The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

[maxairmike]

And that says it all ... if you lower quality and your audience is no longer discerning enough to get it, did you just get away with more Walmarting? As my beloved Sarah would say ''You Betcha!''

This is probably the thing that ticks me off more than anything else, and I'm right in the middle of the demographic you might expect to be leading the charge of ignoring the details and not caring about anything except doing more rides. It really gets me going because, as much as society has devolved to a much lower level (it really has, and it sucks to see), Disney as a brand and entity has the power and influence to shape what their guests think they want. The real kicker, they have to understand it and want to push the issue. The problem; they don't want to, because it is something that would not benefit the quarter to quarter and year to year financial mentality. EPCOT can easily be great again, and doesn't have to be filled with enough mental sugary fluff to make me puke like I'm sure they think is what is needed. Speaking of the word "think," the IBM exhibit may be the best, most thought-provoking thing in Future World in a long time. Seriously under-valued and underrated as an attraction.

 

[Cesar R M]

Brilliantly stated. Where is the button for a standing ovation?

Wish I had that "THE NAKED GUN 33 1/3" Image of where the APPLAUSE and then STANDING OVATION thing appears. XD

Don't go giving them any ideas....

What if they already know? D:

Sorry to reintroduce so many pages later, but since no one else did this, I will:

$2,500,000,000

That's a helluva lotta zeroes.

And probably will get worse?

Actually, I think I lot of people would want to hear that, and would agree. Wonders of Life, Imagination, etc...all areas that used to have substance and now don't, or have been converted to convention space, (for a theme park guest, basically the same thing...)

I'm pretty sure if I've read the "gloom and doomers" opinions correctly, they are basically saying what you are now. Disney needs to reinvent the areas of the park they have closed. Empty space is depressing. But it's also a public display of apparent disregard upper management has for the state of their parks. If closing certain areas of the park helps the bottom line...those areas will remain closed.

It's only when some magical lightbulb goes off in Disney executives heads that "Hey, maybe if we bring reopen these closed areas and built quality attractions, the fanbase will be happy and more people will come to the parks, helping the bottom line. It's a win-win!

CM are usually very good for our family. We rarely run into one that doesn't give off the vibe they don't want to be there. Has it happened, yes. But nothing that happens too often, which is surprising considering what Disney pays these people.

Agree on the empty space. Any empty space.. specially boarded or abandoned like; is sign of that something is going wrong..VERY WRONG.

My sister was at HS today and this is the exact text message I got from her:

Omg-all the machines r down at HS!!!
We have to show the app on phone to prove fast pass they won't accept a picture of it-to enter park they had to use iPads to scan us in

Oh, Tom ... you have little idea of the depths of my dislike of Twitter. Never has a tool existed to spread misinformation, bad information, rumours and outright lies as fast and to as large an audience. That's progress for ya. And that's leaving out all the fanboi drivel about how much they all love the Orange Bird and EPCOT wall carpeting.

Your first mistake was flying Frontier to begin with. Take a look at their recent public ing match between the CEO and the mother of a woman who was denied boarding to her connecting flight. Much like Spirit (I am involved in a legal dispute over them stealing my name!), I wouldn't be caught dead or with a special fanboi on a Frontier flight.

But generally, email won't result in a blow-off IF you contact the right person. That person will NEVER be in guest relations anymore than it would if you had a major MK issue and went to City Hall. They exist so the real people in power don't have to deal with the results of their decisions ... namely angry customers.

Now, it certainly helps to be a name. And you, Tom ... buddy ... pal ... you are now a name because of your websites and travel photography. But you don't have to be a name. Most folks simply won't contact executives because they are afraid. I made an off-hand comment on this thread about emailing or phoning Phil Holmes. I can get people to him (among many others) quite easily. I didn't get one fanboi hitting me up for Phil's contact info because they're afraid that Disney will ban them for life if they pick up the phone to complain to Phil about the MK and his leadership of it.

I alluded to the fact this week that I had two CEOs waiting to hear back from me for two days. I stated they weren't with Disney or UNI. Now, a little more info. They are both very well-paid execs of global BRANDs with companies that are worth billions. They are in the hospitality sector. I had a bad experience. I went to the top. Via email. Direct. A Sunday night note to one CEO, brought a Tuesday early afternoon response. No, it wasn't immediate. But it had a very positive response for me. ... Not only did I make them listen to my concerns, I also received FREE STUFF that made up for my issues tenfold. And I now have a dialog open with one of them about a possible consulting gig. Yes, I damn well know they spent all day Monday researching who I was and what kind of damage I was capable of doing before engaging me. Yes, they likely figured out pretty quickly that I am a Spirit of significance and one that you don't want to screw with. But I also firmly believe that the majority of people who would have done what I did, would have had a positive outcome of some sort.

I usually don't place personal info out there, but my point is you can get places and no, you don't need Twitter for that. Twitter largely gets you a very low level employee who is looking to get rid of you just like at City Hall.

So if you have concerns about show quality at the MK, you don't comment to a 25-year-old at City Hall. You engage Phil or George or Meg or Tom or all of the above ... because they absolutely don't want to deal with you. And Twitter won't do jack for you in such a situation.

I guess I am saying you are soooooo wrong!





OK, first, it's great to know I am not the only insane person to visit the Canyon in February! Hope you guys have a great time ... and that you don't make the old man rise before dawn (you do know that you can get great pics at times that the sun is neither rising nor setting, right?)

I have ended a 15-year loyalty with Continental (and more recently United). Most of those years I was either Silver or Gold elite (even back when it meant something ... and when you could fly a 777 from IAH to LAX and always got a free upgrade to BusinessFirst). I am now trying American with the first time and have status with them. I haven't actually taken one flight with them yet, so it should be interesting. But UAL absolutely destroyed the best domestic carrier in CO (one that as recently as 5-6 years ago could compete with foreign carriers).

I have flown United to China multiple times and I can't speak highly of their product at all.

always good to read your conversations and opinions!.

TDO could spend brazillions of dollars on new attractions or parks, fix the yeti, can pandora land, cure cancer and HIV, save the endentured orcas down the road, convince the obese to walk instead of ride, ban strollers, flog bloggers, and tar and feather lifestylers, and people would find a lightbulb burned out and gripe about it.

except they probably NEVER WILL.. private Yachts are higher priority you know.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Were the parks cleaner back then, yes. I will say people respected the parks more back then. We picked up our own trash, not watching a wrapper to see how long it took a CM to pick it up. If memory serves me people actually dressed up a bit to go to MK. But those were the days before it was cool to wear your pants around your knees and see what you can get away throwing at AAs in Haunted Mansion.

Today's Disney management treats the parks a hell a lot worse than a bunch of teens wearing their pants around there knees.

WDW's current state has a lot more to do with the way those banking their millions in Burbank act than it does with a few guests throwing wrappers on the ground.

 

[englanddg]

Speaking of the word "think," the IBM exhibit may be the best, most thought-provoking thing in Future World in a long time. Seriously under-valued and underrated as an attraction.

No. It's terrible. A bunch of monoliths and a strange video game with poor instructions that doesn't really "edutain" much at all. Compared to what it replaced...color me not impressed.

The wall would be great...except during my visit it was broken down every EPCOT trip we took during my 12 day stay back in August (and we go into Communicore West often, er...I'm sorry...Innoventions...because that's where the Piggy Bank game is.

I rarely saw anyone there, or watching the movie. They did have a Cast Member giving out pins though! Yay! Pins!

Though, I admit, SmarterPlanet was very similar to Seimans at Spaceship Earth...

 

[maxairmike]

No. It's terrible. A bunch of monoliths and a strange video game with poor instructions that doesn't really "edutain" much at all. Compared to what it replaced...color me not impressed.

The wall would be great...except during my visit it was broken down every EPCOT trip we took during my 12 day stay back in August (and we go into Communicore West often, er...I'm sorry...Innoventions...because that's where the Piggy Bank game is.

I rarely saw anyone there, or watching the movie. They did have a Cast Member giving out pins though! Yay! Pins!

Though, I admit, SmarterPlanet was very similar to Seimans at Spaceship Earth...

Never noticed any video games? Never did SmarterPlanet, it never really struck me as interesting, probably because of the SSE similarity (and I've never been enamored with that, either). I love the video and the large screens, though. They make me think and get my brain going when I browse through them and consider all the things they discuss. I can spend a good chunk of time in that corner and not even think about the time. I've spent a good twenty minutes just reading the banner that goes along the outer wall and didn't get all the way through it. I think it gets ignored because it is obviously educational and without a cute gimmick to get you in like the piggy bank game. However, I think that is also part of its beauty. The place it has isn't entirely ideal, either, IMO. Traffic flow through Innoventions is a bit of a mess with all the doors.

 

[englanddg]

Never noticed any video games? Never did SmarterPlanet, it never really struck me as interesting, probably because of the SSE similarity (and I've never been enamored with that, either). I love the video and the large screens, though. They make me think and get my brain going when I browse through them and consider all the things they discuss. I can spend a good chunk of time in that corner and not even think about the time. I've spent a good twenty minutes just reading the banner that goes along the outer wall and didn't get all the way through it. I think it gets ignored because it is obviously educational and without a cute gimmick to get you in like the piggy bank game. However, I think that is also part of its beauty. The place it has isn't entirely ideal, either, IMO. Traffic flow through Innoventions is a bit of a mess with all the doors.

The video games are along the curved wall outside the theater. They are all the same game (which plays a bit like a digital version of one of these...without instructions).

 

[NearTheEars]

You do know there is a group of swingers out there who call themselves the "lifestylers", right???? I'm assuming your not part of that group??? Disney who be an odd place for meat ups....

Haha I am not ... Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[maxairmike]

The video games are along the curved wall outside the theater. They are all the same game (which plays a bit like a digital version of one of these...without instructions).

Ahhh, ok. Probably just never paid attention to them as I really don't much care about those type of games when it comes to these attractions. I stare at the long wall outside the theater for a few minutes, go watch the movie (sometimes twice), then go and ponder at the large screens and read along that massively long banner. Unfortunately, I can only really enjoy THINK when I'm at the park solo, as no one else seems to really appreciate it. I also suck at math, so engineering and most of the things they talk about are completely out of my league, but man, it really gets my brain going.

 

[englanddg]

Ahhh, ok. Probably just never paid attention to them as I really don't much care about those type of games when it comes to these attractions. I stare at the long wall outside the theater for a few minutes, go watch the movie (sometimes twice), then go and ponder at the large screens and read along that massively long banner. Unfortunately, I can only really enjoy THINK when I'm at the park solo, as no one else seems to really appreciate it. I also suck at math, so engineering and most of the things they talk about are completely out of my league, but man, it really gets my brain going.

They probably stood out to me because the giant touch wall was broken through my whole trip.

 

[maxairmike]

They probably stood out to me because the giant touch wall was broken through my whole trip.

That's a real shame, it is kind of cool. Not as cool as the movie and large freestanding screens, but still a cool feature. I'm surprised I've only seen it broken once.

 

[Captain Chaos]

So true ... and some of us get tired of fighting it. There are times when WDW truly seems like a lost cause and the biggest cause of that is the majority of its fans are just ... well ...

I'll say it.. NUCKIN FUTS!!!!

 

[Gabe1]

Oh, Tom ... you have little idea of the depths of my dislike of Twitter. Never has a tool existed to spread misinformation, bad information, rumours and outright lies as fast and to as large an audience. That's progress for ya. And that's leaving out all the fanboi drivel about how much they all love the Orange Bird and EPCOT wall carpeting.

Your first mistake was flying Frontier to begin with. Take a look at their recent public ing match between the CEO and the mother of a woman who was denied boarding to her connecting flight. Much like Spirit (I am involved in a legal dispute over them stealing my name!), I wouldn't be caught dead or with a special fanboi on a Frontier flight.

But generally, email won't result in a blow-off IF you contact the right person. That person will NEVER be in guest relations anymore than it would if you had a major MK issue and went to City Hall. They exist so the real people in power don't have to deal with the results of their decisions ... namely angry customers.

Now, it certainly helps to be a name. And you, Tom ... buddy ... pal ... you are now a name because of your websites and travel photography. But you don't have to be a name. Most folks simply won't contact executives because they are afraid. I made an off-hand comment on this thread about emailing or phoning Phil Holmes. I can get people to him (among many others) quite easily. I didn't get one fanboi hitting me up for Phil's contact info because they're afraid that Disney will ban them for life if they pick up the phone to complain to Phil about the MK and his leadership of it.

I alluded to the fact this week that I had two CEOs waiting to hear back from me for two days. I stated they weren't with Disney or UNI. Now, a little more info. They are both very well-paid execs of global BRANDs with companies that are worth billions. They are in the hospitality sector. I had a bad experience. I went to the top. Via email. Direct. A Sunday night note to one CEO, brought a Tuesday early afternoon response. No, it wasn't immediate. But it had a very positive response for me. ... Not only did I make them listen to my concerns, I also received FREE STUFF that made up for my issues tenfold. And I now have a dialog open with one of them about a possible consulting gig. Yes, I damn well know they spent all day Monday researching who I was and what kind of damage I was capable of doing before engaging me. Yes, they likely figured out pretty quickly that I am a Spirit of significance and one that you don't want to screw with. But I also firmly believe that the majority of people who would have done what I did, would have had a positive outcome of some sort.

I usually don't place personal info out there, but my point is you can get places and no, you don't need Twitter for that. Twitter largely gets you a very low level employee who is looking to get rid of you just like at City Hall.

So if you have concerns about show quality at the MK, you don't comment to a 25-year-old at City Hall. You engage Phil or George or Meg or Tom or all of the above ... because they absolutely don't want to deal with you. And Twitter won't do jack for you in such a situation.

I guess I am saying you are soooooo wrong!





OK, first, it's great to know I am not the only insane person to visit the Canyon in February! Hope you guys have a great time ... and that you don't make the old man rise before dawn (you do know that you can get great pics at times that the sun is neither rising nor setting, right?)

I have ended a 15-year loyalty with Continental (and more recently United). Most of those years I was either Silver or Gold elite (even back when it meant something ... and when you could fly a 777 from IAH to LAX and always got a free upgrade to BusinessFirst). I am now trying American with the first time and have status with them. I haven't actually taken one flight with them yet, so it should be interesting. But UAL absolutely destroyed the best domestic carrier in CO (one that as recently as 5-6 years ago could compete with foreign carriers).

I have flown United to China multiple times and I can't speak highly of their product at all.

Correct! You do not have to be a somebody if they have really messed up. I was on a convention, I had difficulties making reservations (not Disney) and reservations gave me 2 days at one resort and 3 at the other. Fine. But when I went to purchase the special offer tickets for my family that was traveling with me I was told no because I had two different reservations. I objected because reservations was clearly aware when they were booking what I was intending. Magically they created a new reservation for 5 days at the Deluxe resort, my former 3 day booking and I could then book the discounted park tickets. However they never removed the charges from my credit card from the previous 2&3 days reservations a week later. I called. I got Mr. Snarky giving me a hassle for re-booking so close to a trip and was getting nowhere fast having him remove charges.

I called the home office in New York, the heck with Orlando reservation system. I laid out the names the dates and the charges pending on my credit card and the fact I was also traveling for a convention. The convention also rented their main park out one night.

Upon arrival at my Deluxe resort, family in tow, proceed to check in and a one moment please, manager appears. I was bumped up to a suite (DH & Kids so honk'n impressed) along with 2 adult 5 day park passes comp'd.
That evening upon return to our room there was a basket filled with several wines, cheeses and fruit while my children were given a platter of the most divine chocolates in an athletic theme.

Had I not detoured and went to corporate they would have continued to mess with me. I have zero tolerance for messing with me when I am the consumer. Corporate hates having to clean up messes their management should be capable of handling.

 

[Gomer]

And that says it all ... if you lower quality and your audience is no longer discerning enough to get it, did you just get away with more Walmarting? As my beloved Sarah would say ''You Betcha!''

It really comes down to what you are in it for though. Walmarting, as I understand it, implies the dumbing down of a product for consumers not discerning enough to know the difference. But in this case, is the train itself the product or is it the ride on that train? I'd argue its different for different people. If I care about the ride around the park and there is no measurable difference in that experience (which is still up for debate I understand), I'd say that no Walmarting has taken place. If your focus is on the train itself or the tours focused on those trains, then I would agree with you that the product has been lessened. That doesn't make the person who focuses on the ride less discerning. They are just not a consumer of the product being weakened. To that person, to extend the analogy, it would be like a store buying cheaper shelves on which to sell high quality products. The shelves are meaningless to that person as long as the products are worth their money.

That all being said and as I mentioned in a later post, I understand why many here would be upset. Even if the difference is never noticed and has no effect on an individual's experience in the parks, it still makes Disney World lesser that it isn't there. Or to quote my favorite lines from a rather mediocre Disney movie...

Barbossa: The world used to be a bigger place.
Jack Sparrow: The world's still the same. There's just... less in it.

 

[Phil12]

...while my children were given a platter of the most divine chocolates in an athletic theme.

It's all part of the long range corporate strategy. Fatten the children up and get them to use ECV's asap.

 

[GoofGoof]

I'm late to this discussion. I probably missed a post from earlier. Is the train rumor confirmed? I had heard rumblings about the steam trains being phased out a week or 2 ago and was hoping they were just part of the bus driver rumor mill. I assume based on the reactions here they have been confirmed.

The train is one of my favorite rides at MK. I would ride it multiple times a trip. I know they will just be replacing the steam engines with diesel engines and I'm sure they will be themed well like the one at AK, but it's just not the same. Now you get to ride actual antique steam engines. For me it's not just transportation to get from point A to point B or a slow, boring ride. In the past I defended other changes like Starbucks or alcohol in MK at BOG, but this one I can't get behind. I'm hoping maybe there is still time to save these steam engines, but I have little confidence that enough people really care. Sadly, the average guest probably didn't even know the trains were authentic.

Anyone know if the engines would be retired permanently or still used for special occasions? If they are retired would they put them on display somewhere?

 

[Nubs70]

It really comes down to what you are in it for though. Walmarting, as I understand it, implies the dumbing down of a product for consumers not discerning enough to know the difference. But in this case, is the train itself the product or is it the ride on that train? I'd argue its different for different people. If I care about the ride around the park and there is no measurable difference in that experience (which is still up for debate I understand), I'd say that no Walmarting has taken place. If your focus is on the train itself or the tours focused on those trains, then I would agree with you that the product has been lessened. That doesn't make the person who focuses on the ride less discerning. They are just not a consumer of the product being weakened. To that person, to extend the analogy, it would be like a store buying cheaper shelves on which to sell high quality products. The shelves are meaningless to that person as long as the products are worth their money.

That all being said and as I mentioned in a later post, I understand why many here would be upset. Even if the difference is never noticed and has no effect on an individual's experience in the parks, it still makes Disney World lesser that it isn't there. Or to quote my favorite lines from a rather mediocre Disney movie...

Barbossa: The world used to be a bigger place.
Jack Sparrow: The world's still the same. There's just... less in it.

The new train will be marketed as an authentic steam train experience not a green, sustainable, recreated steam train simulation.

 

[Gabe1]

It's all part of the long range corporate strategy. Fatten the children up and get them to use ECV's asap.

I'm not even sure how to respond to....this.

 

[GoofGoof]

It really comes down to what you are in it for though. Walmarting, as I understand it, implies the dumbing down of a product for consumers not discerning enough to know the difference. But in this case, is the train itself the product or is it the ride on that train? I'd argue its different for different people. If I care about the ride around the park and there is no measurable difference in that experience (which is still up for debate I understand), I'd say that no Walmarting has taken place. If your focus is on the train itself or the tours focused on those trains, then I would agree with you that the product has been lessened. That doesn't make the person who focuses on the ride less discerning. They are just not a consumer of the product being weakened. To that person, to extend the analogy, it would be like a store buying cheaper shelves on which to sell high quality products. The shelves are meaningless to that person as long as the products are worth their money.

That all being said and as I mentioned in a later post, I understand why many here would be upset. Even if the difference is never noticed and has no effect on an individual's experience in the parks, it still makes Disney World lesser that it isn't there. Or to quote my favorite lines from a rather mediocre Disney movie...

Barbossa: The world used to be a bigger place.
Jack Sparrow: The world's still the same. There's just... less in it.

Good point. Not everyone cares about the trains themselves. I imagine the new engines will look good and the ride scenery will be the same. For many the change will be seamless. It will still be a relaxing way to get from point A to point B.

 

[Nubs70]

I'm late to this discussion. I probably missed a post from earlier. Is the train rumor confirmed? I had heard rumblings about the steam trains being phased out a week or 2 ago and was hoping they were just part of the bus driver rumor mill. I assume based on the reactions here they have been confirmed.

The train is one of my favorite rides at MK. I would ride it multiple times a trip. I know they will just be replacing the steam engines with diesel engines and I'm sure they will be themed well like the one at AK, but it's just not the same. Now you get to ride actual antique steam engines. For me it's not just transportation to get from point A to point B or a slow, boring ride. In the past I defended other changes like Starbucks or alcohol in MK at BOG, but this one I can't get behind. I'm hoping maybe there is still time to save these steam engines, but I have little confidence that enough people really care. Sadly, the average guest probably didn't even know the trains were authentic.

Anyone know if the engines would be retired permanently or still used for special occasions? If they are retired would they put them on display somewhere?

I believe the boilers will be retrofitted to burn bio diesel. Just need a fuel tank under a thin layer of coal in the coal car. A fuel pump and a fuel injector for the combustion chamber. It would still need to take on water for propulsion purposes. So all in all, not real different other than no-one will have to shovel coal.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I believe the boilers will be retrofitted to burn bio diesel. Just need a fuel tank under a thin layer of coal in the coal car. A fuel pump and a fuel injector for the combustion chamber. It would still need to take on water for propulsion purposes. So all in all, not real different other than no-one will have to shovel coal.

No. The locomotives already burn diesel to generate the steam. That is not what is being discussed.