News Tron coaster coming to the Magic Kingdom

[Missing20K]

It is a very quick timeline. Something else to consider: Building EPCOT is also the type of work that brings multiple national companies into an area, that have more resources to throw around. Building Tron and other current projects is more of a job for local/regional construction companies. Plus they didn't earn a dime on Epcot til it was open. MK doesn't need Tron to make money.




There's also a tremendous lack of quality construction employees. Frankly the industry is still seeing the fallout from the 2008 crash. Crews I see are a mix of a few grizzled veterans ready to retire and bunch of young guys that don't have a clue. In 2008, all the young guys were laid off and lots of them found other jobs and never came back. They'd be the foremen right now, helping train the new generation, but they just aren't there.

Not to say all of the projects couldn't be done quicker. Quality project/quick project/cheap project - choose 2.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Agree on all points. We have a saying around here, you can have it done right, you can have it done quickly, but you can't have it done right and quickly.

 

[marni1971]

Still a very quick timeline that would just be nearly impossible for any firm to meet based on current design and construction processes. Thanks for the info!

EDIT: Did they use multiple outside firms for construction?.

Yep. I had a rough list somewhere but can’t find it now.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Agree on all points. We have a saying around here, you can have it done right, you can have it done quickly, but you can't have it done right and quickly.

 

[disneyC97]

A motorlodge does not typically have interior hallways/room entrances.

 

[Timothy_Q]

View attachment 292743

Good + Fast = EPCOT
Fast + Cheap = Mision Breakout
Cheap + Good = Discovery Island New Color Scheme

Expensive, Slow and Bad = TSL?

 

[Missing20K]

A motorlodge does not typically have interior hallways/room entrances.

Typically, yes, motor lodges usually have exterior doors and windows to maintain a view of your auto as well as easy entry and exit to said auto. But that's not to say that all did or do. But more to the point, the structure of the Poly buildings are nearly identical to the typical motels of the 60's. A matter of pedantry, imo.

 

[MagicJack78]

Good + Fast = EPCOT
Fast + Cheap = Mision Breakout
Cheap + Good = Discovery Island New Color Scheme

Expensive, Slow and Bad = TSL?

Toy story Land on its own Merit is an Okay addition, but that is not what it is. In combination with the rest of the park and the three e-tickets coming in 2019,it is an awesome addition that fits a purpose for families and children and has some pretty cool unique themeing.

Yes it is being marketed as the next big thing by Disney because that is what they do, but we really know what this is and that is "part" of the overall product which will be complete next year. I can't wait!

 

[lazyboy97o]

Dumb question alert. What kind of design work would be needed if it is a clone of the one in China? Are you talking the engineering stuff that deals with soil and building footers or something different? Not being snarky but just wondering.

Design is far more than just what is seen as a guest. It includes how everything, literally everything, goes together.

Hypothetically, let’s just look at the bathrooms as an example. This won’t be specifically about the bathrooms in the TRON building but I know it does have Cast Member bathrooms and that Chinese and US regulations do not align. Bathrooms are an area with very specific regulations, especially when it comes to accessibility. The following are some of the specific regulations that a wheelchair accessible toilet must meet: height, distance from the wall, clear space around the toilet, location of grab bars and location of the toilet in relation to the stall door.

Let’s say the accessible toilet, which is in a corner, has to move to the other wall. That wall may not be big enough to hold the plumbing for the toilet, so it has to get bigger. If it is a wall mounted toilet then the wall may be getting even bigger still. How does “stuff” get out of the toilet? You have to move those pipes too and they have to maintain a certain slope which means they could be taking up more space. And what is on the other side of that wall that had to get bigger? What if there is other equipment that has certain to be in a certain sized room that just got smaller?

That’s just a few issues that could arise in moving a toilet. The structure needs to be redesigned, or maybe even changed completely, for the local soil and wind loads. The HVAC system needs to be redesigned for the local climate. The electrical systems need to be redesigned for the local power supply. The location of waterproofing on the exterior walls might change based on climate. The type or amount of insulation can change based on the climate and energy codes. Emergency exit doors have to studied to ensure they are in the right locations, maybe more are needed or the exit path needs to change. All of those changes can and do have ripple effects like the toilet example above.

That’s just the legal and due diligence changes. Then there are possible operational or creative changes, even if minor. Ratatouille has an upcoming closure to fix its floor, so it makes sense to not make that mistake twice.

Nope, this is great information. I always just scratch my head why a park like Kings Island can build a new coaster in roughly ten months but the same ride takes so much longer in WDW. However, I'm not privy to all the background work that KI has already done before they start construction.

Steel coasters do routinely go from idea to opening day in 18-24 months but they are also not a lot. Most stations are little more than a roof and the maintenance area is a rather simple shed. The coasters themselves are all fabricated offsite and then assembled on site.

The Polynesian was a lot more than a 60s motor lodge... That is an over simplification... and I am sure there are more regulations now, but 2 years and 4 months worth of regulations? I have no expectaion of them building this ride in 8 months, but 3+ years seems awfully excessive.

When did fabrication of the rooms start?

A lot of those approvals and plan designs are done long before the first dirt is moved and usuall long before any public announcement is ever made...let alone artwork of the completed attraction created... Before we see anything and any sort of concept art released publicly, working plans etc are already done...

You are way off.

Look at slide 6 of this presentation:
https://network.aia.org/HigherLogic...tFileKey=25eadd48-6fff-4a2f-ae26-cef8a77d4f6d

Disney very often announces projects shortly after the Feasibility phase. There are exceptions like the Skyliner but it’s quite common, even with TRON. The end of Schematic Design is usually considered to be around 20% completion of design. That’s a lot of design work left to be done after an announcement and even at least some sort of art release. “Working plans” are not done. This is also why a project site will sit untouched after an announcement.

Approvals and plans are not done before the first dirt is moved. For large projects Disney often makes some use of the fast-track process where design and construction are overlapped. You don’t need a finished design to start site work, you don’t even need a finalized building footprint. Look at some of the South Florida Water Management District permits and you will see some that are just based around a general area and not any specific buildings. Even parts of actual vertical construction can and are overlapped with design.

 

[Missing20K]

Design is far more than just what is seen as a guest. It includes how everything, literally everything, goes together.

Hypothetically, let’s just look at the bathrooms as an example. This won’t be specifically about the bathrooms in the TRON building but I know it does have Cast Member bathrooms and that Chinese and US regulations do not align. Bathrooms are an area with very specific regulations, especially when it comes to accessibility. The following are some of the specific regulations that a wheelchair accessible toilet must meet: height, distance from the wall, clear space around the toilet, location of grab bars and location of the toilet in relation to the stall door.

Let’s say the accessible toilet, which is in a corner, has to move to the other wall. That wall may not be big enough to hold the plumbing for the toilet, so it has to get bigger. If it is a wall mounted toilet then the wall may be getting even bigger still. How does “stuff” get out of the toilet? You have to move those pipes too and they have to maintain a certain slope which means they could be taking up more space. And what is on the other side of that wall that had to get bigger? What if there is other equipment that has certain to be in a certain sized room that just got smaller?

That’s just a few issues that could arise in moving a toilet. The structure needs to be redesigned, or maybe even changed completely, for the local soil and wind loads. The HVAC system needs to be redesigned for the local climate. The electrical systems need to be redesigned for the local power supply. The location of waterproofing on the exterior walls might change based on climate. The type or amount of insulation can change based on the climate and energy codes. Emergency exit doors have to studied to ensure they are in the right locations, maybe more are needed or the exit path needs to change. All of those changes can and do have ripple effects like the toilet example above.

That’s just the legal and due diligence changes. Then there are possible operational or creative changes, even if minor. Ratatouille has an upcoming closure to fix its floor, so it makes sense to not make that mistake twice.


Steel coasters do routinely go from idea to opening day in 18-24 months but they are also not a lot. Most stations are little more than a roof and the maintenance area is a rather simple shed. The coasters themselves are all fabricated offsite and then assembled on site.


When did fabrication of the rooms start?


You are way off.

Look at slide 6 of this presentation:
https://network.aia.org/HigherLogic...tFileKey=25eadd48-6fff-4a2f-ae26-cef8a77d4f6d

Disney very often announces projects shortly after the Feasibility phase. There are exceptions like the Skyliner but it’s quite common, even with TRON. The end of Schematic Design is usually considered to be around 20% completion of design. That’s a lot of design work left to be done after an announcement and even at least some sort of art release. “Working plans” are not done. This is also why a project site will sit untouched after an announcement.

Approvals and plans are not done before the first dirt is moved. For large projects Disney often makes some use of the fast-track process where design and construction are overlapped. You don’t need a finished design to start site work, you don’t even need a finalized building footprint. Look at some of the South Florida Water Management District permits and you will see some that are just based around a general area and not any specific buildings. Even parts of actual vertical construction can and are overlapped with design.

I didn’t want to dive too far into the industry details to try and explain how the process works so thank you for typing all of that out so I didn’t have to. It’s far more complicated than most people realize.

(Hmmmmm. Yummy yummy ADA bathroom details.)

 

[wdisney9000]

I didn’t want to dive too far into the industry details to try and explain how the process works so thank you for typing all of that out so I didn’t have to. It’s far more complicated than most people realize.

(Hmmmmm. Yummy yummy ADA bathroom details.)

Why you gotta steal his thunder?

 

[Pixieish]

Does it bother anyone else that the O in Tron is slightly taller than the rest of the letters?

I realize this is an old comment, but as someone who was trained in font design, that is one of the main rules you have to follow for a font to be "pretty". If round letters aren't made to curve above their flat-topped counterparts, they look too small. Unfortunately, it looks like this rule was purposefully taken to the extreme for Tron.

 

[Missing20K]

Why you gotta steal his thunder?

 

[LieutLaww]

If you look at the O in the logo it is an identity disc that everyone carries in the movies that is why it is so big.

 

[marni1971]

Does it bother anyone else that the O in Tron is slightly taller than the rest of the letters?

It wasn’t in 1982...

 

[wdwmagic]

Shoot...the episode came out April 1, 2016...
http://podbay.fm/show/452620851/e/1459486860?autostart=1
The name they reference is listed on Disney patents, but it's a rehash of Jim Hill's conversation with him, not an interview.

Sure people shop when they're not in lines (you can only eat so much), but I sounded like that wasn't the primary goal.

The public facing explanation of FastPass origins may be guest satisfaction, but the real reason was to get guests out of lines and spending money.

 

[Bocabear]

Design is far more than just what is seen as a guest. It includes how everything, literally everything, goes together.

Hypothetically, let’s just look at the bathrooms as an example. This won’t be specifically about the bathrooms in the TRON building but I know it does have Cast Member bathrooms and that Chinese and US regulations do not align. Bathrooms are an area with very specific regulations, especially when it comes to accessibility. The following are some of the specific regulations that a wheelchair accessible toilet must meet: height, distance from the wall, clear space around the toilet, location of grab bars and location of the toilet in relation to the stall door.

Let’s say the accessible toilet, which is in a corner, has to move to the other wall. That wall may not be big enough to hold the plumbing for the toilet, so it has to get bigger. If it is a wall mounted toilet then the wall may be getting even bigger still. How does “stuff” get out of the toilet? You have to move those pipes too and they have to maintain a certain slope which means they could be taking up more space. And what is on the other side of that wall that had to get bigger? What if there is other equipment that has certain to be in a certain sized room that just got smaller?

That’s just a few issues that could arise in moving a toilet. The structure needs to be redesigned, or maybe even changed completely, for the local soil and wind loads. The HVAC system needs to be redesigned for the local climate. The electrical systems need to be redesigned for the local power supply. The location of waterproofing on the exterior walls might change based on climate. The type or amount of insulation can change based on the climate and energy codes. Emergency exit doors have to studied to ensure they are in the right locations, maybe more are needed or the exit path needs to change. All of those changes can and do have ripple effects like the toilet example above.

That’s just the legal and due diligence changes. Then there are possible operational or creative changes, even if minor. Ratatouille has an upcoming closure to fix its floor, so it makes sense to not make that mistake twice.


Steel coasters do routinely go from idea to opening day in 18-24 months but they are also not a lot. Most stations are little more than a roof and the maintenance area is a rather simple shed. The coasters themselves are all fabricated offsite and then assembled on site.


When did fabrication of the rooms start?


You are way off.

Look at slide 6 of this presentation:
https://network.aia.org/HigherLogic...tFileKey=25eadd48-6fff-4a2f-ae26-cef8a77d4f6d

Disney very often announces projects shortly after the Feasibility phase. There are exceptions like the Skyliner but it’s quite common, even with TRON. The end of Schematic Design is usually considered to be around 20% completion of design. That’s a lot of design work left to be done after an announcement and even at least some sort of art release. “Working plans” are not done. This is also why a project site will sit untouched after an announcement.

Approvals and plans are not done before the first dirt is moved. For large projects Disney often makes some use of the fast-track process where design and construction are overlapped. You don’t need a finished design to start site work, you don’t even need a finalized building footprint. Look at some of the South Florida Water Management District permits and you will see some that are just based around a general area and not any specific buildings. Even parts of actual vertical construction can and are overlapped with design.

you have to get approvals in order to move the first dirt...you don't start moving dirt until you actually have a plan otherwise where would you even know where to move it?... and yes in general, before a multinational company makes a huge public announcement hyping an attraction and giving a timeline, they have generally already designed said attraction and crunched the numbers... Perhaps there are some design nuances they may change, but the overall is generally set before it is handed over to the press... It was not presented as a blue sky project, but a real project that is opening on a scheduled date... It is also a direct lift which would have shortened the necessary design concept by a great deal of time....Converting the plans from asia to US will not take years to do...and wind load will not cause them to move a toilet... lol The building will be built to withstand hurricanes as I am sure it is already built in Shanghai...they get storms too.

 

[Missing20K]

you have to get approvals in order to move the first dirt...you don't start moving dirt until you actually have a plan otherwise where would you even know where to move it?... and yes in general, before a multinational company makes a huge public announcement hyping an attraction and giving a timeline, they have generally already designed said attraction and crunched the numbers... Perhaps there are some design nuances they may change, but the overall is generally set before it is handed over to the press... It was not presented as a blue sky project, but a real project that is opening on a scheduled date... It is also a direct lift which would have shortened the necessary design concept by a great deal of time....Converting the plans from asia to US will not take years to do...and wind load will not cause them to move a toilet... lol The building will be built to withstand hurricanes as I am sure it is already built in Shanghai...they get storms too.

It’s called phased permitting. You get what is called a “Land Development Permit” in some locales to begin earthwork. Sometimes projects even die during this phase. Dirt is moved. And nothing else ever happens. See 2008 all over the world.

Building Permits can even be phased. One might get a structural shell permit before even finishing interior fit out design work.

Wind loads and toilet accessibility are just two examples of the changes that could be required out of potentially thousands. As another example that’s already been brought up, do you believe Shanghai and Orlando have the same climate? They need completely different HVAC designs and systems. (EDIT: They do in fact have the same climate, so maybe a poor example. Learn something new everyday. . How about another instead. Soil composition is likely to be far different. Requiring different geotechnical engineering.)

Have you converted many construction document sets from metric to imperial? It takes longer than you think, I know from personal experience.

I won’t even get into the time needed to change the Specifications Book.

The change of location is far from inconsequential to construction document production.

 

[Skibum1970]

Design is far more than just what is seen as a guest. It includes how everything, literally everything, goes together.

Hypothetically, let’s just look at the bathrooms as an example. This won’t be specifically about the bathrooms in the TRON building but I know it does have Cast Member bathrooms and that Chinese and US regulations do not align. Bathrooms are an area with very specific regulations, especially when it comes to accessibility. The following are some of the specific regulations that a wheelchair accessible toilet must meet: height, distance from the wall, clear space around the toilet, location of grab bars and location of the toilet in relation to the stall door.

Let’s say the accessible toilet, which is in a corner, has to move to the other wall. That wall may not be big enough to hold the plumbing for the toilet, so it has to get bigger. If it is a wall mounted toilet then the wall may be getting even bigger still. How does “stuff” get out of the toilet? You have to move those pipes too and they have to maintain a certain slope which means they could be taking up more space. And what is on the other side of that wall that had to get bigger? What if there is other equipment that has certain to be in a certain sized room that just got smaller?

That’s just a few issues that could arise in moving a toilet. The structure needs to be redesigned, or maybe even changed completely, for the local soil and wind loads. The HVAC system needs to be redesigned for the local climate. The electrical systems need to be redesigned for the local power supply. The location of waterproofing on the exterior walls might change based on climate. The type or amount of insulation can change based on the climate and energy codes. Emergency exit doors have to studied to ensure they are in the right locations, maybe more are needed or the exit path needs to change. All of those changes can and do have ripple effects like the toilet example above.

That’s just the legal and due diligence changes. Then there are possible operational or creative changes, even if minor. Ratatouille has an upcoming closure to fix its floor, so it makes sense to not make that mistake twice.


Steel coasters do routinely go from idea to opening day in 18-24 months but they are also not a lot. Most stations are little more than a roof and the maintenance area is a rather simple shed. The coasters themselves are all fabricated offsite and then assembled on site.


When did fabrication of the rooms start?


You are way off.

Look at slide 6 of this presentation:
https://network.aia.org/HigherLogic...tFileKey=25eadd48-6fff-4a2f-ae26-cef8a77d4f6d

Disney very often announces projects shortly after the Feasibility phase. There are exceptions like the Skyliner but it’s quite common, even with TRON. The end of Schematic Design is usually considered to be around 20% completion of design. That’s a lot of design work left to be done after an announcement and even at least some sort of art release. “Working plans” are not done. This is also why a project site will sit untouched after an announcement.

Approvals and plans are not done before the first dirt is moved. For large projects Disney often makes some use of the fast-track process where design and construction are overlapped. You don’t need a finished design to start site work, you don’t even need a finalized building footprint. Look at some of the South Florida Water Management District permits and you will see some that are just based around a general area and not any specific buildings. Even parts of actual vertical construction can and are overlapped with design.

Thanks to you and Missing20K for this explanation. It's a great read and never figured moving a toilet could cause so much work. Though I don't know a great deal about it, I find construction to be fascinating.

 

[peter11435]

you have to get approvals in order to move the first dirt...you don't start moving dirt until you actually have a plan otherwise where would you even know where to move it?... and yes in general, before a multinational company makes a huge public announcement hyping an attraction and giving a timeline, they have generally already designed said attraction and crunched the numbers... Perhaps there are some design nuances they may change, but the overall is generally set before it is handed over to the press... It was not presented as a blue sky project, but a real project that is opening on a scheduled date... It is also a direct lift which would have shortened the necessary design concept by a great deal of time....Converting the plans from asia to US will not take years to do...and wind load will not cause them to move a toilet... lol The building will be built to withstand hurricanes as I am sure it is already built in Shanghai...they get storms too.

You’re going to lose this argument because it’s clear you don’t really know much about this subject. What you believe and what is true are not always the same thing.

Disney absolutely does announce projects and begin construction before plans are completed and finialized.

You are way over simplifying/ignoring the differences and changes required when building in different locations especially locations as different as central Florida and China.

Wind load is not what requires toilets to move.

 

[lazyboy97o]

you have to get approvals in order to move the first dirt...you don't start moving dirt until you actually have a plan otherwise where would you even know where to move it?...

Approvals can be specific to a particular task and moving dirt is a task that does not require much in the way of information. Again, go look at some of the South Florida Water Management District filings. There are cases where the approval is for a certain area of impervious surface in a general area but the drawings do not indicate what will compose those impervious surfaces. It could be a building, it could be a parking lot, it does not matter to get approval and there are no requirements to even have any clue as to what will be built. You can get approval to move dirt and prepare a site just so it is available for future building. You also don't have to take anyone's word for it and can do your own research on things like early site work permits and the fast-track process.

and yes in general, before a multinational company makes a huge public announcement hyping an attraction and giving a timeline, they have generally already designed said attraction and crunched the numbers... Perhaps there are some design nuances they may change, but the overall is generally set before it is handed over to the press... It was not presented as a blue sky project, but a real project that is opening on a scheduled date...

You are contradicting yourself because you do not know what you are talking about. I provide a Disney-created document that tells you exactly where in the design process they make a decision. And again, you can do your own research to see the typical correlation between each phase of design and percentage of work completed. A "general" design is a Concept Design, one step past Blue Sky, it is what is approved and it represents less than 20% of the required design work.

It is also a direct lift which would have shortened the necessary design concept by a great deal of time....

Plan stamping is illegal. A clone only removes the bulk of the Blue Sky and Concept Design phases along with some of the Schematic Design Phase. That still leaves the vast majority of the design work to be done.

Converting the plans from asia to US will not take years to do...

Nobody said years, but about a year is not unreasonable. How long does it take you to read 1,000 pages? And that would just be the drawings and not the specifications that are just as long if not longer.

and wind load will not cause them to move a toilet... lol

I did not say that wind loads will require toilets to be moved. They are two of many issues that must be reviewed. The bathrooms must be redesigned because the ones designed for Shanghai do not comply with the ADA Standards for Accessible Design, the Florida Building Code - Accessibility or the EPCOT Accessibility Code.

But since you mentioned it, it is possible for wind loads to cause a toilet to have to be moved. A change in the structural design could create a conflict with the location of plumbing fixtures.

The building will be built to withstand hurricanes as I am sure it is already built in Shanghai...they get storms too.

Again, plan stamping is illegal. Even if the structural design for Shanghai is 100% suitable for its new location (which includes more issues than just hurricanes), the structural engineer must still do independent calculations demonstrating that the design is compliant with all local regulations.