The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

[lazyboy97o]

For me, the biggest objection to Dinorama is Primeval Whirl. I think thematically that could work if the Coaster was eliminated or enclosed.

Why would a tourist trap have an enclosed coaster?

 

[WDWDad13]

Are you just being difficult? Please re-read what everyone has said. Nobody claimed you said Disney doesn't need rides nor that they aren't important.

If you can do Disney without a single ride...well...kudos to you. So I can open my eyes and become an adult, what do you do with your Disney time instead of rides? Maybe I am doing it wrong.

Edit: It's a serious question...I actually would like to know.

Well as an example....world showcase is pretty popular and I seriously doubt it is because of the rides

 

[Andrew C]

Didn't Walt never like to call DL's rides, rides?

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Using real numbers is meaningless, but comparing TWDC to a Chicago mac&cheese stand (not that I have seen one, hot dog or pizza stand might have been better) is?

The point my friend was making in the note was that Disney was a tiny corporation with a very tired BRAND that was about to be sold off piece by piece when Michael and Frank took over in 1984. They took a TINY company and made it a worldwide media powerhouse, and during Michael Eisner's tenure the market cap exploded by 30 fold.

That is anything but meaningless (although, yes, I would agree that your example is nonsensical and, therefore, meaningless).

To use the analogy of swapping out cheese to the spectacular achievements TWDC made during ME's tenure shows a profound lack of understanding.

But let me point out, and it's possible others already have as I read this thread in order and am on page 313, the 2005 valuation of the WDC could be viewed as unfair to Michael Eisner as it had been depressed by a recession, the worst domestic terror attack in US history, multiple wars and a general collapse in the tourism sector.

Pre 9/11, what was the market valuation of TWDC? I can tell you the $59 billion 2005 number suffered from Wall Street discounting the stock, largely (but not totally) over MAJOR concerns in the P&R division.

But back to your original point, @Empress Lily, if the market cap of TWDC (or any company) as cited in the note to me is a bogus metric, do tell me if I were to buy TWDC today, what price would I have to pay for it and what would that number be based on?

Thanks.



My, my, at least we know you are creative. Perhaps, even a creative enough acountaneer to work for Disney. Tell me, Lilly, you just stated that Iger ''exploded market cap'' but in reality he did little more than double it during his tenure. If you were investing your money in a company, would you want the executive who took each of your dollars and made you 30 more? Or, would you want the one who took your dollar and handed you back two and change?

... Playing with numbers can be fun. Just the facts.

The point of the mac&cheese stand is not that there is a meaningful corresponce between that and TWDC of 1984, but to show the meaninglessness of using market cap numbers ouside of context and interpretation.

But no hating on mac&cheese! America's finest are grown up on it by America's greatest chefs!


Fun with numbers time now! However, if one should use market cap for a comparison between Eisner and Iger, then Iger beats your boy Mickey Eisner like Spiderman beats street punks when he gets turned down by J. Jonah Jameson again.

For one example - parents and I have been too lazy yet - it is useful to bring in a general stock index performance to see who performed better. Because riding the current is not a personal achievement. Eisner's thirtyfold (well not really, but we'll play along) increase was realised during a period when the Dow Jones Industrial Average grew twelve fold. So we need to divide his 30 by 12, leaves us 2.5. (2.5 is what Eisner achieves on top of the general index, that is, over a dart throwing chimpanzee) He took twenty years, so we need to divide his 2.5 by two to compare with Igers ten years. This leaves us 1.25. A very disappointing performance compared to Iger nearly tripling market cap during his ten years of the biggest stock slump in Wall Street history. Iger's Dow index increased 0.3 in all.

Compared to the all-conquering Robert 'Augustus' Iger small fry Mickey Eisner had better returned to playing with his Michael Mouse ears indeed.

We all loves pix and graphs! Here's the Dow. Eisner starts at around Dow 1000, leaves at around Dow 12000. Iger starts at that 12k, from which it has slowly crept up to 16.

That it was a small corporation that Eisner grew 1.25 times over the general index per decade makes his performance worse, not better. Smaller corporations are easier to grow than big ones. Market leaders seldom triple in worth - after all, they are already a behemoth. One is not going to grow a car company from 30% market share to one with 90%. But it is easy to grow a car company from 1% to 3% market share. In fact, it is ordinary for small companies to do so, instead of a singular special feat. Especially heavily undervalued and underutilised ones, such as the Disney of 1984.

 

[CDavid]

Good grief people...I didn't say Disney doesn't need rides or rides aren't important but if you "adults" can't enjoy Disney without doing a single ride...well....maybe you're are doing it wrong and need to open your eyes a little more

Wait a minute - you're actually saying there is a correct way to enjoy a Disney theme park, and if we aren't doing it that one way, we're doing it wrong? Did you actually just say that?

Well as an example....world showcase is pretty popular and I seriously doubt it is because of the rides

But it is linked to the attractions in Future World. Further, what is the one thing World Showcase absolutely needs more of? Hint: it isn't shops or restaurants.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

For me, the biggest objection to Dinorama is Primeval Whirl. I think thematically that could work if the Coaster was eliminated or enclosed.

For me Dinorama works thematically very well.

The problem is the theme is rubbish.

 

[spacemt354]

Well as an example....world showcase is pretty popular and I seriously doubt it is because of the rides

I have a response but I'd like to know if you have any other examples?

 

[WDWDad13]

Wait a minute - you're actually saying there is a correct way to enjoy a Disney theme park, and if we aren't doing it that one way, we're doing it wrong? Did you actually just say that?

Wow...just....wow

This isn't worth my time arguing about this . You enjoy it however you wish (or not)

 

[maxairmike]

I still can't understand why people who are Disney park fans are just all about rides

Good grief people...I didn't say Disney doesn't need rides or rides aren't important but if you "adults" can't enjoy Disney without doing a single ride...well....maybe you're are doing it wrong and need to open your eyes a little more

You really don't get it, do you?

Want to know what my most visited attractions are? MK: Haunted Mansion, TTA, Hall of Presidents. EPCOT: American Adventure, SSE, Livin' with the Land. DHS: GMR, ToT. DAK: Kilimanjaro, Everest, and Nemo.

I count two thrilling rides, two AA shows, and one live action show. The rest are all "classic" slow moving, Disney, everyone can ride including the 1 week old (obvious exaggeration, but for a purpose) attractions. But yes, I'm all about the rides, especially the 'thrilling, restrictive, only teens and young adults are interested in them' rides. In fact, I regularly spend time at the parks without riding a single thing (or buying any piece of merchandise or piece of food), but as a local I'd hardly consider that "normal." Of course, one big reason I'm not constantly riding Space, Splash, BTMRR, Test Track, Soarin, etc. is because they tend to have regularly long and off-putting lines. Wait...that would suggest they're pretty popular. Hmmm...could be a reason a lot of people are visiting the parks, maybe? Nah, no one cares about rides at a Disney park, they just want to walk around, shop, and eat at over-priced dining locations while admiring all the style with no substance. I think the Leave a Legacy Stones are listed as an attraction on the MDE app, so I guess there's that (dead serious, too, look at the EPCOT wait times page, it will list Leave a Legacy).

Of course, I'm also one of the few folks here who thinks that large steel coasters like Hulk aren't an abomination to themeing, enjoys Cedar Point and other large, theme-less amusement parks, and generally wishes I had more large thrilling rides in Central Florida to enjoy (yep, still kind of bummed that OTP didn't actually happen). Maybe that makes my opinion and insight around here less credible?

Yeah, it sounds a bit harsh, but I think it may be needed.

 

[WDWDad13]

I have a response but I'd like to know if you have any other examples?

Parades and fireworks aren't bad, restaurants are pretty popular, and DTD even in its horrid state is bursting at the seems

 

[crispy]

Good grief people...I didn't say Disney doesn't need rides or rides aren't important but if you "adults" can't enjoy Disney without doing a single ride...well....maybe you're are doing it wrong and need to open your eyes a little more

How do you suggest people enjoy Disney? If I want a resort experience, there are much better and much cheaper options all over the real world. If I want to people watch, I prefer somewhere like New Orleans. If I want to get drunk, well, I don't drink, but if I did, I am sure there are better and less expensive options than the F & W Festival. If I want a culinary adventure, I can do a lot better than Disney's "signature" overpriced restaurants like Le Cellier. Seriously, what are we "adults" missing?

 

[Californian Elitist]

Wow...just....wow

This isn't worth my time arguing about this . You enjoy it however you wish (or not)

Apparently there's a correct and incorrect way of touring Disney parks, based on what you said earlier. David was just clarifying. I, too, am curious. What is the correct way? Is there some sort of book, or did you make up the guidelines yourself?

 

[yeti]

Good grief people...I didn't say Disney doesn't need rides or rides aren't important but if you "adults" can't enjoy Disney without doing a single ride...well....maybe you're are doing it wrong and need to open your eyes a little more

I'd open them more if they weren't stuck at the top of my head from rolling so much

 

[WDWDad13]

Of course, one big reason I'm not constantly riding Space, Splash, BTMRR, Test Track, Soarin, etc. is because they tend to have regularly long and off-putting lines. .

Hmmm...have you heard about these neat new bands you wear and FP+? They might help in your predicament

 

[WDWDad13]

I'd open them more if they weren't stuck at the top of my head from rolling so much

Probably just a little buzz off the butterbeer....don't worry it won't last long

 

[crispy]

Wow...just....wow

This isn't worth my time arguing about this . You enjoy it however you wish (or not)

In other words, you don't have an argument because what you said made no sense. People go to theme parks for rides and attractions. Period. Beautiful scenery, nice restaurants, and shopping venues are a bonus, but I have those things at home. Take away the rides and attractions and no would come to enjoy the scenery and shop.

 

[maxairmike]

Hmmm...have you heard about these neat new bands you wear and FP+? They might help in your predicament

Yep, I have, and I've given it a few tries, however I don't really care to be constantly trying to fuss with finding a time that works and never seem to get lucky. Plus, I actually have this thing called "patience" that allows me to tolerate waiting in line for something I think is worth it (yep, I've actually waited up to 45 min. for Soarin', multiple times), something a lot of folks seem to lack now. I probably developed it growing up visiting parks like Kings Island and Cedar Point where waiting 3+ hours for the new ride for a few years was normal, and you either waited and rode, or didn't. I like to keep my visits simple and off a time schedule, and since I often visit for a few hours at a time, it really isn't a big deal. I get on them or I don't, and if I don't, there's always next time.

Heck, I've recently discovered that I rather enjoy the visuals and soundtrack of Circle of Life (helps that I really like the Lion King, probably), and have found myself waiting through a full pre-show cycle a few times. Yeah, I'm probably certifiable. Where's the closest asylum?

 

[aladdin2007]

Well as an example....world showcase is pretty popular and I seriously doubt it is because of the rides

Its the booze, it never use to be ran on that solely but feels like its becoming that way more and more as TDO percieves it as a giant food court, and certain nights of the year its not a family atmosphere, at all. The focus has shifted greatly over the last ten years, with no substance added since 1989. Except for the China and Canada movies being updated, and el rio to gran fiesta, but still nothing new-new. Thats just how it feels to me, and true its def not popular because of the attractions. But it could be, so much better if they wanted. Now its all about only inserting something (more waterside clutter for example) that makes a profit directly.

 

[WDWDad13]

In other words, you don't have an argument because what you said made no sense. People go to theme parks for rides and attractions. Period. Beautiful scenery, nice restaurants, and shopping venues are a bonus, but I have those things at home. Take away the rides and attractions and no would come to enjoy the scenery and shop.

Like downtown Disney right? lol

 

[Cesar R M]

You know, after watching a few incidents in this forum today (including one where I am in part responsible). I wonder if someone poisoned this forums's waterhole (or if Sunday is an horrible day to talk in the forum).
Everyone seems to be on their toes today... sometimes direct insults being tossed around.
I hope a moderator like @wdwmagic helps to calm down the spirits... because they are very agitated today.

In other words, you don't have an argument because what you said made no sense. People go to theme parks for rides and attractions. Period. Beautiful scenery, nice restaurants, and shopping venues are a bonus, but I have those things at home. Take away the rides and attractions and no would come to enjoy the scenery and shop.

Imho...Pretty sure Disney lives not on just rides, but on attractions, shows and their character world (appealing, story, vision and entertainment).

Let's remember that Disney is for all the family ranges, not just adults who wants adult rides or trill rides.

The point of the mac&cheese stand is not that there is a meaningful corresponce between that and TWDC of 1984, but to show the meaninglessness of using market cap numbers ouside of context and interpretation.

But no hating on mac&cheese! America's finest are grown up on it by America's greatest chefs!


Fun with numbers time now! However, if one should use market cap for a comparison between Eisner and Iger, then Iger beats your boy Mickey Eisner like Spiderman beats street punks when he gets turned down by J. Jonah Jameson again.

For one example - parents and I have been too lazy yet - it is useful to bring in a general stock index performance to see who performed better. Because riding the current is not a personal achievement. Eisner's thirtyfold (well not really, but we'll play along) increase was realised during a period when the Dow Jones Industrial Average grew twelve fold. So we need to divide his 30 by 12, leaves us 2.5. (2.5 is what Eisner achieves on top of the general index, that is, over a dart throwing chimpanzee) He took twenty years, so we need to divide his 2.5 by two to compare with Igers ten years. This leaves us 1.25. A very disappointing performance compared to Iger nearly tripling market cap during his ten years of the biggest stock slump in Wall Street history. Iger's Dow index increased 0.3 in all.

Compared to the all-conquering Robert 'Augustus' Iger small fry Mickey Eisner had better returned to playing with his Michael Mouse ears indeed.

We all loves pix and graphs! Here's the Dow. Eisner starts at around Dow 1000, leaves at around Dow 12000. Iger starts at that 12k, from which it has slowly crept up to 16.

That it was a small corporation that Eisner grew 1.25 times over the general index per decade makes his performance worse, not better. Smaller corporations are easier to grow than big ones. Market leaders seldom triple in worth - after all, they are already a behemoth. One is not going to grow a car company from 30% market share to one with 90%. But it is easy to grow a car company from 1% to 3% market share. In fact, it is ordinary for small companies to do so, instead of a singular special feat. Especially heavily undervalued and underutilised ones, such as the Disney of 1984.

excellent study there @TheEmpressLilly . But is market share and Stock Price everything on Disney?
Let's not forget that sometimes the Stock inst exactly the absolute index of the health of a company.. (just look at Enron, as numbers can be manipulated)