News Toy Story Mania to be available via standby queue ahead of entrance relocation

[Goofyernmost]

But that's perception, not actual wait times. If an attraction has a capacity of 1500 pph, and 750 come from standby and 750 from FP+, and say an additional 100 guests per hour want to ride, that forms the standby line. Now if we get rid of FP+, those 750 people are now displaced and in standby. So we now have 1500 pph in standby and 100 in line, because those FP+ people don't just go away. They're now in the standby line, so they add to that line. The only three scenarios where I see getting rid of FP+ decreasing standby wait times is:

1. Some people who had FP+ may decide to forgo the attraction altogether
2. There is an actual time penalty to merging, which I'm not convinced of yet (but could be if presented the evidence)
3. Less popular attractions that people make FP+ reservations for in order to simply fill out their 3. This to me is the most credible and is less an issue with the idea of a FastPass line and more with the current implementation of FP+ that sets an artificial benchmark of 3.

I'd love to be proven wrong and to see the math that shows that FP+ actually does increase standby times....

It's easy to hate on FP+ and blame it for all the crowd woes... And that may be the case, but I'd like to see the data, as one thing I've learned in life is that anecdotal evidence and conventional wisdom is often wrong.

Although what you are saying is true, the problem is not capacity it is much more personal then that. If you are in a regular line without any FP line and you are the 750th person in that line and you will be the 750th person to get on the ride. It's all about first come, first served. Now be the 750th person in that same line that also has a Fastpass line and you could conceivably be the 1500th person to get on the ride. Fastpass only benefits those that would otherwise be behind you in that particular line.

It isn't even without knowledge of things that we have known since our school days. Without being prompted we would get upset if someone cut in front of us in line. It is an antisocial thing. Why is it we get upset if we see someone cutting in front of the line we are in, yet, call it Fastpass and all those instincts of how things should be are tampered with. It is a normal reaction and Disney (of all places) should be aware of the basic human emotion. All they focused on was that one would be elated to get to go ahead of a lot of people it makes them feel superior or special. However, the rest of humanity standing in the heat, not moving have that other emotion of feeling like they aren't important or in the least, special. It just is wrong. It started so many bad feelings and anger that it was no longer fun to go. It is a current way of life in a theme park, but, unlike before instead of a humorous reaction it is a negative experience.

The basic fact is that unless you have one in your hand, Fastpass has done more to hold down the enjoyment of a Disney Theme Park experience and given people more time to contemplate the decline in quality of experience.

 

[neoshinok]

But that's perception, not actual wait times. If an attraction has a capacity of 1500 pph, and 750 come from standby and 750 from FP+, and say an additional 100 guests per hour want to ride, that forms the standby line. Now if we get rid of FP+, those 750 people are now displaced and in standby. So we now have 1500 pph in standby and 100 in line, because those FP+ people don't just go away. They're now in the standby line, so they add to that line. The only three scenarios where I see getting rid of FP+ decreasing standby wait times is:

1. Some people who had FP+ may decide to forgo the attraction altogether
2. There is an actual time penalty to merging, which I'm not convinced of yet (but could be if presented the evidence)
3. Less popular attractions that people make FP+ reservations for in order to simply fill out their 3. This to me is the most credible and is less an issue with the idea of a FastPass line and more with the current implementation of FP+ that sets an artificial benchmark of 3.

I'd love to be proven wrong and to see the math that shows that FP+ actually does increase standby times....

It's easy to hate on FP+ and blame it for all the crowd woes... And that may be the case, but I'd like to see the data, as one thing I've learned in life is that anecdotal evidence and conventional wisdom is often wrong.

I guess you're addressing other comments in the thread or just didn't comprehend my comment. As I said, regardless of the wait time, a queue moving at the rides full capacity is a better experience than standby moving at 1/4 speed while fastpass takes up 3/4 give or take. It is perception because it is perceptible.

 

[MisterPenguin]

If FP makes all the attraction have long lines, then, if there were no FP, where would all those people go? Remember, all the rides now have a lengthy wait because of FP, so, if there were no FP, you then have to account for what they'd be doing instead.

Would they all line up for Space Mountain making it a six hour wait so you can just walk on to Haunted Mansion? Would they all be sitting in Main Street eating cotton candy so you can just walk onto PotC?

 

[mikejs78]

If you are in a regular line without any FP line and you are the 750th person in that line and you will be the 750th person to get on the ride. It's all about first come, first served. Now be the 750th person in that same line that also has a Fastpass line and you could conceivably be the 1500th person to get on the ride.

Except that without FastPass, you'd get in line and be the 1500th person in line, not the 750th, because the 750 FP people need to go somewhere. It changes the distribution not the actual line.

Without being prompted we would get upset if someone cut in front of us in line. It is an antisocial thing. Why is it we get upset if we see someone cutting in front of the line we are in, yet, call it Fastpass and all those instincts of how things should be are tampered with.

Outside of Disney, if you go to a restaurant without a reservation, and someone who has a reservation gets seated in front of you, do you get upset? I don't because I didn't make a reservation. However I'm more likely to make a reservation.

It's all in personal opinion. For me personally, FP has made Disney a better experience. I know how it works and I can make it work very well for me. I'd be unhappy if it went away, although I wouldn't mind if they just made it day-of with the app, like MaxPass at Disneyland.

 

[mikejs78]

There are a couple of factors to consider here:

1. What percent of people with FP now, would ride TSMM even without the FP?
2. At what time of day would they ride it?

I think for (1) we all have rides that we only go on if the wait is under 20 minutes (a "balking constraint"). FP increases the demand for some rides because it eliminates balking constraints for lots of people.

The other thing FP does is spread guest arrivals out over the entire day, in relatively even numbers. TSMM should be allowing around 103 people into the FP line every 5 minutes or so. Without FP, guests might just go to TSMM when they arrive at the park. You'd expect to see higher wait times in the late morning, then, because that's when most people arrive.

It's also possible that FP is keeping people in the park a little longer than they'd stay otherwise. If your normal inclination would be to leave the Studios around 3 pm, but you've got a TSMM FP for 4:30 p.m., you'd probably stay the extra 90 minutes.

Make some assumptions around those things and we could probably work through the math.

So you may see somewhat shorter lines because of the balk factor (although how much of that is the case for an atrraction like TSMM is debatable), but you may see longer lines at peak times of day and shorter lines at other times. Is that right?

 

[Casper Gutman]

If FP makes all the attraction have long lines, then, if there were no FP, where would all those people go? Remember, all the rides now have a lengthy wait because of FP, so, if there were no FP, you then have to account for what they'd be doing instead.

Would they all line up for Space Mountain making it a six hour wait so you can just walk on to Haunted Mansion? Would they all be sitting in Main Street eating cotton candy so you can just walk onto PotC?

My understanding is that FastPass multiplies people. If you are standing in one line and have three fast passes, you are, in effect, standing in three lines, one physical, three virtual. You will be able to walk up to those fast passed attractions and move in front of people waiting in the standby line just as though you had been waiting in a physical line.

Now, this is a gross oversimplification of a very complicated phenomenon, and someone more adept at mathematics than I am might be able to poke it full of holes. But the basic idea - that a system whereby each guest waits in a line, rides a ride, and then waits in another line is going to have shorter waits than one in which guests wait in a line AND have spaces held for them in three other lines, seems sound.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Except that without FastPass, you'd get in line and be the 1500th person in line, not the 750th, because the 750 FP people need to go somewhere. It changes the distribution not the actual line.

Yes, but those 750 FP people are now in a single line instead of being in four. Theoretically, under the current system, those 750 FP people could be the same 750 people in four different lines at the same time. Thus Mr. No-FP is faced with four 750 person lines instead of one.

 

[mikejs78]

Yes, but those 750 FP people are now in a single line instead of being in four. Theoretically, under the current system, those 750 FP people could be the same 750 people in four different lines at the same time. Thus Mr. No-FP is faced with four 750 person lines instead of one.

But that doesn't change the hourly capacity of the lines and how long you will wait.

 

[Casper Gutman]

But that doesn't change the hourly capacity of the lines and how long you will wait.

Of course it changes how long you wait in the standby line if several FPers are allowed in for every standby guest. The hourly capacity is being filled by people who weren't physically in line.

Think about a theoretical quartet of non-FP using siblings, Timothy, Titus, Trixie, and Tina Spudmangler. Each sibling gets in a two-hour standby line for a different attraction at MGM - ToT, TSMM, RnRC, and ST. Ahead of Tina in the standby line for ST is FP user Rhinelander Crank. Rhinelander, who got his FPs months in advance, rides ST and then, over the next two hours, uses FPs to ride ToT, TSMM, and RnRC. He rides each ride before the Spudmanglers, who have spent the time in stand-by. In essence, Timothy, Titus, Trixie, and Tina have all been in line behind Rhinelander, despite the fact that he is only one person.

 

[mikejs78]

You will be able to walk up to those fast passed attractions and move in front of people waiting in the standby line just as though you had been waiting in a physical line.

That doesn't seem right. You only have one active FastPass at a time. But even if your assertion is right it doesn't change the # of people in the park vs the capacity of the attractions. It just distributes things a bit differently or at different times. Capacity is a constant. So is # of guests. The only variables are, if there were no FP, what would the balk factor be at some of these rides, and would the lines potentially be shorter at some times of day but longer at other times?

 

[mikejs78]

Of course it changes how long you wait in the standby line if several FPers are allowed in for every standby guest. The hourly capacity is being filled by people who weren't physically in line.

Think about a theoretical quartet of non-FP using siblings, Timothy, Titus, Trixie, and Tina Spudmangler. Each sibling gets in a two-hour standby line for a different attraction at MGM - ToT, TSMM, RnRC, and ST. Ahead of Tina in the standby line for ST is FP user Rhinelander Crank. Rhinelander, who got his FPs months in advance, rides ST and then, over the next two hours, uses FPs to ride ToT, TSMM, and RnRC. He rides each ride before the Spudmanglers, who have spent the time in stand-by. In essence, Timothy, Titus, Trixie, and Tina have all been in line behind Rhinelander, despite the fact that he is only one person.

But if there were no FP, the line would still be two hours because all the Rhinelander Cranks are now adding to the length of the standby line.

 

[marni1971]

If FP makes all the attraction have long lines, then, if there were no FP, where would all those people go? Remember, all the rides now have a lengthy wait because of FP, so, if there were no FP, you then have to account for what they'd be doing instead.

Would they all line up for Space Mountain making it a six hour wait so you can just walk on to Haunted Mansion? Would they all be sitting in Main Street eating cotton candy so you can just walk onto PotC?

Further to the excellent post #47 above, MyMagic was partly designed so not to have to build anything else. There was no back up plan for accounting what they’d be doing instead because they’d have a Fastpass for SSE. Or HISTA. Or LWTL. Or Imag.

The chosen route didn’t work as planned. They are having to build more capacity anyway.

 

[mikejs78]

Further to the excellent post #47 above, MyMagic was partly designed so not to have to build anything else. There was no back up plan for accounting what they’d be doing instead because they’d have a Fastpass for SSE. Or HISTA. Or LWTL. Or Imag.

The chosen route didn’t work as planned. They are having to build more capacity anyway.

See that makes a bit of sense to me, but #47 doesn't. The idea of holding place in line with For doesn't change ride capacity. It just redistributes it.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Except that without FastPass, you'd get in line and be the 1500th person in line, not the 750th, because the 750 FP people need to go somewhere. It changes the distribution not the actual line.

Outside of Disney, if you go to a restaurant without a reservation, and someone who has a reservation gets seated in front of you, do you get upset? I don't because I didn't make a reservation. However I'm more likely to make a reservation.

It's all in personal opinion. For me personally, FP has made Disney a better experience. I know how it works and I can make it work very well for me. I'd be unhappy if it went away, although I wouldn't mind if they just made it day-of with the app, like MaxPass at Disneyland.

So you are saying that all those 1500 people show up ahead of you? What did you do, oversleep? Stop to tie your shoe? Why would you be the 1500th. There will only be one of those. If you recall all those in the Fastpass line got there after you did. So you will still get in there unless you are either the 750th now or the 1500th then. Without FP you didn't ever get in line that was that long (they weren't anyway) you went to the next one and came back when that line was shorter. Nothing could be simpler. You didn't have to figure out 60 days out what you wanted to ride (especially difficult if this is ones first visit and don't really know what they want to see yet. The fact is the 1500th never was in a line very long because it kept moving. You are acting like it is stagnant and non-moving. Even if you were the 1500th you would probably have entered the line almost at the end of that hour. Plus within seconds the person behind you would become that number for a few seconds.

The difference between a theme park attraction and a restaurant is that you haven't paid in advance for your meal. They didn't reserve a spot in the park, they just happened in long after you got there and in a restaurant you also had the opportunity to get a reservation and if you couldn't you didn't stand around for hours waiting for a place to sit, you went someplace else before you invested all that time or you are OK with waiting. You don't have that option if you want to see anything besides the 3 or 4 you are given.

The new system is far better then the old FP system, but, you are kidding yourself if you think that you got through the parks quicker because you had those few FP's. You will more then lose that time standing in line for other attractions that you didn't have a FP for that have extended times because someone else did have one. Having done both no FP era and both FP era's nothing, but, nothing is gained in time. The only thing that increased is frustration connected with the places that you didn't/couldn't get a FP.

 

[mikejs78]

So you are saying that all those 1500 people show up ahead of you? What did you do, oversleep? Stop to tie your shoe? Why would you be the 1500th.

Crowds build. In the morning it's easy to be the 90th person, the 200th, or the 750th. But then as the day goes on you'll be getting in longer and longer lines, regardless of FP or not. And those people who had FastPasses are now additional people in the standby line so it increases the size of the standby line. But assuming equal ridership, the wait times will be about the same.

The fact is the 1500th never was in a line very long because it kept moving. You are acting like it is stagnant and non-moving. Even if you were the 1500th you would probably have entered the line almost at the end of that hour. Plus within seconds the person behind you would become that number for a few seconds.

That's right. But the end or beginning of an hour doesn't matter. The line doesn't automatically reset at the top of the hour. It grows throughout the morning and into the afternoon as demand exceeds capacity, and then dies down later in the day.

you are kidding yourself if you think that you got through the parks quicker because you had those few FP's. You will more then lose that time standing in line for other attractions that you didn't have a FP for that have extended times because someone else did have one. Having done both no FP era and both FP era's nothing, but, nothing is gained in time.

My experience is the opposite. If you plan it well, utilize the first 90 minutes of the day, work to get 4th/5th/6th FastPasses, you can go through a lot of the parks without ever waiting in a long line. So yes for me it works very well. It does remove a level of spontinaity though, which can lessen enjoyment in that regard. But at worst with FP I think wait times are about the same as without, just distributed differently.

Oh, and I don't think the pre FP era and even the FP era can be directly compared because attendance figures are so different. To me the increased wait times have more to do with increased attendance and lack of new attractions than with the actual FP system. And as @marni1971 said, FP+ was supposed to allow increased crowds without new attractions and from that POV, it's been an absolute failure.

So in my ideal world FP+ would stay (maybe tweaked a bit to allow more spontinaity), but a whole bunch of new attractions would be added to add capacity and alleviate crowds overall.

 

[marni1971]

So in my ideal world FP+ would stay (maybe tweaked a bit to allow more spontinaity), but a whole bunch of new attractions would be added to add capacity and alleviate crowds overall and all the attractions that received FP+ without needing it nor can function correctly with it would have it removed

You forgot something

 

[mikejs78]

You forgot something

Sure, I'd be fine with that too.

 

[John park hopper]

Although what you are saying is true, the problem is not capacity it is much more personal then that. If you are in a regular line without any FP line and you are the 750th person in that line and you will be the 750th person to get on the ride. It's all about first come, first served. Now be the 750th person in that same line that also has a Fastpass line and you could conceivably be the 1500th person to get on the ride. Fastpass only benefits those that would otherwise be behind you in that particular line.

It isn't even without knowledge of things that we have known since our school days. Without being prompted we would get upset if someone cut in front of us in line. It is an antisocial thing. Why is it we get upset if we see someone cutting in front of the line we are in, yet, call it Fastpass and all those instincts of how things should be are tampered with. It is a normal reaction and Disney (of all places) should be aware of the basic human emotion. All they focused on was that one would be elated to get to go ahead of a lot of people it makes them feel superior or special. However, the rest of humanity standing in the heat, not moving have that other emotion of feeling like they aren't important or in the least, special. It just is wrong. It started so many bad feelings and anger that it was no longer fun to go. It is a current way of life in a theme park, but, unlike before instead of a humorous reaction it is a negative experience.

The basic fact is that unless you have one in your hand, Fastpass has done more to hold down the enjoyment of a Disney Theme Park experience and given people more time to contemplate the decline in quality of experience.

My take away from your post is Fastpass is Disney sanctioned line cutting. We all get PO when people cut in lines elsewhere but people just accept FP line cutting "It's Disney it's all good."

 

[WondersOfLife]

The wait will be shorter! If all attractions had standby only, wait times would plummet!

Eh. I waited an hour for my first experience on this at Disneyland. I wouldn't wait for this ride without a Fastpass.

 

[Goofyernmost]

My take away from your post is Fastpass is Disney sanctioned line cutting. We all get PO when people cut in lines elsewhere but people just accept FP line cutting "It's Disney it's all good."

It is legal line cutting, but, it is still line cutting. We are so used to just accepting that anything that might for a few moments give us the right to do something legally that without the Disney sanction of approval would be considered anti-social that we talk ourselves into accepting it as a good thing. It is not! I will repeat, over the years that I went to WDW I stood in very many queue lines. Some seemed long at the time. It wasn't until FP that those non-FP lines started to slow up to a crawl. Before FP people complained and joked about the lines, but, we all were having the same experience so even though sometimes the lines were long, it was fair, we were able to tell when we were going to get on the ride and we actually joked about it. The switch backs allowed us many opportunities to meet and remeet people in the lines. We would converse, make sarcastic remarks about cattle on the way to slaughter (or milking), but, we all knew that it was a shared experience with every single paying guest that entered the parks.

It was so noticeable the first time I was in a standby line after FP came into existence that the good natured joking and complaining had ended and instead was replaced by anger. Downright anger about the delays The tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife. People didn't joke anymore, people watched FP people stroll past us and even cursed as they went by. I was so shocked by that reaction that I wrote a letter to Disney and, although it took awhile for them to get back, they eventually did. I expressed my concern about the quality of the experience now that existed for those that did not possess a FP and how I thought that in the long run it would be detrimental to Disney. I still do.

I know I stopped going as often as I once had because it no longer was as much fun as it once was. Their response was as expected. "I will forward your concerns to management, you are not the first one to be upset about this, and thank you for your input, it is appreciated". I didn't expect them to change and discontinue something that they spent millions promoting, but, I did suggest that they could prevent a lot of the frustration if they just separated, completely, the Standby from the FP line and make it something that those sweating out the wait would, at least not have to watch those others pass by them on the way to line cutting. They kinda did that in the Soarin queue, but, I don't remember seeing it happen that way in any other. No one has to believe me, but, if you think that WDW or any of the Parks wasn't more fun and a happier place you would be amazed at just how much better it was and felt.