The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[Lee]

Not to digress from discussing the CNN report, but a bit of action went down somewhat quietly today that I think @WDW1974 might like to hear.

An individual (who will remain unnamed due to his deleting his FB and presumed request of privacy at this point), who was an annual passholder to the Universal Orlando parks, a reportedly "huge" fan and major Halloween Horror Nights fanatic, was banned from the resort (apparently permanently).

The details of the case are what makes it so interesting.

Yesterday, it would appear there was some sort of "incident" that prompted the attention of Universal team members. While the exact details are unclear due to a majority of the discussion (which was conducted on FB) was deleted, there appeared to be some rambunctious, over-the-top behavior (alcohol almost certainly involved and possibly linked to World Cup viewing at Finnegan's). A heated altercation took place between a team member (whose name I will also withhold) and this fan; it apparently intensified to the point where the team member threatened to kick the individual out (this is corroborated by various witnesses to the events). At this point, the guy cut his losses and left the park.

However, at some point later that day, the individual identified the team member on Facebook and publicly declared that he hoped she "dies and goes to hell." Now, horrifying by any account especially if the individual in question was being out of line for a family theme park setting, but as it turns out this wasn't any ordinary TM, but rather someone rather high up in the Universal Art & Design team. The post was tracked, and as of today, the individual learned of his ban when he failed to be able to use his annual pass to enter the park.

In the hours since (before his FB was deleted) he posted several statuses implying a threat of suicide, including quotes like "Universal and HHN were my life and now that they're gone I am as well." He has since allegedly decided to depart Orlando and (wisely) spend some time with his family. I want to clarify this is a fully grown, adult male.

There are several reasons I bring this case up. It reveals a rather ugly underbelly of Universal passholders who apparently treat the parks like a mall, not unlike a problem the Disneyland Resort has been dealing with the past several years - but unlike Disneyland Park, which does not serve liquor (though DCA does in limited capacities), the Uni parks serve fairly freely. These folks (some of whom I have encountered in person at various HHN events) literally base their lives around hanging out at these parks, and in many cases, drinking heavily at them. I don't mean to generalize, but I've personally witnessed many do it, and they all feed into each others' behavior acting like it isn't a big deal or unhealthy in any way. These parks *are* their lives.

Now, finally, there have been repercussions to this behavior. Some of the individual's friends have fairly called him out on the severity and ugliness of his actions - others have attempted to defend him almost to the point of lunacy. Everyone else seems to feel sympathy for the guy being banned rather than acknowledge how messed up his behavior was (and of course how he's reacting to it now!)

I will never understand anyone who moves to Orlando specifically to be around the theme parks (excluding those who are working there in high-level, salaried positions). I have a contempt for those who treat it as a personal bar and create a frankly unpleasant, creepy atmosphere for families and others just trying to enjoy the park, and the sense of entitlement that encroaches out of that. If you're an AP holder, live in the area, and visit often, great - but your actions have consequences and we need to all remember that we're in a family vacation destination, not some random cheap corner bar. It also doesn't matter how much money you've given Universal over the years... it does not give you a free pass to treat TMs of ANY sort (or any guest for that matter) so viciously and rudely.

I applaud Universal for doing the right thing and making sure this guy was banned; he and his ilk have no place in the Universal parks.

Fascinating...

 

[Next Big Thing]

I haven't seen Frozen, and have no plans to, but I really am unaware of any connection to the earth's seas or oceans.
Granted, TDS sometimes plays a bit loose with it's theme (though I think Mermaid fits) but that's no reason to throw fuel on the fire.

Fantasyland exists for a reason.

You don't just have to stick every Princess or fantasy related IP into Fantasyland. Sometimes there are better ways to fully utilize an IP, while improving other parks at the same time.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Perhaps...
But if I'm Disney, I'm having training classes, seminars, everything I could think of to at least make these people think twice, or three times, before actually doing it.

That one guy was worried about losing his job because he got caught in the sting. He shouldn't be worried about it, he should be certain of it. Certain enough that if you like your job, you will find a way to suppress your urges and maybe spend a moment reflecting on the issues you clearly have.

Honestly… Anyone who has any job in America who gets arrested for trying to touch a child, is going to lose their job. If you're naïve enough to think you can keep it? You have a larger issues at play.

Now we could go off on a tangent into Disney getting what they pay for when it comes to be my money they pay for frontline cast members but that's a different tangents and we disgusted at nausea him for the past six or seven years. Not worthy of our continued debate.

 

[lazyboy97o]

That's correct.

I think it should be very obvious that Disney (and UNI and SW) failed in hiring these individuals.

How did they fail? Were there prior convictions? Public statements? A pattern of accusations? The person who is able to accurately and appropriately go beyond what is known hasn't just fixed the problem for these organizations, but the world.

Just HOW is everyone responsible?

I agree your post is a sweet sentiment but how are you implementing protecting ALL the children. As a long term school board member I ask, just how do we do our jobs better? We run background checks, we have them printed and run the prints as does Disney. It comes back clean if they happen to be a creeper that has yet to be caught. I am interested in your specifics as to exactly what we do beyond being clairvoyant. What legal, noble efforts and procedures are you specifically proposing to protect our children further 'cause I can't entertain ideas that are illegal. I'm all ears.

I think he is talking more about the bigger issues of making sure we are all aware of warning signs as well as the factors that encourage so many victims to remain silent.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I am usually a lurker here, but the story is important enough that I am jumping in.

For me, the reason that this story matters so much is not because of what Disney knew or didn't know. Frankly, that is almost besides the point.

What matters is that there are pedophiles in the parks. Sure, maybe there are sexual predators in other places too, but most other businesses do not cater specifically to children. Parents need to be on guard that their children are not necessarily safe. They should not become so seduced by the "magic" that they lose their good judgment.

If the story makes parents think critically about who these people are under the masks, hugging their children, that is a good thing. We probably do need this sort of wake-up call.

My point here is that it goes far beyond Disney. It's in your church. It's in your civic organizations. It's in your schools. It's a larger societal issue that does not have an easy fix.

 

[Cesar R M]

It's part of a larger story. Teachers. Priests. Scout leaders. Anyone who is involved with children, actually.... Disney's part of it is a small part of a much larger story.

Child sex abuse is reaching epidemic proportions and that's the larger world view. Just no one is putting all of the pieces together and going all-in.

I honestly do not find it epidemic.
I'm fairly sure the proportions are the same (just like the rate of criminals and even things like homosexuality have a fixed rate). The issue is, now with the broad news and deep investigations.. its way easier to spread the information or to catch these criminals.
Before? they used to share their stuff via very tight personal groups or in many far far away countries.. now they do it via internet and their travels to sex paradises are more documented.

 

[John]

I'm paying very good attention.

People here are defending Disney or at very least attacking CNN (and myself) for talking about this subject. Disney isn't the victim here. Nor is UNI. Nor is SW.

Generally, I'd say this is the 'defending da man' BS that was popular when Wall Street and Big Business almost destroyed this country in 2008, but here we are talking about children and sexual predators. I'd rather err on the side of harming a $150 billion corp than a child. But that's just me and I am a cold heartless Spirit.

Just for the record......I am in no way supporting Disney or any other corporation on this issue. ( infact I didn't think that many of us were.....). I think I have to agree with Dave on this. After disclosing the problem the next step would be what hiring practices take place?. Is it lacking? Is there more they can do? I think what people is questioning is....."where is the smoking gun?" The difference is you know stuff.....you know lots of stuff. You may even know of a smoking gun. You are saying we are being pro-corporation when we are not armed with the same information you are. I think you saying we are " defending da man" isn't exactly fair.

 

[Cesar R M]

And that's discrimination. You might want to keep that under your hat especially if Disney is doing background checks on posters. Don't want to open yourself up to possible llitigation.

Are they seriously lowering themselves that much.. to try to get as much information from people in a fan site like they were criminals?

 

[Trauma]

So......

Even though this post is a bit awkward , since we are not gonna solve the problem of child abuse on a Disney Fan forum maybe we can instead have the bombshell news and discuss that and how it relates to Disney?

 

[Lee]

You don't just have to stick every Princess or fantasy related IP into Fantasyland.

Don't have to...but I'd prefer it.
Just talking about me, who has zero interest in princesses and little interest in cartoons as a whole, and likes the idea of keeping them as contained in one land as possible.

 

[englanddg]

Not to digress from discussing the CNN report, but a bit of action went down somewhat quietly today that I think @WDW1974 might like to hear.

An individual (who will remain unnamed due to his deleting his FB and presumed request of privacy at this point), who was an annual passholder to the Universal Orlando parks, a reportedly "huge" fan and major Halloween Horror Nights fanatic, was banned from the resort (apparently permanently).

The details of the case are what makes it so interesting.

Yesterday, it would appear there was some sort of "incident" that prompted the attention of Universal team members. While the exact details are unclear due to a majority of the discussion (which was conducted on FB) was deleted, there appeared to be some rambunctious, over-the-top behavior (alcohol almost certainly involved and possibly linked to World Cup viewing at Finnegan's). A heated altercation took place between a team member (whose name I will also withhold) and this fan; it apparently intensified to the point where the team member threatened to kick the individual out (this is corroborated by various witnesses to the events). At this point, the guy cut his losses and left the park.

However, at some point later that day, the individual identified the team member on Facebook and publicly declared that he hoped she "dies and goes to hell." Now, horrifying by any account especially if the individual in question was being out of line for a family theme park setting, but as it turns out this wasn't any ordinary TM, but rather someone rather high up in the Universal Art & Design team. The post was tracked, and as of today, the individual learned of his ban when he failed to be able to use his annual pass to enter the park.

In the hours since (before his FB was deleted) he posted several statuses implying a threat of suicide, including quotes like "Universal and HHN were my life and now that they're gone I am as well." He has since allegedly decided to depart Orlando and (wisely) spend some time with his family. I want to clarify this is a fully grown, adult male.

There are several reasons I bring this case up. It reveals a rather ugly underbelly of Universal passholders who apparently treat the parks like a mall, not unlike a problem the Disneyland Resort has been dealing with the past several years - but unlike Disneyland Park, which does not serve liquor (though DCA does in limited capacities), the Uni parks serve fairly freely. These folks (some of whom I have encountered in person at various HHN events) literally base their lives around hanging out at these parks, and in many cases, drinking heavily at them. I don't mean to generalize, but I've personally witnessed many do it, and they all feed into each others' behavior acting like it isn't a big deal or unhealthy in any way. These parks *are* their lives.

Now, finally, there have been repercussions to this behavior. Some of the individual's friends have fairly called him out on the severity and ugliness of his actions - others have attempted to defend him almost to the point of lunacy. Everyone else seems to feel sympathy for the guy being banned rather than acknowledge how messed up his behavior was (and of course how he's reacting to it now!)

I will never understand anyone who moves to Orlando specifically to be around the theme parks (excluding those who are working there in high-level, salaried positions). I have a contempt for those who treat it as a personal bar and create a frankly unpleasant, creepy atmosphere for families and others just trying to enjoy the park, and the sense of entitlement that encroaches out of that. If you're an AP holder, live in the area, and visit often, great - but your actions have consequences and we need to all remember that we're in a family vacation destination, not some random cheap corner bar. It also doesn't matter how much money you've given Universal over the years... it does not give you a free pass to treat TMs of ANY sort (or any guest for that matter) so viciously and rudely.

I applaud Universal for doing the right thing and making sure this guy was banned; he and his ilk have no place in the Universal parks.

1) It's not hard to get drunk at Disneyland. Not...at...all...and you don't even have to sneak anything in. Just a 10 minute walk to DTD.

2) If Universal or Disney didn't want to have these sorts of encounters, then they should have set up adult venues around their parks. If I'm there with my kid, I don't take her to La Cava (a bar) for an extended period (yeah, we'll have some salsa, guac and chips while I down a cucumber margarita or something and she has whatever virgin drink she chose, but I it's a bar...period...and she doesn't need to be there long. Venues we completely avoid? House of Blues and ESPN Zone. Why? These are adult environments that a) would probably bore her and b) I suspect would have activities not suited for her young eyes. Not much different than the now defunct Pleasure Island offerings.

3) Someone moving to Orlando to be near the parks is a perfectly valid motivation. These are the largest hospitality companies in the world, with significant advancement opportunities. It's a smart career move for many.

4) While I agree with your general assessment that the behaviour was poor, again I point to the fact that Disney and Universal both have encouraged this behaviour. In fact, DTD and Citywalk THRIVE on local business. It's Orlando's version of the Vegas strip, with far less debauchery. I don't expect to NOT see inebriated people there, and frankly, have been shocked how few I've seen.

I enjoy and appreciate the spirit of your post, but I find your "incident" rather lacking substance. A guy got drunk and impassioned, shot off his mouth, then (as is apt to happen with social media) shot off his mouth online.

The true measure of his character is far more than his comments on one night of debauchery. And the content of his contributions to the organization as a whole should not be judged as such. It was done for liability reasons, plain and simple.

The same reasons these environments were created in the first place. To collect and / or defend the almightly profits.

 

[Skip]

Fascinating...

Apparently the dude went ahead and deleted any "friend" who was willing to tell him his actions were horrifying and out of line and the punishment deserved, while "keeping" anyone who defended or sympathized with him. Talk about living in a bubble around yourself...

What's worse is these people have fetishized some Universal Art & Design members (most notably mainstay Michael Aiello) to the point where they refuse to criticize any of Universal's efforts (especially anything relating to HHN) and actually go out of their way to attempt to justify shoddy attractions with "Hey, A&D worked hard!" Now these professionals love the passion and appreciation from their fans (particularly the able-minded ones with lives of their own), but you can't really compartmentalize them - so they have an obligation to pander to the creepiest of them as well as the more secure ones. With this you also have an increased perception of proximity and even a falsified friendship, as these "local celebrities" are willing to "friend" you on Facebook and will occasionally comment in unofficial forums dedicated to their work. (For what it's worth, the individual who was banned was friends with Aiello.) I'm not blaming A&D here, to be clear - there isn't a whole lot they can do besides say nothing to anyone at all. It's just unfortunate how the situation has festered.

But it's the defending that really gets me. Man, can you imagine if people around here tried to justify Journey Into Your Imagination with "The Imagineers worked really hard!"?

 

[Cesar R M]

The Port Orleans CM was soliciting children (outside of WDW, according to CNN) from his computer at work at WDW.

ok then that's definitively wrong.

and I though they would be be blocking social sites and IM communication in a job environment???

According to earlier posts, the activity you're talking about did not happen at Port Orleans.

We're getting cross signals here.. was the guy DOING OR NOT DOING this illegal stuff in his workplace??

 

[cw1982]

Oh. Well I just got that off this fascinating article I just read on CNN.

Sorry. I misread that earlier post.

 

[englanddg]

Apparently the dude went ahead and deleted any "friend" who was willing to tell him his actions were horrifying and out of line and the punishment deserved, while "keeping" anyone who defended or sympathized with him. Talk about living in a bubble around yourself...

What's worse is these people have fetishized some Universal Art & Design members (most notably mainstay Michael Aiello) to the point where they refuse to criticize any of Universal's efforts (especially anything relating to HHN) and actually go out of their way to attempt to justify shoddy attractions with "Hey, A&D worked hard!" Now these professionals love the passion and appreciation from their fans (particularly the able-minded ones with lives of their own), but you can't really compartmentalize them - so they have an obligation to pander to the creepiest of them as well as the more secure ones. With this you also have an increased perception of proximity and even a falsified friendship, as these "local celebrities" are willing to "friend" you on Facebook and will occasionally comment in unofficial forums dedicated to their work. (For what it's worth, the individual who was banned was friends with Aiello.) I'm not blaming A&D here, to be clear - there isn't a whole lot they can do besides say nothing to anyone at all. It's just unfortunate how the situation has festered.

But it's the defending that really gets me. Man, can you imagine if people around here tried to justify Journey Into Your Imagination with "The Imagineers worked really hard!"?

Reading this, disregard my response to your post...

I think there are undertones I'm missing. <grin>

 

[stevehousse]

To skip back a few moments before this whole sex scandal took president, 24 was just awesome! Won't leak any spoilers but they have to come back for another season!

 

[lazyboy97o]

I honestly do not find it epidemic.
I'm fairly sure the proportions are the same (just like the rate of criminals and even things like homosexuality have a fixed rate). The issue is, now with the broad news and deep investigations.. its way easier to spread the information or to catch these criminals.
Before? they used to share their stuff via very tight personal groups or in many far far away countries.. now they do it via internet and their travels to sex paradises are more documented.

I agree that actual incidents have likely not have gone up, but what we do have is a better understand of how big the problems always has been.

 

[Cesar R M]

This I agree with. Yes you have mentioned those incidents and I always wondered why if true nothing was being done? In fact wasn't there pictures posted at one time.....around the time of the "twinkie" talk? Then they are being complicit? no?

I honestly believe Mr. Singer is very well protected, or he knows to clean his tracks better than Michael Jackson.

 

[Voice of Disney sanity]

Just for the record......I am in no way supporting Disney or any other corporation on this issue. ( infact I didn't think that many of us were.....). I think I have to agree with Dave on this. After disclosing the problem the next step would be what hiring practices take place?. Is it lacking? Is there more they can do? I think what people is questioning is....."where is the smoking gun?" The difference is you know stuff.....you know lots of stuff. You may even know of a smoking gun. You are saying we are being pro-corporation when we are not armed with the same information you are. I think you saying we are " defending da man" isn't exactly fair.

This whole thing would be different if the CMs were caught using WDW to advance thier sic agenda but even CNN didn't go there. I mean for that matter what is Disney doing to prevent pedophiles from visiting the parks? I see no screening of customers in place to prevent these sickos from lining up in ques with kids at all. So using this same logic disney is responsible for those arrested for the same crimes that have visited the parks. Sorry unless Disney is shown to have prior knowledge I don't see how this is news

 

[cw1982]

To skip back a few moments before this whole sex scandal took president, 24 was just awesome! Won't leak any spoilers but they have to come back for another season!

Go look at my posts earlier in the evening and those that surround it... I think you'll find people who agree