Trespassing third parties

[DryerLintFan]

Jumping off of this because it’s a phrase that’s been used regularly. Disney doesn’t really know anything because Disney isn’t a sentient being capable of thought. People who work for Disney knew but that doesn’t necessarily make it official policy.

Outside of certain circumstances, I imagine authority to ban people from Walt Disney World is not very widespread. Since this has a legal component, it seems appropriate to assume that you’d also want concurrence from at least someone on the legal team with similar authority. So it’s not so much whether someone at Disney knew but if the right someone at Disney knew. It also seems doubtful that this is someone’s full time job so it makes sense that not only would the right people have to know but there would have to be enough of an issue to undertake the task ahead of others.

I’d be willing to bet this is similar to how Walmart acts with shoplifters. They’ve been watching these key players for a while, building up their case.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Yes. The benefit is - they get all the reservations (genie+, lightning lane, dining, etc.) taken care of and guided through the park so they get to do everything they want without having to do any planning.

that’s what tour guides do.

And there's no way to guarantee "no waiting in line" that way. Redirecting customer spending like that is not allowed and that'sexactlywhat these guides did - took potential VIP Tour customers away from Disney for their own benefit. There's no arguing that fact.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

And there's no way to guarantee "no waiting in line" that way. Redirecting customer spending like that is not allowed and that'sexactlywhat these guides did - took potential VIP Tour customers away from Disney for their own benefit. There's no arguing that fact.

What company was / is guaranteeing that?

Lightning lane and genie+ (and previously fast pass) is “skipping the line”

 

[lazyboy97o]

I’d be willing to bet this is similar to how Walmart acts with shoplifters. They’ve been watching these key players for a while, building up their case.

Given how hesitant Disney can be about enforcing rules they likely were building a case. This is also likely part of why they did this at the park entrance with clients present because that means they were caught in the act. They were dealing with the unauthorized activity right then and there as it was occurring, they weren’t sending deputies to someone’s house after the fact (Imagine those headlines!). Doing multiple in quick succession also helps avoid things like claims of discrimination.

 

[Splash4eva]

No, I understand perfectly. I know plenty of people who ask me for help with their trip planning or expect my wife and I to handle all aspects of planning for a group trip. The issue that you are seemingly missing is that a legitimate travel agent would arrange for a Disney VIP Tour for their clients rather than charging them to provide a half-assed version themselves. But thanks for assuming that A. I have no money and B. I couldn't possibly understand the mindset of those who do have money when it comes to planning a vacation. I guess only Wall Street people can understand why someone would try to justify deceiving clients for their own benefit - and make no mistake, that exactly what went on here based on the experiences of your colleagues that you shared earlier.

Noone was deceived at all lol. Listen i have DAS & was a FP power user/Genie+ & yes i was able to limit my downtime between rides to a minimal. They wanted a service & paid for it. Didnt want to deal with it & actually had a “vacation” as opposed to most of us who have to deal with all this.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

What company was / is guaranteeing that?

Lightning lane and genie+ (and previously fast pass) is “skipping the line”

1. None of them would be dumb enough to put that guarantee on their website (certainly not if they want to avoid potential lawsuits from customers).

2. Paying for a VIP Tour that charges several hundred dollars per hour is worthless without the implication that lines will be skipped. Even if they are truly only booking G+ and ILLs within the rules, the fact that they charged an additional fee for it is a blatant violation of the rules. And charging hundreds of dollars per hour is so excessive as to be abusive. So the best defense for their behavior is that they abused unwitting customers for financial gain. Not much of a defense.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Being an "over-enthusiastic fan" doesn't justify operating a business on private property without permission. Nobody should ever assume that it's okay to do that regardless of their fandom level. It truly is common sense.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I searched the “Ear For Each Other” Facebook group of furloughed cast members providing services on property after Covid. I in no way shape or form saw it as some kind of illegal thing - as a mom in a non legal field that never would have occurred to me. If you work in law or in a business where there’s a lot of fine legal print to deal with, ok, your mileage may vary. But I assumed that Disney gave implicit support to these cast members.

The fact that there is no way to legitimately offer line skipping is all the evidence needed to know that these guides weren't operating honestly. They either overcharged customers for acting like a walking talking tip book or they broke the rules to get them the line skipping advantages that VIP Tours get. Either way, they redirected business away from Disney and to themselves.

This is probably where we agree most. Again, none of us has the full story, but the apparent line skipping does suggest that they were engaged in something that wasn’t above board.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Noone was deceived at all lol. Listen i have DAS & was a FP power user/Genie+ & yes i was able to limit my downtime between rides to a minimal. They wanted a service & paid for it. Didnt want to deal with it & actually had a “vacation” as opposed to most of us who have to deal with all this.

Earlier you said that these colleagues of yours had no idea that Disney offered a VIP Tour when they booked with whatever 3rd party tour guide they used. You also said money was no object. Now you're saying that they weren't deceived when they boomed a cheaper tour that provided less benefits. Which is it? If money was no object and they had been informed of the plaid VIP Tour, then that's what they would have booked. So they trusted their guide to give them useful and accurate information (otherwise why use them?) and important information that would have improved their trip was withheld. Sounds like deception to me.

 

[Splash4eva]

Earlier you said that these colleagues of yours had no idea that Disney offered a VIP Tour when they booked with whatever 3rd party tour guide they used. You also said money was no object. Now you're saying that they weren't deceived when they boomed a cheaper tour that provided less benefits. Which is it? If money was no object and they had been informed of the plaid VIP Tour, then that's what they would have booked. So they trusted their guide to give them useful and accurate information (otherwise why use them?) and important information that would have improved their trip was withheld. Sounds like deception to me.

It was a service they all used the same guy. Its called loyalty and trusting someone who had done then right plenty of times before. Im not sure what is the issue. They didnt want to wait on lines. Didnt care about money. The same person basically took care of them when they went at different times. I guess if its not broke dont fix it

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Even if they are truly only booking G+ and ILLs within the rules, the fact that they charged an additional fee for it is a blatant violation of the rules. And charging hundreds of dollars per hour is so excessive as to be abusive. So the best defense for their behavior is that they abused unwitting customers for financial gain. Not much of a defense.

It’s not against the rules to accept money to help plan a Disney trip correct? They can still provide the same planning services and charge for it off property.

 

[Bullseye1967]

Disney provides that to plenty of other travel agents, too. It doesn't mean Disney is aware that they are breaking their rules and are okay with it. Also, it's very possible that someone at WDW did indeed turn a blind eye to him for a while based on having worked with him previously, but managers come and go and anyone who knows they are breaking a rule can't assume that every new manager will just shrug and say, "If the last manager allowed it then it must be fine." You know how Ramon and all of these other businesses could have protected themselves? By either getting corporate approval to operate on property BEFORE starting a business based on violating the terms of admission or by sticking to doing strictly the travel agent and pre-visit planning portion of their services. There's still a market for "Disney expert" travel agents that can easily thrive within the rules.

Your theories keep changing. You went from "Disney didn't know" to "CM's knew but were allowing it" to "Managers were allowing it, but then a different manager didn't". Ramon is not a travel agent. He is a theme park tour guide, so your statement that Disney gives perks to travel agents doesn't hold water. Disney give some, or in his case many extras to people who they feel are beneficial to WDW. These people include travel agents, media folks, vloggers, and yes tour guides. This is not something done by a manager. It is done by corporate. A manager didn't say, hey, Ramon seems like a nice guy. Let's give him a seven day cruise. Someone in charge, after giving Ramon multiple free stays at different resorts said "Ramon has a large and wealthy clientele, I bet If we give him a cruise or two he may steer them that direction". I am in no way saying Disney didn't have the right to do what they did. I am just stating that there is such a thing as implied consent. If Disney didn't want Ramon to push their products through his business, then why would he get all these extras? Disney was at one point very much in favor of these tour guides. Yes, in a very small way they undercut Disney VIP tours but it is like comparing apples to oranges. Most people do VIP tours for front of lines access. People use a service like Ramon's for a total vacation experience. Ramon does a very different service than a VIP tour. A VIP tour gives you X number of hours of front of line access to rides plus some Disney trivia info. Ramon offers services for you for your entire stay. Let's say you were coming for Christmas. He would go to your resort, set up a tree and decorate your room. He plans each day including meals. If you are going to Sea World, Universal, or Cape Canaveral, he is with you at all times. There is a big difference in what is offered.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I in no way shape or form saw it as some kind of illegal thing - as a mom in a non legal field that never would have occurred to me. If you work in law or in a business where there’s a lot of fine legal print to deal with, ok, your mileage may vary.

This isn’t an issue of some weird legal technicalities. Have you ever thought you could just go set up your own kiosk at the mall? That you could just offer lessons at the local skating rink? Your own fitness classes at the gym?

 

[Chip Chipperson]

It was a service they all used the same guy. Its called loyalty and trusting someone who had done then right plenty of times before. Im not sure what is the issue. They didnt want to wait on lines. Didnt care about money. The same person basically took care of them when they went at different times. I guess if its not broke dont fix it

How they heard about the guide is irrelevant to the subject. Loyalty and trust may exist, but they were "earned" through deception. Deception isn't justified just because a satisfied customer didn’t know they were deceived. If they were happy with this guide, imagine what they would have felt about a true VIP Tour had they known about it.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

It’s not against the rules to accept money to help plan a Disney trip correct? They can still provide the same planning services and charge for it off property.

Thank you. That's the point many have been trying to make you see. The tips for how to get the best trip for their wants and needs was never the issue. It's the tours operating on WDW property that's the problem.

 

[Marionnette]

Do we really know if Disney didn't give them a warning? (not that they are required to) There is a well-known vlogger couple of which one of them started working as one of these tour guides. About 4 or 5 weeks ago-ish, they suddenly stopped their regular posts and videos and have been very cryptic about the situation. It may have nothing to do with this banning but the timing is very suspect. Could it be they were warned and many just disregarded? It's much more acceptable these days to claim victimhood than to actually take responsibility for one's actions having a direct role in the less than desirable outcome.

I think I know which couple you're referring to. Two weeks ago they canceled all of their YouTube memberships and posted a cryptic message to the community. There haven't been any videos or messages since then. If it is them, they made an unfortunate choice. Especially since they moved to Orlando specifically in order to fulfill their Disney dream. Their vlogs were popular. Was it necessary to begin acting as a 3rd-party guide? Incidentally, the 3rd-party VIP guide service that this couple links to on their website has immediately ceased operation.

 

[Splash4eva]

How they heard about the guide is irrelevant to the subject. Loyalty and trust may exist, but they were "earned" through deception. Deception isn't justified just because a satisfied customer didn’t know they were deceived. If they were happy with this guide, imagine what they would have felt about a true VIP Tour had they known about it.

Again not sure where there was deception lol. They didnt want to wait on any lines didnt want to book any meals during the day. They didnt. The kids. The wives. The family were happy win win. They could care less about Disney tidbits that an official tour guide may provide. Its crazy to me how you keep going that people i know & are friends with were deceived when im clearly telling you they werent & couldnt be happier with what they paid & received. Wow!!!!

 

[nickys]

It’s not against the rules to accept money to help plan a Disney trip correct? They can still provide the same planning services and charge for it off property.

Yes. And some TAs do actually charge a fee for help in planning a trip.

The issue with the guides who have been served with trespass notices appears to be that they were charging clients for a private VIP tour, undercutting a service that Disney provides themselves with their VIP Plaid tours.

Former CMs from Ears to Eachother generally aren’t replicating services that Disney themselves offer. None-the-less Disney could decide they don’t like some of the options offered and ask them to desist. But since they are not entering the parks I guess it’s less likely that would happen.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Have you ever thought you could just go set up your own kiosk at the mall? That you could just offer lessons at the local skating rink? Your own fitness classes at the gym?

do gymns not allow personal trainers? I thought that was a thing but I wouldn’t know haha.

 

[nickys]

Again not sure where there was deception lol. They didnt want to wait on any lines didnt want to book any meals during the day. They didnt. The kids. The wives. The family were happy win win. They could care less about Disney tidbits that an official tour guide may provide. Its crazy to me how you keep going that people i know & are friends with were deceived when im clearly telling you they werent & couldnt be happier with what they paid & received. Wow!!!!

If you know them, can you ask how they skipped the lines for rides? Or were they clueless how it happened?

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Your theories keep changing. You went from "Disney didn't know" to "CM's knew but were allowing it" to "Managers were allowing it, but then a different manager didn't". Ramon is not a travel agent. He is a theme park tour guide, so your statement that Disney gives perks to travel agents doesn't hold water. Disney give some, or in his case many extras to people who they feel are beneficial to WDW. These people include travel agents, media folks, vloggers, and yes tour guides. This is not something done by a manager. It is done by corporate. A manager didn't say, hey, Ramon seems like a nice guy. Let's give him a seven day cruise. Someone in charge, after giving Ramon multiple free stays at different resorts said "Ramon has a large and wealthy clientele, I bet If we give him a cruise or two he may steer them that direction". I am in no way saying Disney didn't have the right to do what they did. I am just stating that there is such a thing as implied consent. If Disney didn't want Ramon to push their products through his business, then why would he get all these extras? Disney was at one point very much in favor of these tour guides. Yes, in a very small way they undercut Disney VIP tours but it is like comparing apples to oranges. Most people do VIP tours for front of lines access. People use a service like Ramon's for a total vacation experience. Ramon does a very different service than a VIP tour. A VIP tour gives you X number of hours of front of line access to rides plus some Disney trivia info. Ramon offers services for you for your entire stay. Let's say you were coming for Christmas. He would go to your resort, set up a tree and decorate your room. He plans each day including meals. If you are going to Sea World, Universal, or Cape Canaveral, he is with you at all times. There is a big difference in what is offered.

No, my theory hasn't changed. There is a difference between some CMs knowing what's going on and someone high enough up the food chain to stop it being aware of it and who is doing it.

As for Ramon, if he's not a travel agent as you claim, why does his website state, "We are your Disney Certified Travel Advisors, Personal Concierges and State of Florida Licensed Sellers of Travel." What an odd thing for a not-a-travel-agent to claim. That's a direct quote of the 2nd sentence on the company website's home page.