The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
For those who can't picture StarToonLand, I would go back to the reactions I got when I mentioned UNI was expanding Potter into two parks, connecting the areas via backstage with the Hogwart's Express and taking away the iconic Jaws to do so. People didn't believe it and came up with all sorts of logical reasons why what I said was impossible.
Did y'all get the special RnRC 15th Anniversary merchandise?
I'm not getting the impression that people finding the idea baffling is a means of trying to refute the credibility of the information. it just seems like a very bizarre placement. I'm not overly shocked, but I also dislike the placement of the new lands at Hong Kong Disneyland, especially the way Disneyland Paris so improved upon the organization and cohesiveness of the lands.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Iger took Eisner's willingness to cut corners in order to make a buck and turned it into WDW's mantra.

In many people's opinion, WDW is worse today than it was in 2005, Eisner's last year.

Iger has been CEO for 9 years. Iger has taken an ax to Disney's Parks & Resorts capex budget, with the lowest P&R investments vs. P&R revenue ratio of any Disney CEO.

I don't see anyone rushing to clean up "Eisner's mess" in Orlando.

No, I'd suggest that those who do need corrective lens ASAP.

I am not a numbers Spirit, but those numbers do speak for themselves.
 

Lee

Adventurer
"What has Iger taken away? What part of WDW is worse now than in 2005?
Oh, that's too easy...
adventurers-club-nosign.jpg


And just like that...Iger loses. Forever. No redemption is possible. Ever.

Same with your other photos. You make some valid points, but then you cherry-pick some photos that don't really tell the story. Somehow you forgot things like...

Eisner MK:
splash_mountain_drop.jpg


Iger MK:
opening-welcome-area-of-storybook-circus.jpg


Eisner DHS:
Tower-Of-Terror.jpg


Iger DHS:
http://www./wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BryHgQZIAAAhGnc-450x600.jpg

See, it really is a mixed bag for both. Trying to paint one as all good and one as all bad is pointless.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Maybe we should thank Universal for waking Disney up some.
Universal announces in 2007 Potter is coming to Florida.
Since then:

Disney announced New Fantasyland in 2009
Disney announced Avatar Pandora in 2011
Disney announced Downtown Disney Expansion in 2013
If every two years holds true...Disney is about to announce a Major Major addition:
Disney will announce Star Wars at DHS in 2015

I would then assume Disney will announce in 2017 something with Epcot.

Slowly Disney is stepping up their game. WDW in 2020 will be awesome!

Sorry, but that just sounds like fanboi rah-rah drivel.

I have seen or heard nothing that makes me think Disney is on any path but the one started in the 90s by the Strategic Planning guys who still run the company.

WDW has been largely stale for 15 years, definitely the last decade. We should wait another 6-7 years?!?! Do you realize how insane that sounds for a company of Disney's size and profits?

They've largely lost me now. In 6-7 years, I could be living on the other side of the globe and I won't be coming back to pay $79 for a buffet at the new Star Wars Cantina. Not this Spirit.
 

michmousefan

Well-Known Member
I do like Screamin'. It's a roller coaster so people would be quick to call it an E, but it would be a weak one at that. Personally, I think it would be a better ride, both from a thematic standpoint and an actual ride standpoint if the loop was removed.
I realize I'm in the minority here, but I feel in terms of ride length, thrills and ride quality that Screamin' is the best coaster on *any* Disney property... in the US, at least.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Sad but all too true. It would be nice to think that Iger wanted to improve DCA and HKDL for guest satisfaction. The truth is, as with most all companies with poorly performing investments, Iger approved the expansion/improvements to increase the bottom line of two sorely underperforming parks. And both had pressure from the respective governments pushing this to happen.

HKDL expansion was FORCED on Iger. He even tried a fast one during negotiations by firing/moving most of the WDI staff over there in order to force the SAR to pony up money. It failed. Disney actually paid the entire $950 million expansion costs itself.

Anaheim wasn't quite as bad, but officials basically told Disney that if it wanted cooperation on any major infrastructure improvements in the resort area that DCA had to be more than a punchline.

Again, I'll point out that Disney cut corners on both HKDL and DCA projects, even if the end results are generally terrific.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
So, how big is Toontown? I've never been, going to DisneyLand in February. That would give us a size of Star Wars land and then we hear WDW is getting the best version. Very exciting!

I don't know who is saying WDW's Star Wars project will be the best version. They should be very, very similar.
Overseas, those projects will each likely be different.
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
Spirited Weekend Quickees:

The DLR Star Wars info is VERY good and fairly up to date (had to delay it for what should be obvious reasons). I do have details that I am not going to put out beyond that.

For those who can't picture StarToonLand, I would go back to the reactions I got when I mentioned UNI was expanding Potter into two parks, connecting the areas via backstage with the Hogwart's Express and taking away the iconic Jaws to do so. People didn't believe it and came up with all sorts of logical reasons why what I said was impossible.

While I wouldn't say Disney will be breaking new ground here, there are multiple ways they can do this and that's really as far as I am going. When the desire is there as well as the dollars and creative energy ... well, amazing things can happen. Will that be the case here? Will they even not change things up? I have no idea. I am pretty sure this will be happening. But I am not as sure as I was with Potter because ... well, UNI has more faith in its products than Disney does today.

Interesting. IF they decide to keep Star Tours in Tomorrowland, I wonder if there would be a way to utilize the current PM track to take guests from there to the new SW Land via some type of Potter-like enclosed vehicle. There certainly are enough transports that would work well for this type of thing. This could address a major concern many, including myself, have expressed with regards to 2 SW properties in different sections of the park. I just wonder if they would have more than one SW themed attraction/restaurant in TL beyond STours? Make it 2 SW destinations. Definite possibilities.
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
I don't disagree. That was my first reaction as well.

But so was my first reaction to hearing about Potter 2.0/DA/HE. And I'm guessing that most UNI fanbois thought it was crazy too.

This actually makes more sense if you think about it like WDI/TDA is.
I think that once we have more details, see my post above, it may click for many of us.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Agreed. Imagine rounding the corner from the Teacups area into the Small World area, and running into... Star Wars? Also seems prohibitive for fireworks shows, although perhaps that could be reconfigured.

Despite what Spirit says, that really doesn't seem like a large chunk of land to me. They could close or move around stuff like the Fantasyland Theater and the horse barn, but that sounds like a lot of trouble.

My last post on this subject unless/until I am able to release more info, but for the plans there is PLENTY of land that will be utilized and still leave other areas open for future expansion.

Things can be moved, relocated (not talking attractions here, sorry RR fans) etc. This ties into a comprehensive expansion and infrastructure plan for the resort.
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
So sad, so likely true.

Martin, I think you miss the fact that people visit WDW to go to dance parties, spend 3-4 hours in line to meet 22-year-olds playing Princess dress up and wear plastic wristbands.
I wonder if they will fast track it in Disneyland compared to WDW and we actually see something in the 2018-2019 range?
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
I don't know who is saying WDW's Star Wars project will be the best version. They should be very, very similar.
Overseas, those projects will each likely be different.
That's depressing. One would think that since DHS has more room we could get a better land but no, Disney can't have that can they. Anything to make the cost cheaper :banghead:
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
I don't disagree. That was my first reaction as well.

But so was my first reaction to hearing about Potter 2.0/DA/HE. And I'm guessing that most UNI fanbois thought it was crazy too.

This actually makes more sense if you think about it like WDI/TDA is.

So, the question would be: does Star Tours move or not?
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Many point to the Frank Wells' death in 1994 as the beginning of the 'bad' Michael Eisner years. From a show perspective at the theme parks, there is some merit to this.

Insiders recall a time when (heaven forbid) they were being required to justify budgets. It's also the time when places like Main Street USA were transformed from experiences in and of themselves into shopping malls. :(

Even during these years, Eisner continued to invest in Disney's Parks & Resorts (P&R) segment.

Budgets tend to be evaluated from an expense vs. revenue perspective. How much is being spent vs. how much is being brought in? Expenses tend to be divided into operating expense (the cost of day-to-day operations) and capital expense (improvements). Disney often refers to capex as "investing activities".

Investing activities include theme park improvements that are easily recognizable such as Cars Land, New Fantasyland, and Pandora.

It also includes required upgrades to P&R's tremendous physical assets, what Disney CFO Jay Rasulo refers to as "FF&E and maintenance capital" (FF&E = "Furniture, Fixtures, and Equipment"). Rasulo said that this "FF&E and maintenance capital" budget back in 2006 was "about $1 billion [...] being an ongoing level without special projects added to it".

In 2011, Rasulo said that the capex budget was even higher (without specifying a number) due additional projects needing more "maintenance capital". With inflation, it seems the current capex budget "without special projects" is at least $1.5 billion. In other words, if corporate Disney did not add to any of its theme parks, it still would spend about $1.5 billion annually just to keep its facilities current.

This number is important to remember when looking at P&R's investing activities in order to recognize exactly how much is being spent to improve the theme parks (at least the kinds of improvements that can be advertised as such to potential buyers).

In 2013, Disney's Domestic P&R investing activities were $1.14 billion, while its International activities were $970 million. Remove the "FF&E and maintenance capital" expenditures and the money committed to Shanghai Disneyland, and it's apparent that very little is left for improvements at Disney's numerous other existing theme parks throughout the rest of the world.

All of this was just to give you an idea of how Disney can spend $2.2 billion annually in P&R capex and yet we see very little added at WDW.

Now we have to put this in historical perspective.

In 2013, Disney's P&R segment took in $14.1 billion. That $2.2 billion in capex represents 15.0% of P&R revenue. 15.0% sounds like a lot but, hopefully as I've shown above, Disney can spend 15% and yet fans see little added to WDW.

From 1994 to 2005 (supposedly Eisner's 'bad' years), Disney averaged 24.5% P&R investing, including the very lean years of 2002 and 2003, when the vacation industry collapsed.

Last year, Comcast spent 26% on its Theme Parks investments.

During his 8 full years as Disney CEO, Bob Iger has averaged just 14.1%. His best year of investment was 23.1% in 2011 (think Cars Land and cruise ships), which is below Eisner's average during his 'bad' years.

Let's put Eisner's 24.5% average into terms we can understand today. The difference between 24.5% and Iger's 15.0% in 2013 is $1.3 billion annually. Just imagine what could be built with an extra $1.3 billion invested every year.

When it comes to Disney's Parks & Resorts, anyone who thinks Iger is an improvement over Eisner even in Eisner's worst years should pay closer attention to the numbers.


Re-READ this post from Prof. @ParentsOf4, students.

Also for all you apologists who bring out that oh-so-original ''Disney is a business'' line.
 

Quinnmac000

Well-Known Member
Spirited Weekend Quickees:

Finally, I'll tackle the heavy subject that was brought up: namely attempting to bring about change. Look, I get that many people feel powerless in life. Part of that is our society ... Wall Street and D.C. want you to feel that all is hopeless and you should be worried about nothing beyond getting the newest iPhone tracker. But I know ... yes, KNOW ... that people can make positive changes. In their communities, in the companies they do business with, anywhere.

It does start with confidence.

But you have to go in believing. If you think that you are powerless, then you are. I don't intend to go back and forth with individuals here who believe that complaining here and in the real world is all a waste when I know that it isn't. If you've given up on life, on society, on government, then great. You're part of the problem, but there's nothing the rest of us can do about that. But some of us know that it isn't hopeless and we're going to keep on keeping on. I really don't have much else to say to you.

I don't think people lack confidence; its the bystander effect. Why do I have to do it when I'm sure someone else will stand up but very powerful statement indeed. Makes me wonder how many people go into Imagineering hoping to make changes just to get stepped on by the bureaucracy of Disney and how many fight tooth and nail for their projects just to get green-lit raising their hopes but then gutted for funding so they have to cut all their ambitious goals. I think that takes the biggest toll.

Even on these boards, for every piece of good news we get excited about, later on get disappointed because our imaginations made it greater than it was , we find something was cut, or we find out its getting delayed/cancelled.

People can keep comparing Disney to Universal but it indeed won't matter to Disney. Disney will notice it yes but at the moment it won't care because in school terms its GPA is still at a 3.8 while Universal who is getting As recently still is in the 2.0s. People can fight with their dollars but for every dollar they don't spend someone else will it seems.

The only thing people can do is have hope. If you have creative ideas, spit them out no matter how stupid they seem. (Of course there are stupid ideas aka Superstar Limo) That's where the Disney Magic lies. You see an imagineer, thank them for what they do and tell them to keep pursuing their ideas no matter how much Burbank says no. Maybe then the change will come.
 
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GoofGoof

Premium Member
That's depressing. One would think that since DHS has more room we could get a better land but no, Disney can't have that can they. Anything to make the cost cheaper :banghead:
I personally don't have an issue with cloning the rides in both parks. I don't visit DL enough to make it redundant. If it keeps the cost down that sadly makes it more likely to happen. Bad way to look at things, but this is where I'm at these days.

DL itself kinda deserves a new E-ticket anyway. The last one in that park was Indy back in 1995. DCA has gotten all the fancy new toys. They need to even things out. It sounds like this plan is more than just a meet and greet and character meal so I'm hoping that WDW gets at least the same treatment in DHS. It would also be nice if they were built around the same time but if the DL project started in 2015 and DHS was a year behind that would be OK too.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
I personally don't have an issue with cloning the rides in both parks. I don't visit DL enough to make it redundant. If it keeps the cost down that sadly makes it more likely to happen. Bad way to look at things, but this is where I'm at these days.

DL itself kinda deserves a new E-ticket anyway. The last one in that park was Indy back in 1995. DCA has gotten all the fancy new toys. They need to even things out. It sounds like this plan is more than just a meet and greet and character meal so I'm hoping that WDW gets at least the same treatment in DHS. It would also be nice if they were built around the same time but if the DL project started in 2015 and DHS was a year behind that would be OK too.
My point is that the Toontown plot really doesn't look big enough to hold a sizable Star Wars E Ticket that I'm sure we all want. DHS on the other looks like it has plenty of room around Echo Lake like the Indy space. Why can't that space be fully utilized to give us a huge ride even if Disneyland doesn't have the space to clone it? Give us something unique on the scale of RSR.
 

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