Two coasts: One very different world

[Tom]

All in all, I just miss the wow factor at WDW.


Disneyland guests are being wow'd. When was the last time us east coasters were wow'd? RnRC? ToT?

I want a show stopping "wow" in parks C or D in the near future.

 

[WDW1974]

I think a majority of the post are started here with the intent of sharing new information. Yours obviously wasn't. However, I don't want to get bogged down in semantics that really aren't even my jurisdiction when we may be on the verge of a strained respectable relationship.

Fine. I am willing to let it go in the interest of more important discussion points. ... Jake, believe it or not, I have respect for you. I do think you have a brain (or maybe half of one!) and I think you can bring to the table valuable perspective and info. I do think you get too bogged down in the tone of my posts or even my use of hyperbole and provocative turns of a phrase instead of focusing on what my points may be.

And have I ever committed or insinuated that I would commit any of those act against you or another board member?

This is a fun distraction for me. It's a TV show I can participate in. Nothing more. If I get frustrated with anyone around here, including you, it's the same level of frustration I get when something on Battlestar Galatica didn't go the way I thought it would years ago.

That's all it is for me, largely. I may take it a bit more serious because I'll often hear that someone high up the power structures in O-Town, Anaheim, Glendale or Burbank either mentioned something I posted or used similar comments soon after I hit 'post'. ... But I have had MAJOR issues with crazies in the fan community and that isn't fun. It is scary. Although if I ever write my tome on 'Mental Health and the Disney Fan Community: How Pixie Dust Distorts Reality and Destroys Minds' at least I have plenty of personal fodder to place in it.

However, I will save comments on posting style in general for later as it is a general comment not centered on you and I don't want this to turn into a "you don't like the way I say things thread". Again we are on the precipice of an actual discussion. I don't want to derail it by over hashed commentary on your specific posting style.

Good. I REALLY get tired of talking about myself... I'd much rather talk about Lee, the man has an amazing singing voice!

I think that's beside the point as we can address the issue with the WDW fan base without comparing them to Anaheim.

Sure you can, but I don't see any harm in pointing out just why DLR fans have been so successful at bringing about positive changes, while WDW fans haven't.

You don't see Bob Iger saying ''We've made some major missteps with Disney's Animal Kingdom (or Disney's Hollywood Studios) and because of that we've going to be making some major changes and major investment' etc.

They absolutely believe WDW can survive as a real estate endeavor with the absolute barest minumum's of investment in the parks.

Fantasyland is a $350 million project tops (and that's with WDI's crazy spending). It is taking a ridiculous five years from announcement to completion and that's after the original $800 million (and amazing) total land redo was shot down and the subsequent plan went through multiple versions. And when 2014 comes and it is all done, the MK will have gone 22 years without a major E-Ticket attraction added and NO plans on the horizon for one.

Since this is the meat of the discussion, I'm going to take this piece by piece. I think polarization as I described it isn't fully behind the issue. I think the impact of one side or the other is a matter of opinion and truly is not quantifiable. The entrenchment of their views is the main issue and that does go for both sides.

That may be and is to a certain extent, but let me offer a counter point. If you know your influence (not yours particularly, but your like minded opinion) is getting crowded out of view, why are you seemingly content to sit here and be less than proactive about it? I don't mean that in an antagonizing way. It is an honest question.

And I am going to be 100% honest in answering this (sorta like I am with largely everything I post --or I try anyway). ... But what in the world (or the World) makes you think I am not acting behind the scenes and well beyond the scope of a fan site. There are people in Disney management, high levels at that, who absolutely hate me. Do you think it's because I can get attention of fans with provocative posts on discussion forums? We BOTH know that these forums aren't quite that important, although a bit more than many people who post on them likely believe.

I am being proactive right now in multiple ways on multiple coasts involving multiple business units.
Because I want change. And I don't want simply things that I like or Journey Into Imagination would be back tomorrow and Mission Space would just be an Eddie Sotto bad idea (let's see how fast it takes someone here to run to him with this one! ...I really miss my Dr. Evil smiley!) I want the parks better for everyone and that even means things I may not be particularly fond of because ... and this might shock you, jake, but I'm not really all about myself.

I think the US in general is very jaded towards established media right now. I would be interested to see what the market penetration is for the vast number of bloggers that seem to be under Disney's wing. I don't want to get distracted on this point though.

I would love to know. Disney's metrics on this whole blogging game (and that is what it is if you are a fan with the desire to live your life in theme parks and Disney annoints you to its media list) seem crazy. And I KNOW Bricker will return with all sorts of stats and figures as to why Jim Hill or Mouseplanet is more important to the company than the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Entertainment Weekly and Variety combined. I will tell him very nicely that if you torture numbers enough they will say anything and that he is full of pooh.

Oops, I did get distracted on this point. ... But it is late and I intended to answer this this afternoon only to have my Spirited Father decide he wanted to start celebrating Dad's Day a bit early!

I may not even make it through your post entirely and have to return to it tomorrow.

Now, I'm going to make some comments about the type of communication being used. I'm prefacing this in the context of addressing grievances as a whole, not a person, to TWDC. I don't want this to turn into another referendum on your particular style of posting, although that is going to factor into it.

Obviously you are well connected and you at least garner a passing glance from the suits at Disney. Due to this you apparently embellish your style with flair that some (including myself) consider off putting. While that is fine with you because you seem to be secure in the level of respect you can maintain within the halls of Burbank, I think the net effect on what you are trying to accomplish is negative. Like it or not your tone permeates the (only as a descriptive term) D&G crowd.

I thought we were going to stay away from my style?! ... I have plenty of respect in the halls of Burbank and I;m willing to bet I'm the only poster here who the former head of TWDC (and still the largest individual shareholder because he hated the company so much and wanted to destroy it!) would know personally and buy a drink (or multiple) for. And many of the people who revile me in the company also respect me (one even called me 'dangerous' last year and not in the 'he's gonna come after me with a butcher knife' way, but more in the 'I wonder what it would take to get him onboard with us' way).

My tone is what it is. I don't know how to be any different and still be effective. I am what you read here (to some degree) in real life and, believe it or not, I make friends easily.

I think that tone is a detriment not to courting TWDC (that ship has long sailed), but in reaching out to the core crowd that needs to be converted to make any sort of measurable gain. There are plenty of moderates here that don't speak up because of the tone of the D&G crowd is fairly irrational, even though they may agree with the basic points. As I said early, constructive inroads against the Pixie Dusters (again, only a descriptive term and referring mainly to bloggers) is the way to go in my opinion, not confrontation.

Well, I have no desire to court the WDC (unless they'd like me to run their Social Media Dept or, better yet, their WDW resort!) I don't for one second see my tone (or any of the respected critics and that's what we are, not Doom and Gloomers) as 'fairly irrational', I see it as honest and blunt and tough. I don't wish to chase any moderates away (and are we assuming that any exist and are just in hiding like the GOP?), but they should speak their mind. Everyone should (no matter the viewpoints held) with just one caveat: the ability to discuss and debate like an adult and the ability to think that maybe they aren't right.

There is enough wrong at WDW that points can be made without catchphrases, name calling, and pigeonholing. There are also plenty of airtight arguments (Yeti, Splash) to be made that grasping for reason to be offended (HM queue, Dumbo Next-Gen Line) isn't necessary. The shotgun approach the D&G crowd takes against the Pixie Dusters is only to the benefit of the latter group. The Pixie Dusters are getting concise talking points directly from Disney. The D&G are just word vomiting on the internet.

Until the D&G crowd can reign it in, use indisputable facts, moderate, consolidate, and propagate their message the bloggers are going to "win".

That's all for me tonight. It's probably a little jumbled. I do look forward to your response.

I see your point and agree with some of it (mostly the focus on things that are major issues -- FWIW, that was the purpose of this thread, to illustrate the vast chasm of quaity and investment TWDC is putting in its parks in Anaheim vs. Orlando).

I don't see this a winning or losing proposition. The bloggers are always going to come out like they are somehow right, even when reality shows differently, simply because they have the explicit support of the Disney Social Media Machine.

If you've just returned from a MAGICal all expense paid junket to Anaheim, then you're going to praise the relatively small scale Fantasyland project because you understand how the game is played. And if your audience is FLA based, they will likely allow you to convince them that just like Carsland, Fantasyland represents the best of what Disney can do.

But it is late and I am not sure I am being coherent, so we'll have to continue this ...

 

[twistedmickey]

We are getting a clone of the Little Mermaid ride which should of opened 20 yrs ago. We are also getting a Belle restaurant again almost 20 years late. And then the only unique attraction is the Mine Train but that opens in two years. There is something very very wrong with the management at TDO!

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I think its all just great.

Thanks for posting.

 

[Lee]

Good. I REALLY get tired of talking about myself... I'd much rather talk about Lee, the man has an amazingly bad singing voice!

There. Fixed that for ya.

 

[flynnibus]

I don't think this is likely, if even possible, for a few reasons.

See.. it's possible for you to make your points without needing to backhand and be smug about others. Post like this all the time and you'd get the wider following. The high road suits you far better.

 

[lebeau]

What would it take to make our voices heard more effectively? I butorsknow Fix the Magic is out there. Do they just need more contributors?

It seems to me if there was one blog where people posted pixie-dust-free views of WDW, it might gain some traction. It could be counter-programming to all the mommy blogs out there. No one involved would likely get free cruises out of the deal. But maybe we could get some attention where it needs to be.

Does such a thing exist right now? If so, do we all just need to become more active participants? If not, who's interested in starting a movement?

Any other ideas?

 

[Californian Elitist]

^^^Yesterday I was told the majority of WDW goers don't have a problem with the condition it is in. I was told 17 million people will still be visiting, despite the management issues. So if this is true, overall no one really cares that the yeti doesn't work, along with lightbulbs, animatronics, etc.

 

[RSoxNo1]

All in all, I just miss the wow factor at WDW.


Disneyland guests are being wow'd. When was the last time us east coasters were wow'd? RnRC? ToT?

I want a show stopping "wow" in parks C or D in the near future.

These moments do exist in Florida, but realistically there haven't been any new ones since a fully functional Everest.

 

[lebeau]

^^^Yesterday I was told the majority of WDW goers don't have a problem with the condition it is in. I was told 17 million people will still be visiting, despite the management issues. So if this is true, overall no one really cares that the yeti doesn't work, along with lightbulbs, animatronics, etc.

I get that. I really do.

But I do think if someone was out there with a loud enough voice pointing these things out, some change could happen. Likely it would take a lot of someones all using the same megaphone. But if that venue got enough attention then all of the unified voices could be heard. People would start to take notice.

If something like that is out there already, I'd like to participate. If not, I'll start recruiting.

 

[lebeau]

Seriously? Fix the Magic is closed? What happened?!?

 

[djlaosc]

Meanwhile down the street at Universal I'm once again hearing talk of another attraction to go between MIB and Simpsons, the new attraction to replace Herc/Xena, the Kidzone project - all on top of Potter phase 2! Somebody is getting serious about success in Orlando and it cerainly isn't Disney!

When do you think that any of this will be announced? Started? Finished?

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Seriously? Fix the Magic is closed? What happened?!?

They couldnt afford the servers required to host a site requiring soooooo many pages detailing faults.

 

[lebeau]

I'm about to head out for some Father's Day fun. If anyone is interested in pulling together our resources, let me know either here or in a PM. What I have in mind is a blog that would discuss all things Disney in an honest way. Not with a negative slant, but not with a nose full of Pixie Dust either. A Pixie Dust-Free Zone if you will.

Let's hear some ideas. Let's see some people raise their hands. There's nothing to loose except some free cruises you weren't going to get anyway (unless you are an exceptionally talented photographer maybe). Let's get together, have some fun and see if maybe we can change the conversation.

Who's with me?

*crickets*



Well, think it over and get back to me. Could be fun.

 

[NewfieFan]

Seriously? Fix the Magic is closed? What happened?!?

Yep! Did you get the email? I registered on the site but never really posted as I didn't have anything to report. I visited Disney a couple of times after the site was open but still didn't have any real noteworthy news to share. The site would be better serviced by locals, I'm sure... who are there more often. And it's hard to focus on all the problems when you're at Disney with your family trying to have a good time. There's nothing wrong with snorting Pixie Dust on a vacation you just payed a lot of money for.
I think the site could have worked... but needed a bigger following and some folks who were dedicated to reporting the problems.

 

[Californian Elitist]

I get that. I really do.

But I do think if someone was out there with a loud enough voice pointing these things out, some change could happen. Likely it would take a lot of someones all using the same megaphone. But if that venue got enough attention then all of the unified voices could be heard. People would start to take notice.

If something like that is out there already, I'd like to participate. If not, I'll start recruiting.

Tell this to all your friends here. I tried to tell some people to have some pride about their home resort but I didn't get far. At all. Honestly though, if WDW's main clientel is international tourists then I doubt anything will change anytime soon. I'm guessing they will still be visiting. What WDW needs is a strong AP group like Disneyland's.

 

[Tiggerrules]

Normally I just lurk around here hoping for any news that something amazing will be coming to WDW. However, I have come to the conclusion that all we will get is clones from other parks and half completed refurbs. At this point I would even take a clone of RSR, doubt that is going to happen ever. Our next trip in November we will spending time at other venues (Seaworld, Kennedy Space Center, maybe UNI. which we normally would not). We are also looking at doing a trip DLR instead in the future. It just amazes me that the place we used to spend between $500 and $1000 on merchandise every trip, I now have a hard time finding anything that I like to have. Our last trip we spent about $100 on merchandise, WDW should realize where they are truly losing money from, but I doubt they will. Ok enough venting, at least until they release the upcoming projects for DLR, while WDW sits and idly passes the time away.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Tell this to all your friends here. I tried to tell some people to have some pride about their home resort but I didn't get far. At all. Honestly though, if WDW's main clientel is international tourists then I doubt anything will change anytime soon. I'm guessing they will still be visiting. What WDW needs is a strong AP group like Disneyland's.

Well Im going to DL this year instead. so drip drip drip......

 

[Tim_4]

Hardly seems fair to compare Casey Jr. to Cars Land as if they're supposed to even remotely be the same thing. Compare Cars Land to the COMPLETED Fantasyland and then this conversation might have a place.

 

[Brava Centauri]

Unfortunately, I think the only voice Disney listens to is the Almighty Dollar. With the sheer numbers, both domestic and international that WDW pulls in that are not die-hard fans (or even repeat visitors), what motivation do they have to fix and plus everything when the current status-quo works very well for them. All the basic, poorly designed, generic souvenir crap gets bought up in droves by the South American tour groups. Kids cry until Mom and Dad buy them all the basic, generic Princess/Pirate/Franchise toys they could find for half the price at Target or Walmart. The basic tourist doesn't see the trash, the half-functioning attractions, the other attractions that never got a completed refurb, and the less-than-cutting-edge new stuff that seems to only have been built to drive more toy sales. And for all that, they yet again raise ticket prices.

The only way to get Disney to listen, is to stop visiting. And Joe Tourist won't stop visiting until they finally price themselves out of the family market, major injuries result from cutbacks, and other problems become glaringly obvious even to the non-fan.