The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

Next Big Thing

Well-Known Member
I have no idea what you are basing these thoughts on... But I believe you are fully 100% off on this except for the conventioneers
The reason people want to go to Universal in the first place these days is Potter (and recently with additions of DM, TF and Springfield as well). So the notion Express is the main reason is far off base. I know Express is a selling point, but my other point is I don't think many booking at CBBR will feel they are missing out. I mean, look at the amenities at the damn place! At a VALUE resort! Also, many who have expendable money just want to be in nice rooms and close to property and expect great service (although you could bring up foreign visitors again and exchange rates, etc).

Regardless, I think too much emphasis is put on how much hotel guests value Express. The ones that do REALLY do. But others could care less. Kind of like Extra Magic Hours.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Well I am not going to totally side with Imagineering for putting 500 dollar saddles on 50 dollar horses. Gosh that is probably a bad analogy. I still think the culture and mindset of WDI goes all the way back to Walt. Wasn't he the head of Imagineering once? Or maybe it was even it's own company way back in the day?
WED Enterprises, now Walt Disney Imagineering, was founded as a completely independent and separate company. It was one of the three original owners of Disneyland and later purchased by Walt Disney Productions (the Studio).

You might be right but I was sure I read somewhere in a discussion on this forum that Walt had several issues with HM theme and kept sending it back to the imagineers, while he was caught up producing COP and IASW for the World's Fair.
Tell me all the histories you know about attractions still open in at least one of the theme parks today. Jim went turkey hunting for 3 days and I have time.
One of the aspects of Walt's character that fans have trouble handling, and this is even more so of Walt Disney World fans, is that Walt could be very focused but also would habitually lose interest. By the 1960s other projects were taking Walt's focus away from Disneyland, including the haunted house.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
The reason people want to go to Universal in the first place these days is Potter (and recently with additions of DM, TF and Springfield as well). So the notion Express is the main reason is far off base

If you are trying to say 'because FJ doesn't have an express line.. express means nothing to these customers, so its not a factor in their visits' - I again disagree with you almost 100%. If you are trying to say "they are going for the attractions and not express pass.." - well duh.. but the topic here is about which hotel they stay in, not if they visit UNI at all. The very nature of how DOMINATE the express advertising is in both online and in park just goes to show that just because FJ or some others do not have express lines hasn't eliminated the significance of the program. The fact UNI can still sell the Express pass at such high prices shows guests do see value in it.

I know Express is a selling point, but my other point is I don't think many booking at CBBR will feel they are missing out. I mean, look at the amenities at the damn place!

When it's prime time and Express is being sold for $70+ a PERSON PER DAY... meaning a $250+ perk per day.. I highly doubt anyone is going to say "but yeah, I am so close to the bowling alley...".

Regardless, I think too much emphasis is put on how much hotel guests value Express. The ones that do REALLY do. But others could care less. Kind of like Extra Magic Hours.

Anyone who has used it wouldn't say that... Will many UNI-noobs not understand what they are being offered and will pass it by based on ignorance? I'm sure... but will anyone who is informed gloss over it? I don't think so

Will some accept the tradeoffs and still opt to NOT take Express pass.. sure. But will people discount it as a non-factor? no way.
 
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PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Two facts: Hitler was never elected in a free election by the majority of the German people. According to the German constitution at that time the German President (Mr Hindenburg at that time) had incredible powers to circumvent parliament and he declared Hitler chancellor in a coalition government with other conservative parties. By that time most of the governing was already done by decree anyway for some time. However, Hitler used massive tactics like burning down the Reichstag (the house of the German parliament) and producing a scape goat for that, throwing all communist members of the German parliament in prison or concentration camps and scaring everyone else in parliament into voting for the law that finally gave him absolute power - with only the Social Democrats voting against it even though they had to fear that the same thing would happen to them as had happened to the communists.

Also, there certainly was critical press around. Some of them are actually very well know names, like Kurt Tucholsky or Alfred Kerr. The later one actually had to flee with his family on the day that Hitler got to power as he was on the list of those to be imprisoned as soon as possible - one can read the whole story from the perspective of his daughter Judith Kerr in the novel When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit.

And finally: There certainly was no single cause for Germany becoming a Nazi dictatorship. And blaming the press on it, is just very odd. The Versailles treaty and the World Economic Crisis of the late 20s and early 30s certainly were far more important factors.

I really feel that this whole topic has no place in this thread, but if it comes up I would really prefer the facts to be straight!
You seem to be pretty knowledgable when it comes to history. I have one quick off-topic question and then let's get back on topic. I've been watching the events in Crimea and got a feeling of déjà vu. I looked up the events prior to WWII and found a parallel for why I was feeling that way. Rhineland. Hitler taking of the Rhineland is very similiar to what Putin just did in Crimea. Am I correct?
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I can see it... If he was alive today and producing a new CoP show, it would be sponsored by Facebook!

Actually the CoP was sponsored by GE at the Worlds Fair and that continued at WDW until relatively recently, If you notice all the appliances from the earliest show on were made by GE.

Perhaps our resident historian has some dates for us @marni1971
 

NoChesterHester

Well-Known Member
That isn't how I read this job description posting. I need to go find my Disney Wars book. I think I remember these departments would have meetings and throw out ideas to Eisner and the other managers and then it would be decided by management which were liked and going to be funded and the budget. WDI didn't make a decision about what project was a go and what wasn't.

I know this is hard to believe because it isn't how we have been told it works. We don't want to believe it. We have been trained to affix blame on some penny pinching executive when the reality is far less fun.

Glory books that beat the Imagineering drum don't tell you really how the sausage is made. I know there is nothing I can do to really make people believe. I can just try to put some facts out there. Honestly, it may shatter some people's steadfast defense of these "infallible Imagineers at war with the park executives." I hope it makes people think and realize the picture we have been painted isn't necessarily the case.

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Directly from the job posting: "The Walt Disney Imagineering (WDI) PreDevelopment East Studio is part of the globally-focused WDI Menu and Masterplanning Studio whose mission is to be the WDI partner entrusted to produce, focus and advance planning and development strategies."

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Let's discuss "Menu Planning" and it's role in our experience as fans shall we?

As @Lee stated, it is the design studio of WDI pitches ideas. Those pitches are either approved or not, but these pitches aren't to TDO or TDA. Here is the interesting part, the Menu Planning Studio of WDI chooses what/when they are pitching to fill. NOT the park management executives. This is contrary to the belief of how Imagineering Works.

Everyone wants to believe these blue sky pitch sessions between BusinessExecutives and WDI Executives eventually craft the parks that we enjoy. It may have once worked that way, but now that Disney is a giant bloated corporation there is less open communication. It is far too structured for a storybook.

It is this "menu" as provided by WDI to the Park Management that sets cost, scale, scope, etc.. TDO or TDA just shops the menu as provided to them when when it's supposed to. But what if this menu includes only a poop sandwich, a mutton chop, and a filet mignon? Then the executives find out that the filet, the only viable option, is three times the cost of what can be shouldered by the budget.

Or, what if you don't like the menu at all?

Once a project is approved and underway then the direct users are engaged to become the clients, provide feedback, and shoulder the cost.
 

NoChesterHester

Well-Known Member
Nope I hadn't yet! Well one I asked specifically why their projects tend to cost so much more than Universal's. His response was that Disney spends WAY more time constantly modifying designs, second-guessing, taking things into meetings, etc. Universal basically says "we want this, make it happen" when Uni Creative comes up with something, and then they immediately push it out the door to get built. Much of this, in his opinion, is due to Uni's higher reliance on hit franchises that perhaps can't wait to be built 4+ years down the road, and also due to just a stronger desire to grow quickly. They sort of just take the first good design and run with it, and that results in much more streamlined design development costs.

Disney, meanwhile, questions everything - every component of the design is taken into some kind of meeting and debated, adding months or years of salaried design work. He talked about how cast member focus groups were brought in and asked "is this how you would use this, is this dispatch station set up well, etc." and then going back to revise entire designs based on their feedback, something Uni probably wouldn't do. And then many different proposals are looked at - they might build 10 elaborate models with slightly different color schemes and then just go with one of them. That kind of thing. It sounds like a lot of the expense IS spent due to Disney's obsession with detail, trying out several different lighting schemes for an obscure portion of a ride or picking out the exact style of faux-wood that would look best in an area.

And revisions, revisions, revisions: management comes in and says "the operations department doesn't like this, find a way to add more vehicles, expand the loading area," merchandise comes in and says they want more room for the gift shop, cast member managers say they want a bigger breakroom, so the ride footprint gets reduced, every time shuffling square-footage around and redesigning major components of the attraction. Just tons and tons of second-guessing and modifying it sounds like Uni doesn't do. He said this somewhat defensively, as if all this careful consideration of design leads to a stronger design product and "the Disney difference" (and maybe it does). But at some point you have to wonder the trade-off, at what point the pursuit of perfection becomes inefficient and wasteful, and as NoChesterHester said, whether all that design effort would be better spent pushing things out the door and getting stuff built at a cheaper price to try and quickly fix WDW's problems. I know personally, I would prefer a New Fantasyland that is 80% as pretty as the current one, with a restored Imagination pavilion to match, but maybe that's just me.

Thanks for the detail.

Let's be clear however - the back and forth process, the revisions, the user input... That is a pretty standard design process. Things don't just go out the door and I didn't mean to imply that if I had.

Sounds like WDI has an overly complex process that is part of their culture. Hard to change when so protected.
 

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