The Spirited Back Nine ...

mahnamahna101

Well-Known Member
Well, it sounds like the potential for a new Cars dark ride might be the "people eater" for the Pixar expansion. If they do that plus TSPL, then that's some decent added capacity. Maybe.
I could survive if the Pixar expansion is something like this...

TSPL - $75 million (3 B-tickets)
TSMM 3rd track - $50 million
Cars dark ride (1800-2200 riders per hour) - $150 million (1 D ticket)
relocated Laugh Floor - $50 million (1 C ticket)
rethemed Bug's Life playground - $30 million (1 A ticket)
Heimlich's Chew Chew Train (expanded and a couple show scenes) - $45 million (1 C ticket)
room for Monsters door coaster and Incredibles E-ticket later on (2020 and beyond) - $400 million to $500 million between the two of them. (1 D and 1 E)

1 D-ticket, 3 C-tickets, 3 B tickets, and 1 A ticket... 8 attractions and Pixar Place actually fits its namesake.

Only $400 million out of the $1.2-1.5 billion slated for the DHS makeover. That's without an E-ticket.

Considering SWL is only rumored to be a spinner, Mos Eisley Cantina and 1 E, they could probably find some money for a Pixar-themed E if they're willing to pony up.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Don't hold your breath.
It's likely it will be open in 2016. In Paris they broke ground sometime late in 2009 and the land opened in August 2010. Less than a year to build. If they officially break ground in January as Spirit reported they could be done as early as Christmas 2015. If the bulk of the work really doesn't start until after Easter they should still have no problem hitting "sometime" in 2016.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
DHS's Toy Story Playland will be the equivalent of DCA's a bug's land.

Sure they're not E-Ticket attractions, but we need more A,B, and C tickets at DHS like MK to eat up the crowds.

That's how I tend to think of it. A Bug's Land was simply the first (very early) step in a major overhaul that DCA needed. Adding some flat rides to DHS is a good idea, as long as it is just the beginning of what will be done in the next half decade.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I could survive if the Pixar expansion is something like this...

TSPL - $75 million (3 B-tickets)
TSMM 3rd track - $50 million
Cars dark ride (1800-2200 riders per hour) - $150 million (1 D ticket)
relocated Laugh Floor - $50 million (1 C ticket)
rethemed Bug's Life playground - $30 million (1 A ticket)
Heimlich's Chew Chew Train (expanded and a couple show scenes) - $45 million (1 C ticket)
room for Monsters door coaster and Incredibles E-ticket later on (2020 and beyond) - $400 million to $500 million between the two of them. (1 D and 1 E)

1 D-ticket, 3 C-tickets, 3 B tickets, and 1 A ticket... 8 attractions and Pixar Place actually fits its namesake.

Only $400 million out of the $1.2-1.5 billion slated for the DHS makeover. That's without an E-ticket.

Considering SWL is only rumored to be a spinner, Mos Eisley Cantina and 1 E, they could probably find some money for a Pixar-themed E if they're willing to pony up.
Laid out this way it is easy to see that there is plenty of money for at least 1 dark ride in addition to the Playland. Probably 2.

I wouldn't mind seeing an extended train ride as well.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
The Toy Story area might end up looking cute and the rides may even be fun (it could happen!), but looking over what's been proposed, it seems to me that all of these options appear to be pretty low-capacity, not a people-eater among them. Am I wrong in this assessment? If so, please speak up! And should this be a concern, or am I just looking for trouble where it doesn't exist?

No one knows any specifics. Even @WDW1974 isnt going into detail. People are assuming whats coming based on whats in other parks. I dont know any specifics than anyone else. I'm more going to sit back and enjoy the ride rather than play armchair imagineer.
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
It's likely it will be open in 2016. In Paris they broke ground sometime late in 2009 and the land opened in August 2010. Less than a year to build. If they officially break ground in January as Spirit reported they could be done as early as Christmas 2015. If the bulk of the work really doesn't start until after Easter they should still have no problem hitting "sometime" in 2016.

There's no infrastructure or show buildings needed, the rides themselves are off-the-shelf, so it shouldn't take too long at all to build with any logic, but this is TDO we are talking about, think of a number and double it when it comes to construction times.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
There's no infrastructure or show buildings needed, the rides themselves are off-the-shelf, so it shouldn't take too long at all to build with any logic, but this is TDO we are talking about, think of a number and double it when it comes to construction times.

Heck, if TSPL is the plan, they could be building the components of rides off site as we speak, ready to install once the land if cleared and prepped.

The bigger time barrier would probably be removing all of the Backlot Tour stuff, more than the actual building/instillation of the TSPL rides.

I do think that TDO will want to put some stuff in sooner rather than later just to increase capacity after all the closures. Probably wouldn't hurt to have some additional choices for FP+ as well (RC Racer, if added, would be a definite for that IMHO, probably Woody's Mater's Jamboree as well). I think they could put this in by the end of 2015 if they were motivated -- we'll see if they are.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the backup--sort of. We like and have been coming to WDW for forty years. However, there are lots of things we don't care for that the powers that be have done or not done over the years. Plus there are a couple of current practices we find very annoying. (To say the least.)

That said, we tend to see things in shades of gray, not just in black and white. There are many reasons from corporate practices, demographics of the visiting public, to an ever changing society to explain why things are the way they are or perceived to be. We may not like all the reasons or practices involved, but that does not change the fact that they are there and we are, at least for the time being, stuck with them. Given time, all things do change. Will all of us like the changes? Probably not.

After reading well over three hundred pages of Spirit posts and replies, one thing found is that some posters seem to take great offense if they think someone does not agree with their position on whatever. They are certainly entitled to feel as they do, but others should also be allowed to have an opinion or make an observation without essentially being told they belong elsewhere or that they are flat out wrong. That fits no definition of a "discussion" of which I am aware. If this observation makes me a thorn in someone's side, so be it.
Please recall your original post that started this particular discussion:

News Flash! Life is too short to focus on what is wrong with things in an amusement park. People are supposed to go there to enjoy themselves. If they can no longer enjoy the experience, they shouldn't be there. Of course, some people's enjoyment may be in the act of finding fault.

To be fair, with increasing crowds, the necessary amount of planning and never ending extra costs, enjoyment is becoming somewhat harder to find even without focusing on entertainment, attractions and rides.

However, no matter what they do or don't do,the parks are never going to please everyone, but a person can focus on what is coming that may be better to their liking. Look for the positives.​

Effectively, your opinion is that everyone should stop complaining because "life is too short".

Yet in your most recent post, you write "others should also be allowed to have an opinion or make an observation without essentially being told they belong elsewhere or that they are flat out wrong". Effectively, you're telling everyone that you should have the right to express your opinion of other people's opinions, but that no one else has the right to express their opinion about your opinion.

You seem to be applying a double-standard. It appears you want to critique others yet expect no one to critique you.

The upside of a discussion forum such as this is that people are allowed to express varying opinions on many Disney-related topics as long as the discussion remains relatively civil, even if it becomes passionate.

The downside of a discussion forum such as this is that not everyone is going to agree with you. In fact, sometimes others will vehemently disagree with you.

Discussion means exactly that: discussion.

If you start a discussion, then I respectfully suggest you mentally prepare yourself for the idea that others might discuss it. Taking this one step further, I also suggest that you mentally prepare yourself for the idea that others might not agree with you.

I'll disagree with your original post and suggest that life is too short not to complain. Any consumer who doesn't complain about a product that is not to her or his liking is a fool. Quoting what you wrote, no consumer should ever feel they are "stuck with them". That's not how the free-market works.

I'll take it one step further and suggest that in a free-market economy, customer complaints often are highly beneficial to the company receiving them. How am I supposed to know how to improve my product (and sell more!) if the customer doesn't provide feedback? I'd much rather have them tell me what's wrong and have the chance to keep their business, rather than them go silent and lose their business. I'll also suggest that people are naive if they think Disney doesn't monitor discussion forums such as these.

My opinion might not be to your liking. That's OK; I'm ready for your response.

Before I post something, I usually run through a mental exercise, asking myself: "What are the potential reactions and how will I respond?" Sometimes, I have drafted and then deleted posts without hitting the "Post Reply" button after deciding that I didn't have the inclination to go through the resulting mental thrust-and-parry swordplay.

If you believe you have a right to express your opinion on these threads, then I suggest that others have the right to express theirs, and they might do so in a way that's not to your liking.

Please apply the same standards to others as you apply to yourself. :)
 
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Mickey_777

Well-Known Member
FWIW, I rather prefer the Disney child swap to Uni's. My children got scared in some of the Uni queues and just wanted to leave and it also means that the child has to be waiting in a line, but doesn't get the reward of actually riding the ride. Conceptually, I agree with the fairness of Uni's system, but the experience is not as ideal when you have the small child who cannot ride.

Same thing happened to us. We visited Uni twice within 6 months and their policy changed from one visit to the next. In the fall for Potter FJ, we were let thru the single rider line I believe, and my wife waited with our son in the baby swap room next to the loading area while I rode. Quick and pain free (essential when travelling with a not yet potty trained toddler). But when we went back in May, we were told all 3 of us were to wait in the standard queue and once getting to the front, wifey was to wait with baby in the baby swap area. What? Why? At that point she said "forget it" and never rode. I got on because what else was I gonna do at that point. We understand it's their park and they have the right to change it at any time but it put a definite damper on our visit to the point we have no plan on returning for the time being. Even with all the DA stuff, we wont' be going back while our son is still a toddler...at least. Disney is much for flexible and logical when it comes to this. I don't doubt some cheat the system but those of us who need it certainly appreciate it. Heck, even Busch Gardens Williamsburg lets one spouse wait outside of the queue with the child until the other gets off.
 

NeedMoreMickey

Well-Known Member
I'm all caught up on the thread. ONly started reading it because Bay Hill was mentioned and I go there every year for the golf tournament. Watch golf during the day hit the parks at night. First time that has ever benn caught up on the thread, so what do I do now?
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
Same thing happened to us. We visited Uni twice within 6 months and their policy changed from one visit to the next. In the fall for Potter FJ, we were let thru the single rider line I believe, and my wife waited with our son in the baby swap room next to the loading area while I rode. Quick and pain free (essential when travelling with a not yet potty trained toddler). But when we went back in May, we were told all 3 of us were to wait in the standard queue and once getting to the front, wifey was to wait with baby in the baby swap area. What? Why? At that point she said "forget it" and never rode. I got on because what else was I gonna do at that point. We understand it's their park and they have the right to change it at any time but it put a definite damper on our visit to the point we have no plan on returning for the time being. Even with all the DA stuff, we wont' be going back while our son is still a toddler...at least. Disney is much for flexible and logical when it comes to this. I don't doubt some cheat the system but those of us who need it certainly appreciate it. Heck, even Busch Gardens Williamsburg lets one spouse wait outside of the queue with the child until the other gets off.

Let me see if I have this straight- the three of you were wanting to wait in the single rider line and use child swap?
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Or they could establish and adhere to a stringent fire weather data program that keeps real time weather conditions to record temperature, wind speed and direction, relative humidity and other pertinent information. When weather conditions are not suitable for a fireworks show (or if conditions deteriorate during a show) they can stop the fireworks in the interest of guest safety.

THIS - It's not rocket science folks, Easy enough to put this under computer control to pause the show if wind conditions change to enhance guest safety and announce this to the guests. Yes it may 'ruin' a few shows but imagine what would happen if a stroller was set afire by a off course firework and a kid got hurt. That would be the END of pyro at WDW (just like Monorail pilot rides - BTW STILL available at DL).
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I could survive if the Pixar expansion is something like this...

TSPL - $75 million (3 B-tickets)
TSMM 3rd track - $50 million
Cars dark ride (1800-2200 riders per hour) - $150 million (1 D ticket)
relocated Laugh Floor - $50 million (1 C ticket)
rethemed Bug's Life playground - $30 million (1 A ticket)
Heimlich's Chew Chew Train (expanded and a couple show scenes) - $45 million (1 C ticket)
room for Monsters door coaster and Incredibles E-ticket later on (2020 and beyond) - $400 million to $500 million between the two of them. (1 D and 1 E)

1 D-ticket, 3 C-tickets, 3 B tickets, and 1 A ticket... 8 attractions and Pixar Place actually fits its namesake.

Only $400 million out of the $1.2-1.5 billion slated for the DHS makeover. That's without an E-ticket.

Considering SWL is only rumored to be a spinner, Mos Eisley Cantina and 1 E, they could probably find some money for a Pixar-themed E if they're willing to pony up.

UNI can build on budgets like that but not WDW, Remember Mermaid was rumored to be north of 200 Million (which included most of the rockwork in NFL)
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
UNI can build on budgets like that but not WDW, Remember Mermaid was rumored to be north of 200 Million (which included most of the rockwork in NFL)
Per @whylightbulb
Thank you for the kind words. Of course the only reason I'm unafraid is because of the anonimity :). The irony is that some of the people I'm targeting in my critique will be and have been helpful in getting work for my company.

I'd like to address what you say in your first paragraph. One of the things that empowers mediocrity with respect to the Disney product is the acceptance of past mediocrity. I have no doubt that the general public will enjoy the ride. They do not know any better and do not know what they do not know. From your posts however you seem intelligent and in-the-know when it comes to the Disney product. You do know that Disney is just getting by and being lazy in certain respects. If the public is going to enjoy it anyway why try harder? If people like you do not speak up Management will continue to approve lackluster product. They do read these boards.

Thanks again. I have more to say on this ride but I didn't want to go too far with one post. I did think the Scuttle scene, descent, and Ursula were good enough. Kiss The Girl and Ariel's first scene were okay but not amazing. Everything else was less than impressive in my opinion. King Triton was way off scale in comparison to the window display dolls around him. Ariel and Eric on the balcony was a missed opportunity for a nice emotional wrap up. The Ursula silhouette and the heart effect were obvously cheap cop outs and very disappointing.

I was not involved in the budget or project management of Mermaid but based on my experience I would bet that the budget didn't reach $100 Million. If it came close than it's another example of massive WDI waste and poor allocation of funds. If you gave me $100 Million to do a Mermaid ride I promise it would exceed your expectations and put this ride to shame.

Of course it's not always money that makes a better ride. A great example is Sinbad from TDS. The original version was okay but nowhere near the impact of the current revamped version. The funny thing (maybe even a bit ironic since Alan Menken was involved in both Mermaid and Sinbad) is the same basic layout, infrastructure, sets and AAs were used. The main thing that was changed was the addition of Alan Menken's amazing score. That one "minor" tweak that cost Disney about $250,000 for the score and under a million to record and implement it transformed the ride from okay to spectacular. Most guests don't even know why they leave the current version emotionally satisfied but used to exit the original without giving the experience a second thought. Mermaid leaves me empty and thinking how much more it could have been. Very sad indeed.

Another great post which explains the difference between WDI and UNI.
I have written about this issue in several of my previous posts so I'll try not to repeat myself.

Having worked for both WDI and Universal Creative I can answer your last question. WDI is made up of several layers of management and numerous useless job slots that each have to justify their existence. UC has some of that but not nearly as much. So not only does the company (and every paying theme park customer) have to pay for these jobs but they also have to subsidize the money these useless workers spend to justify their jobs at the expense of better quality attractions.

One example off the top of my head involved a mid-level mangager that had no business getting involved in any creative decisions. He decided that the color of some rockwork was off and had several new mockups ordered, costing thousands of dollars in manhours and materials, just so he could say he chose the new colors. In the end I believe one color was changed a slight shade that perhaps .0001% of the population would be able to identify. Believe me this is just one small example of a massive problem at WDI. The meetings, lunches, expense accounts and all the manhours wasted could be reduced significantly to result in a higher quality product since that money would be redirected toward the actual attraction.

Another issue that affects the quality output is the quality of the designers themselves. WDI is staffed with some extremely talented and capable designers but, unfortunately today from what I've seen, that is the exception rather than the rule. If you were to look at some of the portfolios you would scratch your head and wonder how, with all the talent out there that would love to grab a WDI job slot, these people ever made it through. Just because someone graduates from a good school or comes from a high position in another company doesn't necessarily mean they are the best out there. Like so many big companies today hiring decisions are made based on too much HR criteria and not enough on pure talent.

The problems that the foregoing lead to are evident in the final product. But the new less than talented designers are not the only problem. The senior staff in many cases do not know how to be creative when faced with a smaller budget. They can only be very creative when design challenges occur knowing that the money will be there to help. Most of them have never had to work with regional park size budgets and therefore do not think in terms of entertainment value for every dollar spent.

I realize I'm writing a lot of negative here so let me say some positive regarding WDI. There is no other organization on the face of this planet that has more potential to produce product that will amaze and delight theme park audiences. Some of the most talented people in the industry still work there. I still have faith that one day they will once again create an attraction that will astound visitors instead of leaving them with merely an acceptable impression. They have a lot of work and a lot of changes to make before that can happen.

Having said all that I'd like to point out that Universal Creative has many of its own problems. In fact I'd go so far to say that if it were not for Warner Brothers and J.K. Potter would have ended up several notches below its current quality rating. Many times when something works with Universal it is an absolute accident. Most of their design and production is outsourced and UC provides very little direction in their bid packages campared to when WDI uses vendors. That is one way UC gets away with smaller budgets but it will often times lead to muddled design and inferior product. Because UC relies on outsourcing so much and because they don't have an inhouse R&D department they are limited to what they can find with companies on their rolodex. Several harmful relationships with "favorite" companies have in many cases limited them when better options were available.

Of course I could go on and on but I think this partially answers your question.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I'm all caught up on the thread. ONly started reading it because Bay Hill was mentioned and I go there every year for the golf tournament. Watch golf during the day hit the parks at night. First time that has ever benn caught up on the thread, so what do I do now?

Enjoy the madness like the rest of us, you seem to be doing well along those lines so far :-) as you have not run away screaming :-)
 

Mickey_777

Well-Known Member
Let me see if I have this straight- the three of you were wanting to wait in the single rider line and use child swap?

Not necessarily. If I could have used the standard queue while my wife waited with our child outside, that'd been fine. We were expecting for it to work as it did in the fall which may or may not have been proper procedure at the time. If that's the case then there are inconsistencies in their procedures and that's unfortunate for us visitors.
 

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