The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

[Goofyernmost]

When you bring old typewriters and washing machines into the discussion it's plainly obvious you have zero comprehension of why people are enamored with the idea of these machines as living machines

I can't argue with that. No I don't recognize a train as a living machine. It's a machine. Romanticize it if you like because the noise the steam makes sounds like it's breathing. It isn't, it's a hunk of metal with boiling water. The boiling water creates "blood pressure" and it moves the machine along. Take it off life support, fire, water and someone operating it, and it becomes quite dead. It lives mechanically only.

I don't have a problem with people liking that stuff or even loving it. But, it's alive only in the imagination.

 

[Nubs70]

Agreed. Plus they would add tons of solar power to WDW. The pollution from generating the electricity that runs the monorail is much greater than the pollution from the steam trains. In reality the trains are greener than the monorail is. WDW has some of the largest parking lots in the country. If they covered even a portion of the MK parking lot with solar panels they could generate enough electricity to run the monorail and probably the entire park. Plus they would have the added guest benefit of covered parking which would be nice in the dead heat of summer. Now that would be an attempt at being green.

Solar panels over parking lot?? You want an even bigger waste of money than MM+?? My local government did this to a Carpool parking lot. They were so proud of all the money they would save.
Problem is the project had a 65 year payback assuming no additional costs for upkeep for panels with a 20 year projected lifespan.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I can't argue with that. No I don't recognize a train as a living machine. It's a machine. Romanticize it if you like because the noise the steam makes sounds like it's breathing. It isn't, it's a hunk of metal with boiling water. The boiling water creates "blood pressure" and it moves the machine along. Take it off life support, fire, water and someone operating it, and it becomes quite dead. It lives mechanically only.

I don't have a problem with people liking that stuff or even loving it. But, it's alive only in the imagination.

A steam engine is considered "alive" because it cannot be turned on and off. Each one needs to be handled ever so differently.

 

[Gabe1]

Easy. You press the little blue button on the down right that says Reply, this is then opens a window and

Generally not on this thread. But you're right, you never know what will fly into threw the open window.

 

[ford91exploder]

Outsourcing/Offshoring is a tool, just like a million others. As long as you use it correctly, provide proper oversight, mange expectations with them, etc, it's a good tool. If you don't, well, you get what you pay for.

The iron law of economics always applies 'You get what you pay for', Like I said I was Dir of Eng for a outsourcer who specialized in providing IT for companies with less than 1000 employees, The ones who joined to 'save a buck' were always when changes were 'out of scope'.

The companies who made the decision to not build an IT department and have US do it were much happier but they PAID for the privilege.

 

[ford91exploder]

Well good point..people like me would never know what is powering the train without being informed. Wouldn't know the trains power source was changing without forums and info being shared. Personally I think when details are altered that were part of the originality of an attraction it's kind of a sad thing and it's okay for people to express themselves about the loss. But you do have to watch it doesn't turn into pathological complaining around here I gather...

Believe me you WOULD know, because that type of locomotive sounds like a jackhammer.

 

[ford91exploder]

That is not always true, and that is up to the people who deal in vendor management to weed out. A good outsourcer always needs to be aware of it's reputation. One of our vendors started giving us crappy work, we stoped using their resources. They lose money, their competitor gains.
Sure, it's out there, and I know it too, I consulted as well for an unscrupulous vendor, but just like there are employees that are set to give you less than 100% and collect a paycheck, there are vendors that will do it as well.

Agree with your points, You never want to do crappy work but you are not INVESTED in the mission of the company you are doing the work for, You want to do a good job but if customer has budgeted X for something you put your people on the project and deliver what they want for X or less if possible, You don't go and do X+50% and charge for X unless you want to go out of business.

 

[ford91exploder]

Want to know what I think is the biggest problem with WDW right now? No, of course you don't, but I'm going to tell you anyway. PUT SOMETHING IN OR REOPEN THOSE EMPTY BUILDINGS. Then get some CM's (some not all) that actually want to be there. Those two things are doing more to destroy WDW then any number of attractions that they haven't built. Nothing says loser like those empty or nearly empty attractions/buildings. It's like when a store goes out of business and they keep emptying shelves and putting things on the left over ones. Pulling things to the front to try and make it look like they are fully stocked. (BTW, Ray Charles could have seen through that) Even if people don't have a conscience thought about it, the brain registers. The individual, knows something is wrong, but they cannot seem to pinpoint it. Empty Restaurants, empty Pavilions, half filled Pavilions, all scream, hurry and get something cause we are fading fast. It, more than any chipped paint or lack of steam train effects, create that nagging feeling that something isn't what it used to be, but what is it?

Most CM's are very dedicated to their jobs and don't complain about us until they go home at night, but, some might as well be animatronics. They show no emotion, they smile but it isn't real, and it shows. That's when they do smile. A lot of the time they are talking with other CM's probably so it will look like they are accidentally ignoring the guests instead of intentionally. They are probably waiting for the store to close down as well. They are helpful when asked, but, are not proactive in their job. It comes across sometimes just what a burden we "Guests" really are.

Every restaurant that they have ever built should be open even if it loses money by the minute. It needs to show life not emptiness. If not tear it down and put an attraction in it's place if it's not needed. Or maybe realize that People need choices. Why were those places needed when they opened and now when they are getting the biggest crowds ever, they are closed. All those little things that people feel are so totally important when the parks feel alive and well, don't amount to diddly squat when everything else looks like it's dying.

I don't think that all CM's are like that. I had a brief conversation with a young lady that was working the registers at one of the "quick serve" places a couple of weeks ago. I asked her how she was doing and she said, very convincingly, "Great, ever since I was a little girl I want to work here at WDW. Now here I am, it's wonderful, I love it, everything has worked out the way I dreamed it would. And it was obvious that she meant every word of it. No one could act that sincere. Clone that girl, Disney needs a whole lot more like her. Chances are that Disney will value her out of the picture though at some point in time. That is what needs to be fixed before they can ever do anything that matches the Disney of old. Light bulbs and the occasional chipped paint mostly go unnoticed by everyone except we, the terminally obsessed, but, that other stuff does count even if they don't realize it.

The odd lightbulb and individual instances of chipped paint you are correct only WE notice them, The state of the bulbs now where entire strings are out on the GF are noticeable by EVERYONE and the chipped paint and filthy lighting at DHS/EPCOT are also noticed by the casual observer.

 

[ford91exploder]

You were doing Montreal waaaaayyyyy wrong >

After 14 hour days trapped in a conference room it was amazing I even had energy for that....

 

[ford91exploder]

I have flown United to China multiple times and I can't speak highly of their product at all.

There is a reason United is known in the industry as Untied Airlines, Both UA and AA have severe maintenance issues to the point where I will not fly on their aircraft.

 

[GoofGoof]

Solar panels over parking lot?? You want an even bigger waste of money than MM+?? My local government did this to a Carpool parking lot. They were so proud of all the money they would save.
Problem is the project had a 65 year payback assuming no additional costs for upkeep for panels with a 20 year projected lifespan.

The cost isn't even remotely close to MM+. Actually if played right Disney could partner with a company to install and operate the panels and they would just buy the power through a long term power purchase agreement. It would cost them nothing upfront and nothing to maintain since they wouldn't even own the panels. The cost to buy the power would be marginally higher now than what the spot market price for wholesale power is, but if they sign a 20 year PPA they would be locking in at a fixed rate which makes budgeting for future power expense easier. Plus the point is supposed to be to go green, not to save money. The PR spin would be so much higher if you could say the monorail is now powered by solar vs saying the steam trains have been replaced to reduce emissions. Plus they would have a good opportunity to sell sponsorship of the high profile panels. There are a bunch of energy companies who would love to have millions of people a year hear that the solar power that operates the monorail is brought to you by XYZ power Co.

The Philadelphia Eagles signed a similar type of deal for Lincoln Financial Field. It includes both panels on the stadium and panels over one of the parking lots. The actual array cost $30M to build, but the Eagles didn't pay a dime. The company that owns and operates the panels also signed on as an advertiser.
http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-16/entertainment/38558948_1_don-smolenski-turbines-desean-jackson

 

[ford91exploder]

The engines currently burn diesel to generate the steam. My understanding of the rumor is the engines themselves would be retired and replaced with replica steam engines that have diesel combustion engines on the inside but are made to look authentic, similar to the train at AK.

Like the PoS at HKDL which looks like the toonerville trolley

 

[GoofGoof]

That sucks. Why not just hook the train to a pickup and paint "TRAIN" on the side? After all, it will get oneself from a to b. And nobody cares about the engine.

I think based on the responses here some people do care about the engines. That's the whole reason for outrage. If the trains were already replicas and they wanted to change the fuel source nobody would care. Unfortunately there probably aren't enough people who know the difference between the real thing and a replica or care to make them change their minds.

 

[sshindel]

Agree with your points, You never want to do crappy work but you are not INVESTED in the mission of the company you are doing the work for.

One of the main reasons I left consulting actually. I always was invested in the mission of the company I was working for, and so all the little things my (unscrupulous ) firm asked me to do really got to me. It wasn't the only reason I left, but it was a reason.
And it never fully black and white either. There are individuals, even firms, that will become quite invested at least in ensuring the project or product is successful, even if only to ensure you continue to use their services.
I totally agree though, and we've seen it. We had a firm that kept trying to send us subpar workers because we let them get comfortable being our only supplier (in our group) for certain technologies. We had to shake them up and start bringing in a competitor.
But my current company is not outsourcing all IT. We have strong IT and knowledgable IT representatives overseeing any outsourced work. I've seen the proposals to start shipping more than that out, and thankfully those in power are avoiding it so far. It does get hard though, in my field (data integration / ETL) we've had job postings out looking for qualified full time employees for so long that they just pull them off the market after waiting so long. So I understand why the cheaper staffing option becomes so tempting, and it's why the company using it has to be very careful to ensure quality.

 

[flynnibus]

After 14 hour days trapped in a conference room it was amazing I even had energy for that....

You'd never survive a major trade show setup in Vegas. Where I coined the phrase.... You can make your body do anything for 7 days... Which was the motto when we talked about being too tired to stay out later, hehe

I've had numerous times where there were consecutive days of less than 2hrs of sleep if any. Work hard, play hard

Of course I'm old now... And we don't get to do that work anymore when you are a 'big company' now

 

[GoofGoof]

Like the PoS at HKDL which looks like the toonerville trolley

Is this what you mean:

 

[GhettoJetta5]

Using oil to power steam locomotives goes back almost to the early 1900's, Union Pacific and Southern Pacific locomotives were almost entirely oil fired, So fueling a steam locomotive with oil has lots of operational history behind it.

HKDL has Diesel-Hydraulic 'steam' engines which use a small diesel engine to power a hydraulic motor, Just no where NEAR the same, A steam engine is almost alive. There was a reason they called them 'iron horses'.

Yes, this! Steam engines are amazing. @ford91exploder also posted this link on another thread:

http://www.sdrm.org/faqs/hostling.html

This is, to an extent, part of what the "Magic Behind Our Steam Trains Tour" is about from what I understand, as well as some history of Walt Disney's passion for steam trains.... I believe WDW trains start up a little faster, but I am assuming the boilers are smaller than the train from the link posted and Bio Diesel or Diesel would be ready to ignite immediately (unless it was really cold) where the oil used sometimes needs be heated in order to make it liquid enough to make it to the firebox. Regardless, no one is paying $54.00 on top of regular admission to watch someone turn an ignition key and ride around the park on the Diesel train... (okay some might, but they will most likely be disappointed when they realize that is all that is involved).

Walt Disney World's Trains were originally built between 1916-1928 (Restored for WDW prior to 1971). Train 1 and 3 (Walter E. Disney and Roger E. Broggie) have sequential serial numbers.... They were together when build at Baldwin Locomotive, on the same Yucatan line in the 1920's and 30's, and they are still together now. These trains have been side by side for close to 100 years! (They are sometimes referred to as "Twins")...

To the argument that everything in Disney is designed to be Fantasy; it is just my opinion that originally that is simply because it had to be. I am sure we have all heard the stories about Walt Disney wanting the Jungle Cruise to be real with actual animals, real steam trains are a REAL Possibility. I know Disney World is very different now, but steam trains, REAL steam trains, were Walt's passion. As you all know Walt's first model train was named Lily Belle which obviously became the name of Engine no.2 at WDW, and it has been under "refurbishment" for a long time and if it does not come back that is truly a shame. @The Empress Lilly will tell you what TDO seems to be doing to anything named after Walt's wife...

The reason we get upset over "Just Steam" or what moves the trains is it has nothing to do with that. The trains running on steam is a piece of history, a piece of Disney history, heck even a piece of Disney himself. The Disneyland railroad was sometimes considered as Walt's "full-sized model railroad". I agree that these "Iron Horses" do seem almost alive. These pieces of "living" history carry not only Walt's passion, but the sweat and tears of anyone who built, worked on, and restored these trains to bring them to WDW. They are a beautiful piece of history, and could be considered a big part of what separates Disney from other parks. Anyway I have been rambling beyond belief but this has just been my input, not attempting to attack anyone, everyone is obviously entitled to his/her opinion.

 

[stlphil]

TDO could spend brazillions of dollars on new attractions or parks, fix the yeti, can pandora land, cure cancer and HIV, save the endentured orcas down the road, convince the obese to walk instead of ride, ban strollers, flog bloggers, and tar and feather lifestylers, and people would find a lightbulb burned out and gripe about it.

If people only found one lightbulb burned out they wouldn't gripe. They would give a little laugh, joking that "well Disney isn't perfect after all", and marvel even more at the place. Just like they used to back when it was run marvelously.

 

[GoofGoof]

Yes, this! Steam engines are amazing. @ford91exploder also posted this link on another thread:

http://www.sdrm.org/faqs/hostling.html

This is, to an extent, part of what the "Magic Behind Our Steam Trains Tour" is about from what I understand, as well as some history of Walt Disney's passion for steam trains.... I believe WDW trains start up a little faster, but I am assuming the boilers are smaller than the train from the link posted and Bio Diesel or Diesel would be ready to ignite immediately (unless it was really cold) where the oil used sometimes needs be heated in order to make it liquid enough to make it to the firebox. Regardless, no one is paying $54.00 on top of regular admission to watch someone turn an ignition key and ride around the park on the Diesel train... (okay some might, but they will most likely be disappointed when they realize that is all that is involved).

Walt Disney World's Trains were originally built between 1916-1928 (Restored for WDW prior to 1971). Train 1 and 3 (Walter E. Disney and Roger E. Broggie) have sequential serial numbers.... They were together when build at Baldwin Locomotive, on the same Yucatan line in the 1920's and 30's, and they are still together now. These trains have been side by side for close to 100 years! (They are sometimes referred to as "Twins")...

To the argument that everything in Disney is designed to be Fantasy; it is just my opinion that originally that is simply because it had to be. I am sure we have all heard the stories about Walt Disney wanting the Jungle Cruise to be real with actual animals, real steam trains are a REAL Possibility. I know Disney World is very different now, but steam trains, REAL steam trains, were Walt's passion. As you all know Walt's first model train was named Lily Belle which obviously became the name of Engine no.2 at WDW, and it has been under "refurbishment" for a long time and if it does not come back that is truly a shame. @The Empress Lilly will tell you what TDO seems to be doing to anything named after Walt's wife...

The reason we get upset over "Just Steam" or what moves the trains is it has nothing to do with that. The trains running on steam is a piece of history, a piece of Disney history, heck even a piece of Disney himself. The Disneyland railroad was sometimes considered as Walt's "full-sized model railroad". I agree that these "Iron Horses" do seem almost alive. These pieces of "living" history carry not only Walt's passion, but the sweat and tears of anyone who built, worked on, and restored these trains to bring them to WDW. They are a beautiful piece of history, and could be considered a big part of what separates Disney from other parks. Anyway I have been rambling beyond belief but this has just been my input, not attempting to attack anyone, everyone is obviously entitled to his/her opinion.

Great post. This is exactly the point. You are losing the history. These machines are operating antiques that you don't have to just view in a museum but you can actually ride on. It's not about getting from point A to point B or even what the trains look like. For me it's a loss.

I can understand why some people don't care. Not everyone appreciates or cares about the history. They just view the train as another ride. As long as the ride has the same scenery and look and the trains look mostly the same they don't care about the change.

 

[Nubs70]

The cost isn't even remotely close to MM+. Actually if played right Disney could partner with a company to install and operate the panels and they would just buy the power through a long term power purchase agreement. It would cost them nothing upfront and nothing to maintain since they wouldn't even own the panels. The cost to buy the power would be marginally higher now than what the spot market price for wholesale power is, but if they sign a 20 year PPA they would be locking in at a fixed rate which makes budgeting for future power expense easier. Plus the point is supposed to be to go green, not to save money. The PR spin would be so much higher if you could say the monorail is now powered by solar vs saying the steam trains have been replaced to reduce emissions. Plus they would have a good opportunity to sell sponsorship of the high profile panels. There are a bunch of energy companies who would love to have millions of people a year hear that the solar power that operates the monorail is brought to you by XYZ power Co.

The Philadelphia Eagles signed a similar type of deal for Lincoln Financial Field. It includes both panels on the stadium and panels over one of the parking lots. The actual array cost $30M to build, but the Eagles didn't pay a dime. The company that owns and operates the panels also signed on as an advertiser.
http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-16/entertainment/38558948_1_don-smolenski-turbines-desean-jackson

The waste is in terms of payback. MM+, a colossal misallocation of capital, will break even long before anything solar. Even if some third party fronts funds to build and operate a solar generator, WDW will pay more per MW than what is available from cheaper generating sources. Higher priced electricity increases costs for WDW which increases prices to the consumer. I would also note that the article fails to mention what the Eagles will be paying for the solar electricity.

The Eagles stadium is basically a generator for 355 - 357 days per year and only uses full load 8-10 days per year. Where as WDW monorail is full load 365 days per year. Entirely different model