling and wowing as SM doesn't fit with the purpose of the land, which is to have rides for everyone. So they cut the budget.. but that doesn't mean the things that are being built under that budget are not going to be of the highest quality.

Sorry, what 74' wrote above was what I was actually referring to, not Pixie Hollow and M&G enhancements...those I would have found just as blah. And I wasn't looking for the Dwarf Mine to be on the same "thrill" level as SM...I've said in other posts, I'd liken its potential to Big Thunder. It's not an intense roller coaster at all but it has such great theming throughout, that it more than makes up for it. Instead we are getting something much closer to Barnstormer. And Barnstormer is fine for what it is but it's not wowing in any way, shape, or form. There are kiddie roller coasters like that at pretty much every carnival and amusement park.

And I'm not saying that the incarnation of the ride that we are getting won't be nice but from my perspective, it's not going to be of the highest quality in the sense that I know it's not the best Disney could do. Look at Lee's posts especially. I believe he discussed what the Mine ride originally was going to have versus now. The ride is something like 30% shorter and there is only one major show scene when there used to be several, ect. I see no reason why they had to cut that budget other than that they were just being cheap.

 

[OrangeTree]

Let all the folks who believe they are getting a big, new, EXPANDED MK read this over a few times and then look at what they really are getting and what the word expansion means.

Woo! High praise from Da Spirit!

Thanks!