The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[DonaldDoleWhip]

I didn't gloss over it. I excluded it because comparisons to Universal serve no purpose when discussing Disney against Disney and the "intangibles" that made WDW what it was. You introduced Universal - which honestly has no bearing to this discussion... so instead of saying so explicitly... I focused on what mattered. But now you can have it both ways and I'll say it for you explicitly... What Universal does with merchandise means nothing to this discussion about WDW it's "intangibles" and the significance of merchandise to that.

Excuse me for bringing up Universal as a point of comparison...in a thread where the majority of recent posts have been about Universal.

I don't disagree with you about the significance that merchandise could contribute. And in fact (despite your insistence that comparisons to Uni don't matter) Potter actually does this better than WDW right now. The rest of Uni lags behind, but I certainly understand that merchandise could be used to enhance the WDW experience. Just because it isn't my biggest concern, doesn't mean I disagree. In fact, maybe merchandise would "do something" for me if it wasn't similar at every store.

Spare me your martyrdom. If you don't want to discuss feelings and opinions, don't hang out in threads centered around them.

I object to discussing feelings and opinions as solid fact. If Uni criticism is going to be dismissed and WDW praise isn't permitted, then this isn't really a discussion.

 

[SJN1279]

Kali is an E no doubt. But not much tech involved, which is what I was thinking of in my quote.

Everest? Not in my opinion. Could have and should have been though. Dark empty spaces, light leaks, visible structure knock it back. It's very good, but not great. If it had been a Matterhorn on steroids it'd be one of WDWs best.

I don't think Everest is as good as it can be(lack of soundtrack/dead space), but it is a definite E. It is an especially scary ride at night.

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

That mindset ignores that it is far more costly (time/energy/resources) to REPAIR images than it is to build them. By coasting on their past (because hey.. people are still buying!) and failing to prepare for the future.. the company dooms itself to never recover it's past position.

Pick your cliche of choice... "If you are aren't winning, you're losing" or whatever. Every day WDW throws away coasting is a day the competition is getting stronger and a day you lose preparing for the next thing.

Well thank goodness for TDO that WDW's image is still so positive. That's exactly why they're coasting - because people are still drinking the Kool-Aid.

DCA had to repair its image because word of mouth quickly spread about how underwhelming it was. None of the WDW parks are close to having that problem. Perhaps Animal Kingdom did for a while (when it first opened), but Asia and Expedition Everest quickly ended that. Even without a moving yeti.

 

[Mike S]

Test Track, Mission Space, Seven Dwarves Mine Train, Rock N Roller Coaster.

It's a good ride sure but definitely no E Ticket.

 

[marni1971]

I don't think Everest is as good as it can be(lack of soundtrack/dead space), but it is a definite E. It is an especially scary ride at night.

It is good at night. If only the visuals inside matched the premise.

 

[SJN1279]

I also consider Dinosaur an E. While not nearly as good as Indy, it is a very fun ride. The closing scenes with the Carnosaurus are especially intense.

 

[marni1971]

I also consider Dinosaur an E. While not nearly as good as Indy, it is a very fun ride. The closing scenes with the Carnosaurus are especially intense.

Again, it should be.

So many things not working and a butchered budget at the 11th hour destroy the intended story line sadly.

When did you last see the laser net that actually helped you bring back a live Dino?

Very good. Lots of fun. Should be awesome.

 

[devoy1701]

Again, it should be.

So many things not working and a butchered budget at the 11th hour destroy the intended story line sadly.

When did you last see the laser net that actually helped you bring back a live Dino?

Very good. Lots of fun. Should be awesome.

I wonder how many times you have made this exact comment regarding CTX in the 11 years you've been on this forum. lol

 

[marni1971]

I wonder how many times you have made this exact comment regarding CTX in the 11 years you've been on this forum. lol

I've lost count. Sadly.

Now you mention it, it's actually 15 years. Steve had to remake my account in 2003.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Well thank goodness for TDO that WDW's image is still so positive. That's exactly why they're coasting - because people are still drinking the Kool-Aid.

DCA had to repair its image because word of mouth quickly spread about how underwhelming it was. None of the WDW parks are close to having that problem. Perhaps Animal Kingdom did for a while (when it first opened), but Asia and Expedition Everest quickly ended that. Even without a moving yeti.

Disney was rather content to let Disney's California Adventure coast as well. You had two things work against this plan. The first was the growing realization that Disney was pretty much done with its domestic theme parks and investment was going to be scaled back. This did not sit well with some on the Anaheim City Council and there were discussions moving forward to change the Anaheim Resort District to allow housing since growth was very much dependent on Disney and stagnating. The second was the Pixar acquisition that cost $7 billion and very much focused on John Lasseter who kept talking about theme parks, and Disneyland in particular. I still think had Disney known the plans to building housing so close to Disneyland were going to go bust that they never would have announced the big rebuild of Disney's California Adventure and would have significantly scaled back that project. Even now in hindsight it seems they probably could have gotten away with just building Cars Land.

I've said it a few time before and I'll say it again, almost every big "WOW!" project that has involved the Disney parks for the past decade has been driven by pressures external to The Walt Disney Company. This is most definitely true of the big investments into Disney's California Adventure and Hong Kong Disneyland.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

Kali is an E no doubt. But not much tech involved, which is what I was thinking of in my quote.

Everest? Not in my opinion. Could have and should have been though. Dark empty spaces, light leaks, visible structure knock it back. It's very good, but not great. If it had been a Matterhorn on steroids it'd be one of WDWs best.

Kali an E? Not in my book. D at best. Test Track a E, yes. Mission Space, D.KS is probably an E.

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

Disney was rather content to let Disney's California Adventure coast as well. You had two things work against this plan. The first was the growing realization that Disney was pretty much done with its domestic theme parks and investment was going to be scaled back. This did not sit well with some on the Anaheim City Council and there were discussions moving forward to change the Anaheim Resort District to allow housing since growth was very much dependent on Disney and stagnating. The second was the Pixar acquisition that cost $7 billion and very much focused on John Lasseter who kept talking about theme parks, and Disneyland in particular. I still think had Disney known the plans to building housing so close to Disneyland were going to go bust that they never would have announced the big rebuild of Disney's California Adventure and would have significantly scaled back that project. Even now in hindsight it seems they probably could have gotten away with just building Cars Land.

I've said it a few time before and I'll say it again, almost every big "WOW!" project that has involved the Disney parks for the past decade has been driven by pressures external to The Walt Disney Company. This is most definitely true of the big investments into Disney's California Adventure and Hong Kong Disneyland.

Interesting. I know things started turning around for DLR around/after 2003, when Space Mountain's much-needed refurbishment began and plans started coming together for DL's 50th. But it still took some time before the redo of DCA got moving, and I didn't know the full reasoning why.

If your main point is correct, then WDW is even more hopeless than I thought. It seems obvious to me that TDO isn't in a rush to make things happen at WDW, and if you're correct, they'll continue taking their time until external factors dictate otherwise. I think the fact that I agree with most of you (that WDW needs help) is getting lost here, simply because I don't think TDO is feeling the pressure.

 

[marni1971]

Interesting. I know things started turning around for DLR around/after 2003, when Space Mountain's much-needed refurbishment began
.

Back then remember though DL was in a worse mess than WDW is now.

The Space Mountain refurb wasn't exactly planned nor wanted by TDA.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Disney was rather content to let Disney's California Adventure coast as well. You had two things work against this plan. The first was the growing realization that Disney was pretty much done with its domestic theme parks and investment was going to be scaled back. This did not sit well with some on the Anaheim City Council and there were discussions moving forward to change the Anaheim Resort District to allow housing since growth was very much dependent on Disney and stagnating. The second was the Pixar acquisition that cost $7 billion and very much focused on John Lasseter who kept talking about theme parks, and Disneyland in particular. I still think had Disney known the plans to building housing so close to Disneyland were going to go bust that they never would have announced the big rebuild of Disney's California Adventure and would have significantly scaled back that project. Even now in hindsight it seems they probably could have gotten away with just building Cars Land.

I've said it a few time before and I'll say it again, almost every big "WOW!" project that has involved the Disney parks for the past decade has been driven by pressures external to The Walt Disney Company. This is most definitely true of the big investments into Disney's California Adventure and Hong Kong Disneyland.

As well as Shanghai's phase two which won't end up in a coffee table book.

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

Back then remember though DL was in a worse mess than WDW is now.

The Space Mountain refurb wasn't exactly planned nor wanted by TDA.

That's basically what I've been trying to say - DL needed the updates it got starting in 2003 (after years of abysmal leadership under Pressler and Harriss), and DCA needed something since the bandaid solutions (a bug's land, ToT, Mike & Sully, etc.) weren't making a huge difference. Attendance was still poor at DCA, and press was turning negative for DLR (possibly peaking with the Big Thunder Mountain accident).

Things only started improving for DLR when the resort hit rock bottom. That's why I expect WDW to get worse before it gets better. The parks simply aren't as much of a disaster as DL (in 2003), WDS, or DCA/HKDL after opening. So I don't understand what the disagreements are about. We all want WDW to improve, like the other Disney parks and Universal are currently doing.

 

[Smiddimizer]

They have the ability for incredible AA's (see Escape From Gringotts queue and Money Exchange store) but that would cost a lot of money to re-do all the JP dinos or to make a whole new ride with AA's.

The Gringotts goblins are the best they've done...but upon closer inspection you can see that their movement still is rather stiff and not as fluid as true A100s.

 

[Mike S]

The Gringotts goblins are the best they've done...but upon closer inspection you can see that their movement still is rather stiff and not as fluid as true A100s.

Yeah Universal still has some ground to cover when it comes to AA's. They still haven't really touched Disney's best work in that field (Jack Sparrow at the end of Pirates is still one of the best human figures I've ever seen).

 

[71jason]

Kali an E? Not in my book. D at best. Test Track a E, yes. Mission Space, D.KS is probably an E.

The fact this is up for debate at all proves the point. No one could argue Mansion or Big Thunder is anything but an E and keep a straight face.

 

[71jason]

A friend brought up an interesting philosophical debate last night: how many WDW fans (or UNI fans) are simply fans of themed entertainment in general versus being BRAND lovers? I think it is a fascinating question because it plays into so many things, including my fave -- mental illness.

How many Disney fans gave two blanks about Marvel before Disney purchased it? How many UNI fans really like the Transformers? How many Disney fans watch Nashville on ABC because it is owned by Mickey? How many UNI fans would rip some design choices at Cabana Bay if anyone but UNI built it? etc etc

This quote has stuck with me all day, largely for one reason--while it seems true online, it's not in the real world.

I know a lot of theme park fans/regular theme park-goers. Most have both WDW and Uni APs. If they don't, it's a question of economics--Uni is cheaper than WDW, or they work for the Mouse and can't afford a Uni AP, or they buy one this year, switch the next year (or when the kids hit 5). But I've never met a person who refuses to go to one or the other on principle.

There's a huge overlap in the fanbases as well. People who collect Disney are also, as a rule, obsessed with Potter; they all want a wand and to drink a Butterbeer. Again, can't think of a single exception, and I have a lot of Disney-collecting friends. At least the straight male Disney fans I know all can name a couple of Transformers. And everyone seems to like those silly Minions. There's a larger point here about obsession with childhood icons, but that's not what we're discussing today.

So ... why is online so different? The only thing I can figure is that a significant number of posters on boards like these and Twitter are either plants from Celebration/Burbank or "wannabe Lous" who think if they build up enough of an online presence eventually they'll get lucky and be invited to the gravy train of freebies. (Allowing for the percentage of annoying teens on any internet site who post just to be contrarian.) What's sad is that is what Disney's push toward social media has come down to, when it could be so much more.

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

So ... why is online so different? The only thing I can figure is that a significant number of posters on boards like these and Twitter are either plants from Celebration/Burbank or "wannabe Lous" who think if they build up enough of an online presence eventually they'll get lucky and be invited to the gravy train of freebies. (Allowing for the percentage of annoying teens on any internet site who post just to be contrarian.) What's sad is that is what Disney's push toward social media has come down to, when it could be so much more.

Instagram, too. I follow a few Disney 'lifestyler' accounts on Instagram because I enjoy the pictures, but some of them seriously believe WDW can do no wrong. Either that, or they're angling for free stuff as you suggested.