Trespassing third parties

[Chip Chipperson]

You need to cool it okay. Be respectful to the people you are interacting with.

Who was I disrespecting with this post? 3rd party tour guides with less than a full brain?

 

[Splash4eva]

I'm really not sure what your point is. That you friends enjoyed themselves? Great! Nobody disputes that. That doesn't justify the unauthorized tour guides, though. First you said mo ey was no object. Now you switch to "why pay more?" All I've gotten from your posts is "the ends justifies the means."

When did i ever justify the tour guides? I dont think ive ever said. Good for them. All i have said was this. Imo there was NO way Disney was unaware what was going on and if they werent dammm i feel bad for park management

 

[nickys]

Lessons at a skating rink or training sessions at a gym? Yeah, depending on the location I might assume that would be allowed.

And in both those cases you would be wrong.

The coaches / personal trainers would either be employed by the establishment in question or would have a contract whereby they would pay a percentage of their earnings to the establishment.

Joe Public cannot just turn up and offer lessons.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

When did i ever justify the tour guides? I dont think ive ever said. Good for them. All i have said was this. Imo there was NO way Disney was unaware what was going on and if they werent dammm i feel bad for park management

Entirely possible that signals got crossed but your initial response to me was replying to my post that was a response to someone else's bad attempt at justifying the guides' businesses, so it seemed like you were on the side of "let the guides do business in the parks." If that's not the case, then cool.

 

[Drdcm]

Who was I disrespecting with this post? 3rd party tour guides with less than a full brain?

I apologize. I reviewed your posts from the last few pages and you were not one of the folks throwing insults. I think the reason I assumed so is because you obviously have very strong feelings about this and your tone is very concrete and dismissive. I will delete the post.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I apologize. I reviewed your posts from the last few pages and you were not one of the folks throwing insults. I think the reason I assumed so is because you obviously have very strong feelings about this and your tone is very concrete and dismissive. I will delete the post.

No worries. There are lots of posts and posters in this thread. Remembering who said what 5 pages ago isn't easy to keep track of.

 

[Drdcm]

And in both those cases you would be wrong.

The coaches / personal trainers would either be employed by the establishment in question or would have a contract whereby they would pay a percentage of their earnings to the establishment.

Joe Public cannot just turn up and offer lessons.

Sure you can… in some places. City pools and skating rings are an example of where this MAY be allowed. Other smaller gyms often cater to self employed personal trainers as well. This isn’t a super common practice, but there are a lot of generalizations being thrown around and in reality it kind of depends ultimately on if permission is granted.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Sure you can… in some places. City pools and skating rings are an example of where this MAY be allowed. Other smaller gyms often cater to self employed personal trainers as well. This isn’t a super common practice, but there are a lot of generalizations being thrown around and in reality it kind of depends ultimately on if permission is granted.

Sure, municipal pools MIGHT allow it, but most municipalities would be concerned about liability insurance if an instructor's student drowned or was injured so it's not likely that most municipalities would allow it without permission, just to cover themselves from a liability standpoint. Even if some do allow it, that's different than a private business because we're back to talking about public spaces so it's apples an oranges.

 

[DisneyHead123]

And in both those cases you would be wrong.

The coaches / personal trainers would either be employed by the establishment in question or would have a contract whereby they would pay a percentage of their earnings to the establishment.

Joe Public cannot just turn up and offer lessons.

I looked into (edit, wrong name) Sunsational Swim for my son this summer, and they operate out of private pools. They don’t stand in the middle of the pool advertising, but you arrange to meet them at your pool. A quick Google search tells me that private personal trainers are readily available who will work with clients at their gym. That doesn’t mean every single gym allows them, of course, but it’s not like some unheard of thing.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Sure you can… in some places. City pools and skating rings are an example of where this MAY be allowed. Other smaller gyms often cater to self employed personal trainers as well. This isn’t a super common practice, but there are a lot of generalizations being thrown around and in reality it kind of depends ultimately on if permission is granted.

A city pool is a public facility so it would operate under different rules than a private facility.

Many places utilize independent contractors as their trainers, coaches, etc. That’s probably the default in most places because it lets you have a wide variety of services and price points without getting bogged down in evaluating, scheduling, etc. Some places may well just let anyone show up but they probably won’t for long or might not be the best run places as there is liability that they risk assuming for just letting anyone show up and engage in instruction.

That very last clause though is the crux and key. Permission. The specifics of the arrangements can vary but the need for permission is near universal and absolutely should be assumed when using private property.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I looked into Swim Kids for my son this summer, and they operate out of private pools. They don’t stand in the middle of the pool advertising, but you arrange to meet them at your pool. A quick Google search tells me that private personal trainers are readily available who will work with clients at their gym. That doesn’t mean every single gym allows them, of course, but it’s not like some unheard of thing.

Again, this is done with prior permission. Go try to find the private neighborhood pool that allows anyone to just show up and give swimming. Go see how many gyms you can find that just let anyone show and do personal training.

 

[Bullseye1967]

No, my theory hasn't changed. There is a difference between some CMs knowing what's going on and someone high enough up the food chain to stop it being aware of it and who is doing it.

As for Ramon, if he's not a travel agent as you claim, why does his website state, "We are your Disney Certified Travel Advisors, Personal Concierges and State of Florida Licensed Sellers of Travel." What an odd thing for a not-a-travel-agent to claim. That's a direct quote of the 2nd sentence on the company website's home page.

He is what is stated. A travel or vacation consultant. He acts as a concierge. Certain people of wealth like to have someone hand hold them through the whole process. Could they buy one of many guides on how to do WDW. Of course they could, but they choose not to. They would rather put up money and have someone walk them through every day of their vacation. Disney does not offer such a service. He does partner with several travel agencies, but it is not primarily what he does. Who do you think authorized multiple staycations and cruises for him if not someone "higher up"? Do you think a CM working Space mountain suddenly decided to invite him to all the media previews? I was his plus one at the media preview for AoA. This is not the case of some low level CM looking the other way or him slipping through the cracks. They sought him out to ask for him to come to promotions to sell their products.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Again, this is done with prior permission. Go try to find the private neighborhood pool that allows anyone to just show up and give swimming. Go see how many gyms you can find that just let anyone show and do personal training.

It’s not done with prior permission that I’m aware of. If the pool explicitly forbids it, they don’t work there, but it’s not like they hammer out a contract with each pool.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It’s not done with prior permission that I’m aware of. If the pool explicitly forbids it, they don’t work there, but it’s not like they hammer out a contract with each pool.

What’s done without prior permission? Swim Kids? If it’s the business that pops up first when I search (swimkids.us is their website) then they mostly have their own facilities with one done at a YMCA and they’re most definitely not just showing up at the Y to give lessons without an agreement in place.

 

[lazyboy97o]

He is what is stated. A travel or vacation consultant. He acts as a concierge. Certain people of wealth like to have someone hand hold them through the whole process. Could they buy one of many guides on how to do WDW. Of course they could, but they choose not to. They would rather put up money and have someone walk them through every day of their vacation. Disney does not offer such a service. He does partner with several travel agencies, but it is not primarily what he does. Who do you think authorized multiple staycations and cruises for him if not someone "higher up"? Do you think a CM working Space mountain suddenly decided to invite him to all the media previews? I was his plus one at the media preview for AoA. This is not the case of some low level CM looking the other way or him slipping through the cracks. They sought him out to ask for him to come to promotions to sell their products.

Inviting someone to a media event or staycation would likely be with marketing or a similar such team. Why would that department, even its executives, have any need for the authority to issue bans?

 

[Lilofan]

Again, this is done with prior permission. Go try to find the private neighborhood pool that allows anyone to just show up and give swimming. Go see how many gyms you can find that just let anyone show and do personal training.

Anytime Fitness open 24/7 with minimal staffing during the day, rest of day and all night no staffing , just members working out some with their own personal trainers. See no evil , hear no evil, speak no evil.

 

[Drdcm]

Sure, municipal pools MIGHT allow it, but most municipalities would be concerned about liability insurance if an instructor's student drowned or was injured so it's not likely that most municipalities would allow it without permission, just to cover themselves from a liability standpoint. Even if some do allow it, that's different than a private business because we're back to talking about public spaces so it's apples an oranges.

I realize it’s apples and oranges. My point was... “it depends” on that specific example.

I think people are arguing about different things now. For example, I was purely pointing out that @DisneyHead123 wasn’t necessarily incorrect in thinking you might find a third party instructor for ice skating or swim lessons. @lazyboy97o is trying to point out that you can’t just show up without permission, not that it doesn’t happen anywhere.

It depends on contracts and permission and setting. Disney is private, has terms of conditions, and the third party your groups most likely violated that. We agree on that.

 

[DisneyHead123]

What’s done without prior permission? Swim Kids? If it’s the business that pops up first when I search (swimkids.us is their website) then they mostly have their own facilities with one done at a YMCA and they’re most definitely not just showing up at the Y to give lessons without an agreement in place.

I went back and edited, I looked into a few places. It was Sunsational Swim.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

He is what is stated. A travel or vacation consultant. He acts as a concierge. Certain people of wealth like to have someone hand hold them through the whole process. Could they buy one of many guides on how to do WDW. Of course they could, but they choose not to. They would rather put up money and have someone walk them through every day of their vacation. Disney does not offer such a service. He does partner with several travel agencies, but it is not primarily what he does. Who do you think authorized multiple staycations and cruises for him if not someone "higher up"? Do you think a CM working Space mountain suddenly decided to invite him to all the media previews? I was his plus one at the media preview for AoA. This is not the case of some low level CM looking the other way or him slipping through the cracks. They sought him out to ask for him to come to promotions to sell their products.

He is (or was, more accurately at this point) a Disney Certified Travel Agent. He says so on his own website. That's why he was invited to those events (along with enty of other similar travel agents). His tours played no role in that. If Disney was okay with his tours and seeing some sort of benefit from them then they wouldn't have banned him (without warning according to him).

He bragged in the article about bringing in "high-end" customers who spend money. Well, as a Certified Disney Travel Agent, it was his responsibility to know that he shouldn't have been trying to undercut Disney's services by offering his own unauthorized version. He should have informed them about the VIP Tours and let them decide whether or not they wanted to pay for it. If not, he could have offered tips, tricks, and services within the rules. He could have offered to try to book their ILLs and first G+ selections at 7 AM if they wanted to sleep in and not have to plan as much. Simply saying, "My clients ate expensive meals instead of hot dogs," is not a valid justification for his actions. He broke the rules both as a passholder and a Disney-approved travel agent.

 

[Drdcm]

A Reddit search shows a lot of these guys just keep track of the kids and bags and strollers and stuff while people enjoy the parks. I wonder if they’re cracking down on that type of service as well.